Dual Citizen Help

[ayakachan]

Another alternative is to reclaim your Canadian citizenship, apply for citizenship certificate for your children and then renounce it. You can do all that without Indonesian authorities knowing it because the Canadian govt will not share your privacy details with them. By renouncing it, you can then live in Indonesia hassle free and legally while keeping dual citizenship for your children legally as long as you inform the authorities.

If you don't apply for Citizenship certificate for your kids before they turn 18, you can still apply for them as long as you are a Canadian citizen at the time of application. Once they are over 18, it's like sponsoring an immigrant, it is more expensive and they need to pass certain requirements such as education levels, finances etc. Citizenship certificate application before the child turns 18 is easier, cheaper, faster and automatic. You only have to show them the birth certificate, passport and ID documents.

In this way, your children will have Canadian citizenship legally until Indonesia ask them to choose one or the other at 18 or 20 Then they will be old enough to travel and study visa-free in Canada and also sponsor the parents easily as adults.

 

[pantaiema]

It’s reassuring to know if the Canada embassy protects the privacy of their citizens and would avoid reporting me to local authorities for my dual citizenship status.

In my opinion, you should only report what you are legally required to. Even if you hold two passports, there is no requirement to report it to the Indonesian Authority.

The Human Rights Act of 1998 gives every individual the right to respect for their private and family life. This includes having any personal information held in confidence. This right can only be overridden if necessary, such as terrorist concerns or things in relation to safeguarding.

In developed countries, there is a similar law applied in those countries derived from the Human Rights Act of 1998. It is typically called The Data Protection Act (DPA).

The Canadian embassy will not report you without your permission. If they do, they might end up in trouble, and there will be lawyers who would want to take your case on a no-win-no-fee basis, aiming for compensation.

I have not seen anyone goes to jail because they do not report having dual nationalities while living in Indonesia. In Orient P Riwu Kore, Sabu Raijua's Regents, he even does the unthinkable allow the case to go to the Constitutional Court. He lose the case but but did he go to jail ? was there any fine ? This is probably because they have not broken any Indonesian law.

2. Can I apply for Canadian visa on my Indonesian passport to enter Canada although I’m a citizen? Because renewing my Canadian passport and switching passports at the airport just seems too risky and problematic.

The print screen you show clearly state that you can't. But you might want to take your chance. If you get caught you might need to explain a lot of things, before they will let you go. I doubt if they do not have your record on their system.

But in your case you state that you do not want risking losing your Indonesian citizenship. If this is what you are aiming to, the safest way is probably to renounce your another nationality.

But this is just a personal opinion; you should proceed based on your own judgment and at your own risk.

 

[ayakachan]

In my opinion, you should only report what you are legally required to. Even if you hold two passports, there is no requirement to report it to the Indonesian Authority.

The Human Rights Act of 1998 gives every individual the right to respect for their private and family life. This includes having any personal information held in confidence. This right can only be overridden if necessary, such as terrorist concerns or things in relation to safeguarding.

In developed countries, there is a similar law applied in those countries derived from the Human Rights Act of 1998. It is typically called The Data Protection Act (DPA).

The Canadian embassy will not report you without your permission. If they do, they might end up in trouble, and there will be lawyers who would want to handle your case on a no-win-no-fee basis, aiming for compensation.

But this is just a personal opinion; you should proceed based on your own judgment and at your own risk.

You are right Pantaiema about the issue of human rights. However, I think the issue of citizenship is of legal matter. It is illegal for Indonesians to hold dual citizenship after 18 or 21 years of age.

It is inconvenient to travel under the radar or if you live overseas with dual citizenship. An Indonesian can't reapply for a new passport without the authorities knowing about the other nationality since you will fail to explain how you are able to live in Canada with no visa stamp in your Indonesian passport.

I think keeping the information secret is only useful if you don't want to travel overseas with your other passport. I imagine there are many Indonesians who secretly hold dual citizenships. You can easily renew your Canadian passport with little fuss in Jakarta. It is possible to keep two but can be problematic in the long run.

The only assurance we have is the fact that your secret is safe with the Canadian government.

