How do you guys invest?

[pantaiema]

True, but foreign brokers from offshore are not allowed to operate in Indonesia. That means that most of their websites are in geoblock and you cannot access them, or they will in many cases refuse to register your account if you are an Indonesian resident.
However, if you can access some of them from here it is probably legal.

People in Indonesia access them using VPN. The last one I heard GoTrade where you could buy International stocks and allow frational shares is allowed in Indonesia. I have not done a dip due Diligences (DDs). So those who want to try please do your own DDs before jumping into the water.

 

[pantaiema]

These are not robot trading companies, but boiler rooms, just a platform simulating the trading while there is no actual trade. Otherwise, somebody would get a Nobel prize for economics already.

Investment scam: I lost $50,000 in fake online trading

Be suspicious of investment opportunities that promise a high return with little or no risk, and don't let anyone pressure you into making decisions about your money or investments.

www.scamwatch.gov.au

Unlike many bogus robot trading in Indonesia who claim to make a return of 20% a month (e,g 240% pa) Jim Simmons, the trading/investment Legend get "constantly" for decades average annualised return of only 66%. Jim Simmons was a well known maths Professor at MIT. When he founded Renaissance Technologies he together with the people he employed, who are among the best people in maths to design the algorithm by adapting the Existing Markov Chain probabilistic model to crack the stock market problem. This is not gambling as it is based on probability.

Medallion isn’t magic…probably

Jim Simons recently participated in three interviews hosted by MIT, covering mathematics, finance, and philanthropy: Part 1: Mathematics Part 2: Finance Part 3: Philanthropy These are rare and lengthy conversations with one of the industry’s most interesting and private people. As much as I...

www.bridgealternatives.com

Yes, some ordinary people, if they are lucky could get 100%+ return a year, but getting 100%+ consistently is entirely a different story.

As in the previous example in this thread If you start investing during the start of COVID-19 pandemic March 2020 in S&P500 and close your position in December 2021 last year you would have made 100%+ return. But for those who start investing in January 2022. Let alone if you are investing in high growth stocks. you might see your return down -70% to this date. But again if you started investing in Oil and Gas since December 2021 you would have made a good return.

Trading is a zero sum game. So for sensible people who believe they are better than Jim Simmons or own a magic robot which make a return of 240% consistently, will not sell their robots, as they will get more competitors in the market equalising their competitive advantage, which in turn will reduce their potential return.

Alternatively, they could consider bringing those evidences in front of professionals in investment bankings/traders. There are platforms for traders around the world to compete with and they give you free small amount of money to play with. If you win you get award and might get recruited by investment bankers. If these investment bankers saw those evidence and get convinced, they will have no hesitation to employ these people on commission basis and give them billion of dollars to play with to turn into trillions in just a few years..

If you just trade / Invest $100,000 using a platform with allow leverage of 200X, 20% monthly compounding; You will become a billionaire in 2 years.

 

[centurion]

People in Indonesia access them using VPN. The last one I heard GoTrade where you could buy International stocks and allow frational shares is allowed in Indonesia. I have not done a dip due Diligences (DDs). So those who want to try please do your own DDs before jumping into the water.

You can access them only through VPN as the foreign brokers are not allowed to operate in Indonesia, otherwise, they would not be on internet geoblock.

 

[centurion]

So are you accusing PT Cyber Futures of being a scam, a boiler room etc etc?
Just so we are clear?
Because the company I use (PT CFF) is NOT a boiler room, they are a legitimate company with an office and staff and regulated and licensed by OJK and Stock exchange, they use Meta Trader 4 / 5 platform, all the bank accounts are segregated / isolated etc etc and I know a lot of the staff and even some of their clients.

I can assure you I did my due diligence.

Yes I agree a lot of scams, but this company is NOT one of them.

@pantaiema mentioned these guys " ...Binary options, Robo Trading such as Fahrenheit, DNA Pro, (NET89, ATG/ATC will probably follow..". These are legitimate crooks.
The ones that you use are registered commodity brokers (as Forex, gold, foreign stocks/indexes CFDs are under Commodity Futures Trading Regulatory Agency (BAPPEBTI)).

 

[centurion]

Unlike many bogus robot trading in Indonesia who claim to make a return of 20% a month (e,g 240% pa) Jim Simmons, the trading/investment Legend get "constantly" for decades average annualised return of only 66%. Jim Simmons was a well known maths Professor in MIT. When he founded Renaissance Technologies he together with the people he employed, who are among the best people in maths to design the algorithm by adapting the Existing Markov Chain probabilistic model to crack the stock market problem. This is not gambling as it is based on probability.

