DON'T PANIC.... well, maybe a little bit.


Struggling to wrap my head around the logic here...
Huuum, I used a translation service so I can't be sure if I understood the article completely but yes, it is as clear as mud.
As daily testing decreases, the daily positive rate also decreases.

Based on the page https://covid19.go.id/peta-sebaran,

positive graph for covid-19 on October 28, the addition of positive cases was at 4,029, then decreased by 3,565 on October 29, 2,897 on October 30, 3,143 on October 31, and continues to decline until only 2,696 cases were found on November 1.

I checked the graph and we do see a DECLINING TREND from Oct. 28th to Nov. 1st of positive cases as well as tests taken.

Toward the bottom he then writes about the trend from Oct. 21 to 27th during which he says the number of tests made was decreasing but the positive case level being nearly constant. Suggesting that the virus was the spreading during this time.
[QUOTE]During this period, the number of positive cases found was around 4,000 a day. Even though the tests were down several times, the positive number findings were still high.[/QUOTE]

However, what I see from Oct. 22 to 27th ( Perkembangan Kasus Terkonfirmasi Positif Covid-19 Per-Hari ) is a general down trend. Saying the numbers are staying around 4,000 is a stretch.

Here is everything in a spreadsheet.
Data.png


What is more interesting is the trend of deaths from Cov-19 from Oct. 21 forward. What we see is a FALLING TREND which HE DOES NOT MENTION in the article !!!! That's the Game.
 
Sorry, I was being tongue in cheek. The health ministry spokesman was claiming that the reason there were fewer total tests was because the virus was going away. This makes no logical sense.

They've since backtracked and admitted that testing was down because the labs were closed over the long weekend. English news source here - https://coconuts.co/jakarta/news/da...esias-drop-in-covid-19-cases-health-ministry/
 
Sorry, I was being tongue in cheek. The health ministry spokesman was claiming that the reason there were fewer total tests was because the virus was going away. This makes no logical sense.

They've since backtracked and admitted that testing was down because the labs were closed over the long weekend. English news source here - https://coconuts.co/jakarta/news/da...esias-drop-in-covid-19-cases-health-ministry/
I sensed that the CNN writer was challenging the Ministry but the way it was written was a bit shaky. Perhaps it comes across better in Indonesia but reading the translation had me going for a bit.

I still chuckle that nothing was said about the downward trend in deaths. Perhaps death was also on holiday. :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
 
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Well this election is turning out to be very close. Tipis sekali.

I wonder if the fact that the Democrats stopped doing rallies and canvassing to try and be Covid-responsible is going to come back and bite them, since there seems to have been a late Trump surge (again) in places where he has been active doing rallies recently.
 
Huuum, I used a translation service so I can't be sure if I understood the article completely but yes, it is as clear as mud.


I checked the graph and we do see a DECLINING TREND from Oct. 28th to Nov. 1st of positive cases as well as tests taken.

Toward the bottom he then writes about the trend from Oct. 21 to 27th during which he says the number of tests made was decreasing but the positive case level being nearly constant. Suggesting that the virus was the spreading during this time.

During this period, the number of positive cases found was around 4,000 a day. Even though the tests were down several times, the positive number findings were still high.

However, what I see from Oct. 22 to 27th ( Perkembangan Kasus Terkonfirmasi Positif Covid-19 Per-Hari ) is a general down trend. Saying the numbers are staying around 4,000 is a stretch.

Here is everything in a spreadsheet.
View attachment 1621

What is more interesting is the trend of deaths from Cov-19 from Oct. 21 forward. What we see is a FALLING TREND which HE DOES NOT MENTION in the article !!!! That's the Game.

It’s worth pointing out on the article that the 29th of October was a national holiday, the birthday of the Prophet Muhammad. The 28th and the 30th of October were also declared as common/mass vacation days (cuti bersama). There were fewer tests during a 3-day holiday followed by a weekend, naturally.
 
I'd like to share with you what I have learned about the RT-PCR test that is being used all over the world to find "cases". Note, case does not mean you have temperature, that you are feeling bad or coughing. When we see the figure "cases" it could be people that were feeling bad or feeling just fine when the test was done. Hence, we have apples and oranges in that number, sick and not sick.

The PCR technique (it is NOT a test to identify illness) was developed by Dr. Kary Mullis who in 1993 won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry. The technique allows rapid amplification (making exact copies) of a small stretch of DNA (also RNA). This method was never meant to be used for diagnosing illnesses which I'll explain shortly why.