 

[kukis]

Another alternative is to reclaim your Canadian citizenship, apply for citizenship certificate for your children and then renounce it. You can do all that without Indonesian authorities knowing it because the Canadian govt will not share your privacy details with them. By renouncing it, you can then live in Indonesia hassle free and legally while keeping dual citizenship for your children legally as long as you inform the authorities.

If you don't apply for Citizenship certificate for your kids before they turn 18, you can still apply for them as long as you are a Canadian citizen at the time of application. Once they are over 18, it's like sponsoring an immigrant, it is more expensive and they need to pass certain requirements such as education levels, finances etc. Citizenship certificate application before the child turns 18 is easier, cheaper, faster and automatic. You only have to show them the birth certificate, passport and ID documents.

In this way, your children will have Canadian citizenship legally until Indonesia ask them to choose one or the other at 18 or 20 Then they will be old enough to travel and study visa-free in Canada and also sponsor the parents easily as adults.

Thank you very much ayakachan for sharing your knowledge and expertise.
I was unaware that once my baby is born that I could apply Canadian citizenship for them, it is definitely something I will consider for their future before they turn 18, if they wish to live and study in Canada.
With this new information I won’t be renouncing my Canadian citizenship for now, at least until I decide to apply citizenship for my future children.
I will continue to lay low under the radar and postpone my plans to visit Canada for the time being.
Thank you again I appreciate your valuable insights.

 

[kukis]

In my opinion, you should only report what you are legally required to. Even if you hold two passports, there is no requirement to report it to the Indonesian Authority.

The Human Rights Act of 1998 gives every individual the right to respect for their private and family life. This includes having any personal information held in confidence. This right can only be overridden if necessary, such as terrorist concerns or things in relation to safeguarding.

In developed countries, there is a similar law applied in those countries derived from the Human Rights Act of 1998. It is typically called The Data Protection Act (DPA).

The Canadian embassy will not report you without your permission. If they do, they might end up in trouble, and there will be lawyers who would want to take your case on a no-win-no-fee basis, aiming for compensation.

I have not seen anyone goes to jail because they do not report having dual nationalities while living in Indonesia. In Orient Orient P Riwu Kore, Sabu Raijua's Regents, he even does the unthinkable allow the case to go Constitutional Court. He lose the case but but did he go to jail ? Is there any fine ? This is probably because they have not broken any Indonesian law.


The print screen you show clearly state that you can't. But you might want to take your chance. If you get caught you might need to explain a lot of things, before they will let you go.

But in your case you state that you do not want risking losing your Indonesian citizenship. If this is what you are aiming to, the safest way is probably to renounce your another nationality.

But this is just a personal opinion; you should proceed based on your own judgment and at your own risk.

Hi pantaiema, thank you for your reassurance that the Canadian embassy values privacy and won’t report me to local authorities without my consent. This makes me feel much safer.
I agree with your first point, I have no intention of reporting my dual citizenship to the authorities.
I hope I can keep my dual citizenship for as long as I can, but I will consider denouncing my Canadian citizenship in the future if necessary, because I must keep my Indonesian citizenship.

I’m still not sure if the Canadian embassy will approve of a visa when I’m a citizen, but I’m curious to ask. If they approve, I would definitely feel safer traveling with the visa instead of carrying 2 passports, the visa would be a green light in Indonesia, but Canada’s immigration would definitely interrogate me haha.

 

[kukis]

Kukis, you mentioned that you were born in Indonesia and therefore you are a naturalized Canadian citizen. I mentioned in my other post that you will not be able to claim Canadian citizenship to your future children as long as they are born in Indonesia since you are a naturalized citizen, 2nd generation from my understanding. If you were born in Canada, then it is possible. If you want your child to have Canadian citizendhip, you have to give birth in Canada since granting of automatic citizenship overseas is limited to 2nd generation.

However, you can sponsor them under family class in the future but the process is a bit longer, more expensive and you have to move with them to Canada.

They can also individually apply to immigrate to Canada as skilled professionals as long as their expertise is recognised by the government and have about US$17K in the bank as of 2023.