Medallion isn’t magic…probably

Jim Simons recently participated in three interviews hosted by MIT, covering mathematics, finance, and philanthropy: Part 1: Mathematics Part 2: Finance Part 3: Philanthropy These are rare and lengthy conversations with one of the industry’s most interesting and private people. As much as I...

www.bridgealternatives.com

Yes, some ordinary people, if they are lucky could get 100%+ return a year, but getting 100%+ consistently is entirely a different story.

As in the previous example in this thread If you start investing during the start of COVID-19 pandemic March 2020 in S&P500 and close your position in December 2021 last year you would have made 100%+ return. But for those who start investing in January 2022. Let alone if you are investing in high growth stocks. you might see your return down -70% to this date. But again if you started investing in Oil and Gas since December 2021 you would have made a good return.

Trading is a zero sum game. So for sensible people who believe they are better than Jim Simmons or own a magic robot which make a return of 240% consistently, will not sell their robots, as they will get more competitors in the market equalising their competitive advantage, which in turn will reduce their potential return.

Alternatively, they could consider bringing those evidences in front of professionals in investment bankings/traders. There are platforms for traders around the world to compete with and they give you free small amount of money to play with. If you win you get award and might get recruited by investment bankers. If these investment bankers saw those evidence and get convinced, they will have no hesitation to employ these people on commission basis and give them billion of dollars to play with to turn into trillions in just a few years..

If you just trade / Invest $100,000 using a platform with allow leverage of 200X, 20% monthly compounding; You will become a billionaire in 2 years.

View attachment 2485

View attachment 2486

Things are not so simple with experts, they can be tricky too.
There was a fund called LTCP(Long Term Capital Management), run by Nobel prize winners Sholes and Merton, together with wizards from Wall Street. They imploded in such a manner that the US government had to bail them out to not cause an impact on the economy or recession. They lost 90% or more of the fund value.
And the trading is not a zero-sum game because you have trading costs.

 

[snpark]

Watch "the big short"

 

[pantaiema]

Things are not so simple with experts, they can be tricky too.
There was a fund called LTCP(Long Term Capital Management), run by Nobel prize winners Sholes and Merton, together with wizards from Wall Street. They imploded in such a manner that the US government had to bail them out to not cause an impact on the economy or recession. They lost 90% or more of the fund value.
And the trading is not a zero-sum game because you have trading costs.

I agree, being experts in Finance and Economics, Financial Mathematics does not automatically make people good Traders or Hedge fund managers.
There are a lot of well known professors teaching game theories, finance, portfolio management at the well known universities. Not to mention Nobel price laureates in economics, yet they still underperform the market when come to their own investments, never mind if compared to acute Hedge fund managers, traders. There is still a big gap adapting hypothetical basis which is assuming the market is efficient (e.g Efficient Market Hypothesis, EMH) into the real market which is far from efficient.

I describe Trading, e.g mainly short term trading such as day trading as a zero sum game, as for someone to win at one particular time time, there will be people lose their money at the other end. I agree there is trading costs, so like gambling where casinos always win, in trading the brokers always win, as they make money from both the people who win and the people who lose in this game.

Zero-Sum Game Definition in Finance, With Example

A zero-sum game is a situation in which one person’s gain is equivalent to another’s loss, so that the net change in wealth or benefit is zero.

www.investopedia.com

 

[pantaiema]

This is the profile of Indrasari Wisnu Wardhana. In Indonesian but You could use google translate to get the idea in this article.

2 Kali Berurusan dengan KPK, Ini Rekam Jejak Indrasari Wisnu Wardhana Tersangka Mafia Minyak Goreng

Indrasari Wisnu Wardhana dietapkan sebagai salah satu tersangka dugaan kasus korupsi minyak goreng. Berikut rekam jejak Indrasari Wisnu Wardhana.

www.suara.com

He is the temporary chief of BAPPEBTI, e.g Indonesian regulatory agency that roughly translates to the Commodities and Futures Trading Regulatory Agency. Bappepti is equivalent of SEC in the US.
As chief of BAPPEBTI, he supposed to know a lot of in ponzi / pyramid scheme illegal Binary, Robot trading in Indonesia where a lot of people have lost their money. He is currently arrested for graft case involving Indonesian Cooking Oil Export. There is a strong suspicion he might be behind the illegal practice of Binary option, Robo Trading to prosper in Indonesia.

Previously there is also major graft cases in IDX, Indonesia stock Exchange which came earlier last year,e.g Jiwasraya, Asabri cases.