So, PCR can be thought of as a special coping machine of DNA/RNA. How does it work ?

1) Take a sample from the nose/throat.

2) Put the samples into 3 PCR processes. Each one SET TO COPY ONLY 1 of 3 segments of the complete SARS-CoV2 virus RNA strand. They don't try to ID the whole RNA strand of the virus.
RNA that is not from CoV2 virus will not (theoretically) react (no coping) in this process. So if there were ZERO samples of SARS-CoV2 virus RNA the processes would copy nothing, again theoretically. Result, NEGATIVE.

3) The copying process is controlled by adjustment of the number of cycles of copying that will be done for the test. The parameter is called Ct. The simplest explanation would be along these lines. If we start with X CoV viruses then for Ct = 2 or two cycles of coping we get following happening,

1st cycle = 2 * X copies made
2nd cycle = 2 * (2 * X copies) = 4 *X copies made

Note this is simply 2 raised to the power of Ct or 2^Ct.
So for Ct = 35 we have 2^35*X copies or 34,359,738,368 * X copies of chosen CoV2 RNA segment.

4) During the process each copy made has attached to it a chemical which fluoresces when exposed to some particular light source in the lab equipment. This is what decides if the test goes POSITIVE or NEGATIVE, presence of emitted light. No light, NEGATIVE. There is light, POSITIVE. So, more virus copies generate more light. Few or no virus RNA copies and we get faint light or no light.

5) The whole problem with this so called "test" is that we do not know the INITIAL amount (X) of the virus at the start of the test. There could be 1, 112, 1,532, 2,348,371 or ZERO. We don't know !!! Keep that in mind always because it is a key to this so called "test".

This is crucial to understanding the potential for misuse of this test. There are other things that are a problem but this one issue is the number 1 starting problem.

6) Some other issues with the test,
a) We do not know if the SARS-CoV2 virus RNA is dead (killed by immune system) or alive (able to infect others). Dead will not infect anyone, live ones potentially COULD.
b) We do not know if the 3 target segments of the SARS-CoV2 virus RNA are not also present in some other viruses leading to copying of something that is not CoV2
c) We do not know if all 3 SARS-CoV2 virus RNA target segments are actually there for each of the X viruses RNA in the sample
d) We do not know if sample was contaminated during taking and transport
e) We do not know if the samples were in the right temperature during transport (crucial issue).
f) We do not know if the caring out of the test procedure was done correctly in the lab

There is more but the bottom line is that with MASS TESTING things will go wrong but we have no clue where and when.

This is getting a bit long so I will just zero in on the central issue of this test, Ct value used. Different lab all over the world used different values. NOTHING in this test is truly standardized as you are not in the lab to check what they are actually doing. If papaya can bring a POSITIVE result ..... Tanzania , well you get what I mean.

Lets assume that the test detects light and goes POSITIVE if virus copies made equals 3,000,000,000. Also assume that a person who gets sick would have on average X=3000 CoV viruses and when fully recovered or asymptomatic 500 or less in the sample when tested.

Here is a spreadsheet showing what happens at different Ct levels and different initial X values of CoV2 viruses in the sample tested.
Ct values.png

What do we see ?
1) A sick person can be identified by using a cycle Ct value of 20 or higher. Lower Ct the light level would be too low.
2) A person who has recovered from the illness or is asymptomatic would need the test to be set at 23 or higher for the test to say Positive as the initial number of virus is much smaller. So more copies are needed to reach the minimum of 3,000,000,000.
3) A person with very little of the virus would need to have the cycle level set even higher to get to the detection level needed to set the test to Positive.
From the above you should get the sense of how the test reacts depending on the Ct value and the initial X value of CoV2 virus. Remember: We never know what that INITIAL X value is. No easy way to do it.

So what happens in the labs ? They just set the Ct value and run it all on automatic. The commonly used value of Ct is/was 36 to 40. Many experts who were not frequent guests on CNN/BBC warned that the value is set too high and would result in people with next to nothing for the Initial value of X in their sample to be identified as POSITIVE CASE. No one listened.

So what you were/are observing are people with NO SYMPTOMS testing POSITIVE which could mean that,
1) the person encountered the virus in tiny amount
2) the immune system defeated it without the person getting sick
3) the healthy person carries the residual RNA of the virus in tiny amounts and setting off the test POSITIVE because they are using such high Ct.