Hi ayakachan, yes I am a naturalized Canadian citizen, my parents and I are born in Indonesia however my dad is a naturalized Canadian citizen as well, but I believe he has renounced his citizenship when he moved back to Indonesia permanently.
After your previous post I read this article (attached screenshot) that backs up your statement.
Cmiiw but does it mean my child can apply for citizenship as a 1st gen?

 

[fastpitch17]

All I can contribute is,

In the US, if an Indonesian goes to the Indonesian Embassy or Consulates and needs a new Indonesian Passport or Temporary travel document, the Consulate/Embassy personnel will first check with the US State Department data to check residency/citizenship within the US. I imagine other Indonesian Consulates have the same policy.

I think the Indonesian laws are quite clear after an individual reaches the age where they must proclaim citizenship. Then you are allowed Indonesian citizenship and no other or declare another nations citizenship and denounce the Indonesian one.

 

[Wally]

Thank you very much ayakachan for sharing your knowledge and expertise.
I was unaware that once my baby is born that I could apply Canadian citizenship for them, it is definitely something I will consider for their future before they turn 18, if they wish to live and study in Canada.
With this new information I won’t be renouncing my Canadian citizenship for now, at least until I decide to apply citizenship for my future children.
I will continue to lay low under the radar and postpone my plans to visit Canada for the time being.
Thank you again I appreciate your valuable insights.

My children had dual Indonesian and UK citizenship. For a time after they were 21 they continued to use their Indonesian passports to enter Indonesia and their UK passports to enter the UK. No questions were ever asked. But now they have been living so long in the UK that their Indonesian passports have expired. When they return to Indonesia they just obtain a usual visa on arrival using their UK passports. But one still has a valid KTP, I believe!

 

[fastpitch17]

I'm 100% sure that like Canada, America will not share private details with another government about a private citizen. Again it has to do with strict privacy laws.

The only information they share is for fighting terrorism and criminals. Applying for a passport is not. Applying for American or Canadian citizenship is, that is why you need to get police clearance from every country you have lived for more than 6 months and attach it in your Canada PR / American Green Card application. This kind of visa will ofcourse allow an applicant to qualify to be naturalized if he or she wishes to after few years of residency.

It is fairly easy for Indonesian Embassy to find out you have dual citizenship without calling anyone. They will simply ask proof of your rstatus in the country of residence. You will either have a tourist visa, Green Card, Student visa or American passport. So one way or another, they will know your status. State Dept will not provide it for privacy reasons.

Canada allows dual citizenship, Indonesia does not. My wife let her Indonesian passport expire and then misplaced it and no other documents stating her status. Consulate checked with state department with a simple phone call and they did in fact inform them she had no ties to the US. Citizenship records are public records. If they were private various print medias wouldn't be posting list of new citizens. I doubt Canada has citizenship as private records.

I really don't care what you believe Canada does or does not do. What I know, is that anyone who has a status of Indonesian Citizen should abide by Indonesian laws and no one should be advising them on ways to skirt the system since it isn't the advisors ass that could be in trouble. What the hell is wrong with just telling someone to follow the law and stay out of possible trouble? Why argue so much to find ways to possibly break the law?

 

[Wally]

You should calm the freak down and don't make assumptions on people. I'm not advising anyone to break any laws. And I don't really care what you think about my advice here in the public forum.

If you read my posts carefully, you will know that I stated clearly that I followed Indonesian rules and registered my child with the government as a dual citizen.

Show me anywhere I advised kukis here to break the law?

I suggest you read my post again, preferably sober, for better clarity. Or even better, ignore my posts and mind your own business.

Yes, I agree with you. Also in Indonesia the interpretation and application of the law can vary

 

[ayakachan]

https://www.uscis.gov/records/request-records-through-the-freedom-of-information-act-or-privacy-act

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigratio...8-application-search-citizenship-records.html

Both America and Canada protect the privacy of the status of their citizens unless that person give CONSENT for another party to get that information.