 

[centurion]

This is the profile of Indrasari Wisnu Wardhana. In Indonesian but You could use google translate to get the idea in this article.

2 Kali Berurusan dengan KPK, Ini Rekam Jejak Indrasari Wisnu Wardhana Tersangka Mafia Minyak Goreng

Indrasari Wisnu Wardhana dietapkan sebagai salah satu tersangka dugaan kasus korupsi minyak goreng. Berikut rekam jejak Indrasari Wisnu Wardhana.

www.suara.com

He is the temporary chief of BAPPEBTI, e.g Indonesian regulatory agency that roughly translates to the Commodities and Futures Trading Regulatory Agency. Bappepti is equivalent of SEC in the US.
As chief of BAPPEBTI, he supposed to know a lot of in ponzi / pyramid scheme illegal Binary, Robot trading in Indonesia where a lot of people have lost their money. He is currently arrested for graft case involving Indonesian Cooking Oil Export. There is a strong suspicion he might be behind the illegal practice of Binary option, Robo Trading to prosper in Indonesia.

Previously there is also major graft cases in IDX, Indonesia stock Exchange which came earlier last year,e.g Jiwasraya, Asabri cases.

BAPPEBTI is not equivalent to SEC, it is equivalent to CFTC-Commodity Futures Trading Commission.

 

[make_batik_great_again]

You can access them only through VPN as the foreign brokers are not allowed to operate in Indonesia, otherwise, they would not be on internet geoblock.

Maybe it depends on where you originally come from. Or more precise: Where your broker is located. The websites of all the banks/broker that I know are accessable from Indonesia without VPN. But as far as I know, some of them will close your account when moving to Indonesia (probably because it is too complicated for them to continue...process of verifying your place of residence, considering tax treaties etc.).

But there seem to be one or two banks/broker that also seem to allow you to continue being their customer. But those are not the cheapest banks/broker

 

[make_batik_great_again]

You need to consult your own tax consultant, this is not financial advice, etc. :

1. Indonesia charges a flat rate (PPh final) of 10% for dividends. Since it is PPh final, it doesn't take into account your income levels etc.
2. Starting this year, Indonesia waives dividend taxes if you invest it in almost any vehicle (even just leaving it in a bank account) in Indonesia for 3 years.
3. You need to figure out how US tax treaty with Indonesia handles dividends, if any.

In the meantime, I went to the tax office and asked them a few questions about the taxation of overseas investment. Referring to your first statement (10% on dividends): That seems to be the case for Indonesian-sourced dividends only. The officer at the tax office told me that dividends from overseas (foreign stocks etc.) are not taxed 10% flat, but taxed as regular income. So, overseas dividends are added to your regular income (from working etc.) and then taxed by your usual income tax rate.

 

[dafluff]

In the meantime, I went to the tax office and asked them a few questions about the taxation of overseas investment. Referring to your first statement (10% on dividends): That seems to be the case for Indonesian-sourced dividends only. The officer at the tax office told me that dividends from overseas (foreign stocks etc.) are not taxed 10% flat, but taxed as regular income. So, overseas dividends are added to your regular income (from working etc.) and then taxed by your usual income tax rate.

Correct, I should have been more clear. PPh final only applies to any source of income directly taxed at the time of transaction. This is by its nature only applicable to sources from Indonesia (Banking interests, dividends and stock sale in Indonesia, sale of property in Indonesia, etc).

Alternatively, starting Feb 2021, all dividends can be tax-free if invested in Indonesia for 3 years in approved vehicles (very large selection available). Relevant decree here: https://www.pajakku.com/tax-guide/12203/PER_MENKEU/18/PMK.03/2021

 

[make_batik_great_again]

Correct, I should have been more clear. PPh final only applies to any source of income directly taxed at the time of transaction. This is by its nature only applicable to sources from Indonesia (Banking interests, dividends and stock sale in Indonesia, sale of property in Indonesia, etc).

Alternatively, starting Feb 2021, all dividends can be tax-free if invested in Indonesia for 3 years in approved vehicles (very large selection available). Relevant decree here: https://www.pajakku.com/tax-guide/12203/PER_MENKEU/18/PMK.03/2021

Yes, that is a good point. I also asked the officer about the omnibus law where this reinvestment-regulation is from. She seemed not to have heard about it. But after asking her supervisor she told me that my information is correct - there is no tax on overseas dividends if reinvested for 3 years in Indonesia.

If what she told me is correct, then this rule applies for overseas dividends, but not for capital gains (e.g. selling a stock with profit). I don‘t know if that is really correct.

Thank you for the link. I will try to translate and read that later, still working on my Bahasa Indonesia skills

 

[pantaiema]

Maybe it depends on where you originally come from. Or more precise: Where your broker is located. The websites of all the banks/broker that I know are accessable from Indonesia without VPN. But as far as I know, some of them will close your account when moving to Indonesia (probably because it is too complicated for them to continue...process of verifying your place of residence, considering tax treaties etc.).

But there seem to be one or two banks/broker that also seem to allow you to continue being their customer. But those are not the cheapest banks/broker

It is important to differentiate between the online trading/investing platforms with online bankings.
Unless you tell them that you are moving abroad permanently or they get to know you, many people could still access their online banking from abroad without VPN. But this is entirely different with trading, investing platforms which are not authorised by Bapepam (Indonesian Supervisory Agency for Capital Market and Financial Institutions). Vast majority of the main, well known trading/investing are not accessible from Indonesia without VPN.

 

[jstar]

We finally know how all of these bogus Binary options, Robo Trading such as Fahrenheit, DNA Pro, (NET89, ATG/ATC will probably follow) have ended up now ?? It is an apparent danger of investing using investment platform in Indonesia. The watchdogs, the regulators are always lagging behind the scammers. And it seems so many youngsters in Indonesia are not using their rationals to make such an important decision. They have been blindfolded by getting rich quicker. 80/20 win rate, 20% a month return ? OMG less than a minute search you will find that even the best traders on earth, the billionaire investors such as Warren Buffet, Peter Lynch, Jim Simmons can not get that return.

Many people here lost a lot of money with that robo(t) crap. Even in my family-in-law. At first they were proud but after some time you didn’t hear them bragging no longer and then they didn’t want to talk about it anymore.

Keep in mind trading is a zero sum game. If there was such a wonderful robot could make 80/20 win rate, 20% a month (simple equate 240% a year) why do they need to sell it to other people, just to get more competitors in the market rather then keeping it for themselves ?? You could get a Loan for 10% interest from the bank and do trading/invest you still have a margin of 230% to win. Let alone you trade with margin using 100X+ leverage.

By definition I don’t trust anybody who writes books or blogs or whatever on how to become rich.

 

[Will_M]

Indeed.

Half these trading or crypto bros have supplemented income to hide their losses. Similar to “financial advisors” on YouTube.

 

[pantaiema]

Many people here lost a lot of money with that robo(t) crap. Even in my family-in-law. At first they were proud but after some time you didn’t hear them bragging no longer and then they didn’t want to talk about it anymore.



By definition I don’t trust anybody who writes books or blogs or whatever on how to become rich.

Me neither, if they are not from proven billionaires investors. But I still follow strategy and reading the books written by proven billionaires investors. Unfortunatey Warren Buffet has never written a book. But you could find his endorsement from his mentor who has written a book Benjamin Graham. Other proven billionaires investors such as Peter Lynch, Howard Marks have also written books.

 

[make_batik_great_again]

Me neither, if they are not from proven billionaires investors. But I still follow strategy and reading the books written by proven billionaires investors. Unfortunatey Warren Buffet has never written a book. But you could find his endorsement from his mentor who has written a book Benjamin Graham. Other proven billionaires investors such as Peter Lynch, Howard Marks have also written books.

Yes, I agree. The books of Peter Lynch and Benjamin Graham are great. And good-old Warren ... really? There is no book written by him? Maybe he thought „Benjamin Graham already told you everything“

But even though there is no book written by Warren Buffet, we can find information and knowledge by him. Here, for example, is a recent interview:


91 year old and still hungry regarding stocks

 

[make_batik_great_again]

Many people here lost a lot of money with that robo(t) crap. Even in my family-in-law. At first they were proud but after some time you didn’t hear them bragging no longer and then they didn’t want to talk about it anymore.

Yes, I also know some people like that

By the way, great that you are back, jstar. Have not seen you here for a while.

 

[pantaiema]

Yes, I also know some people like that

By the way, great that you are back, jstar. Have not seen you here for a while.

A few of friends and relatives have lost millions of IDR. They are still hoping they could get at least their initial investment back. Mostly, they are well educated. A few of them are educated in well developed countries.
Keep in mind there are reasonable a lot of binary trading or bogus investment platforms/apps in Indonesia with the same motives ponzi / pyramid scam.

People who are the victims (or sort of ?), are rather reluctant to report it to the police as the history has told, on similar case the money were confiscated by the state and you will get nothing. Keeping it afloat you might still have hope you might get your money back someday once the scheme has restarted again and enough new subscribers. Thus, enough money on teh system to pay the previous subscriber to shut their mouths.