That is why no reporters were able to know if ex-President Obama was American by birth or through naturalization by just looking at the public records. He has to consent to it under Freedom of Information Act as you can read about it above. Until then, some people just made assumptions that he wasn't born in America and therefore he was not qualified to run for President. (Naturalized citizens can't run for Presidency). He eventually consented and now we all know that he was born in Hawaii.

Canadian government have similar rules for the public to search or ask for someone's citizenship status. You need their consent just like the Americans.

So there is no magic number Indonesian consulates can call and confirm whether or not a particular Indonesian citizen is holding American citizenship as well unless consent is given.

I'm giving this information which is freely available online. I do not advise anyone to break Indonesian, American or Canadian laws. I'm merely pointing privacy rules posted online by the two governments.

 

[pantaiema]

Regarding still holding a green card, residence permit, or BRP, as a proof that someone has not acquired nationality in a well-developed country ? Well, some people have both certificate of naturalisation, both passports, while still holding residence permit cards, especially those who come from a country that does not allow dual nationality. There is no way they could obtain official information from the authorities, except if they are given permission.

How to go about it? It's not advisable to discuss it in an open forum. It all depends on how determine and certainly fortunate you are, who you meet when extending your passport.

 

[snpark]

Yes but don't always believe what people say or "show". The system catches them. Even photoshopping the date on your kitas doesn't work when the bank people use a QR scanner to check and it doesn't work. Might be good for a flash but not for thorough check.

 

[fastpitch17]

Regarding still holding a green card, residence permit, or BRP, as a proof that someone has not acquired nationality in a well-developed country ? Well, some people have both certificate of naturalisation, both passports, while still holding residence permit cards, especially those who come from a country that does not allow dual nationality. There is no way they could obtain official information from the authorities, except if they are given permission.

How to go about it? It's not advisable to discuss it in an open forum. It all depends on how determine and certainly fortunate you are, who you meet when extending your passport.

If you can't discuss it on an open forum pretty much means that it could be advise that would be illegal. That would be breaking Forum rules.

 

[pantaiema]

If you can't discuss it on an open forum pretty much means that it could be advise that would be illegal. That would be breaking Forum rules.

Not really. There are many things in a gray area. There is also something called a loophole. A gray area and a loophole are not necessarily illegal.

There is something called "gedogen" (Dutch word) a de facto tolerated. For example, paying services outside the official fees to pass the driving test is actually illegal, but it is still discussed in this thread.
https://www.expatindo.org/community...ld-become-a-circus-performer.7152/#post-94261

People do not want to discuss certain topics in an open forum for various reasons.

And who decides whether something is legal or illegal? In the case of a gray area or loophole, even a court ruling could be different for the same case judged by different people.

 

[ayakachan]

Yes but don't always believe what people say or "show". The system catches them. Even photoshopping the date on your kitas doesn't work when the bank people use a QR scanner to check and it doesn't work. Might be good for a flash but not for thorough check.

They stamp QR scanner in your passport now instead of the usual kitas stamp with authority signature and visa details.

 

[snpark]

They stamp QR scanner in your passport now instead of the usual kitas stamp with authority signature and visa details.

I'm talking about the PDF email you get from immigration
When the bank or whoever ask for a copy of your kitas most people send the PDF that immigration have emailed
One has a residence address. One doesn't. Both have an expiry date which would be easy to Photoshop for a year later. But not when they bank girl tries to scan it and it shows up as expired. For example.

 

[ayakachan]

I'm talking about the PDF email you get from immigration
When the bank or whoever ask for a copy of your kitas most people send the PDF that immigration have emailed
One has a residence address. One doesn't. Both have an expiry date which would be easy to Photoshop for a year later. But not when they bank girl tries to scan it and it shows up as expired. For example.

I know what you are talking about. I was just saying they now stamp QR scanner in your passport as well instead of a stamp with visa details they used to do before.

You are right though, it's not very smart to photoshop Kitas document to change date of visa expiry.

 

[fastpitch17]

And who decides whether something is legal or illegal? In the case of a gray area or loophole, even a court ruling could be different for the same case judged by different people.

In this forum, the Moderators decide.