This is the central problem with this test. Too high Ct combined with continuous testing will result in finding more POSITIVE cases as long as you test and the person was in contact with the virus in low viral load environment or a high one. The test can not answer this question. They have no clu how much virus is in the sample to decide if the person is potential spreader or not. Add to this points a), b) and c) and you know how good this test is !!!

Virology experts I encountered in the Internet (not on CNN/BBC) say the test Ct value should be rolled back to around 26 or a bit lower so as not to pickup people who are not a danger.

So next time you hear "The Positive Cases for today was ...." JUST SMILE !!!!

That's the basics of the controversy around the test RT-PCR. Add to that that there is no Standard test and Standard procedure and you have a Circus where every lab potentially is cooking the soup differently.
 
The best thing to do here would be to send all this information along with whatever data is available about cases, deaths etc to Donald Trump for analysis.

I feel sure he would find that it just goes to prove what a wonderful job he has been doing and there's really not much to worry about because it will just fade away and America will be great again. And if America is great again the of course the whole world will be better off. Meanwhile, despite what commentators might say, he has already won the election and he will be back as President for another four years so even if there is a second, third or fourth wave of Covid 19 there will be nothing to worry about and he will fix everything. So, don't panic....not even a little bit.
 
Virology experts I encountered in the Internet (not on CNN/BBC) say the test Ct value should be rolled back to around 26 or a bit lower so as not to pickup people who are not a danger.

People who may have a low viral load are still a danger. It is well known and accepted now that "dead virus" which is non-contagious can remain in the system for a long period so typically people are not retested to determine if they are no longer contagious. Multiple studies have shown that 100% of people are no longer contagious two weeks after first symptoms (I think the exact days was 10 or 11).

Your long post pretending to be informed, finished with the sentiment that it's all a ruse, likely qualifies you for a position in the Trump administration, but is not appreciated by myself or, I suspect, by many others who are capable of critical thinking.
 
People who may have a low viral load are still a danger
How are you going to identify who has low viral load. PCR can not do it. What is the "low viral load" value ? Give me a study where this is given because what I have seen over the last 9 or so months is , "researchers suspect it is low" or " experts estimate".

SARS-CoV2 virus has clearly shown ,if one follows the discussion closely, that science has joined politics. Lots of nebulous verbiage to hypnotize the public. Science is data and not what someone believes.

It is well known and accepted now that "dead virus" which is non-contagious can remain in the system for a long period so typically people are not retested to determine if they are no longer contagious.
I never said they were. Besides, that changes nothing as they do not know if the person coming in has dead or alive viruses.

People are being invited to be tested whether they have symptoms or not. That is the problem, besides the Ct value being used. The person coming might have,
1) never met the virus
2) met the virus and nothing happened
3) met the virus and is about to be ill or already shows symptoms
4) has the virus and is getting over the illness

Dr. Mina can better explain the issues.
Dr. Mina on Rapid Testing

Your long post pretending to be informed, finished with the sentiment that it's all a ruse, likely qualifies you for a position in the Trump administration, but is not appreciated by myself or, I suspect, by many others who are capable of critical thinking.
Amazing analysis on your part. So according to you I am "pretending" so as to further Trump's agenda ? Give me a break.

The way I finished was with an opinion that I have based on what I know. You seem to think that I am not entitled to one unless it is in tune with yours and some others that you think you know. Now that is an interesting approach to a discussion.

I presented the basics of the testing problem so that people had a better understanding of what it is. If you see a problem with it improve then bring fact to the table and not denigrate someone based on your imagination. With facts there is some hope that someone can learn something. Show information/data and not just offer what you believe.

The inventor of PCR
Article 1
New York Times
South Korea

Seeing that you mix me up with Trump leads me to believe that you like to make hasty assumptions with out any basis in fact. Obviously something triggered you to react like that. I'll guess, it is hate of Trump. From this I assume that according to you if someone says something that favors Trump's position they must be in Trump's camp. Amazing stuff.
 
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How are you going to identify who has low viral load. PCR can not do it. What is the "low viral load" value ? Give me a study where this is given because what I have seen over the last 9 or so months is , "researchers suspect it is low" or " experts estimate".

SARS-CoV2 virus has clearly shown ,if one follows the discussion closely, that science has joined politics. Lots of nebulous verbiage to hypnotize the public. Science is data and not what someone believes.


I never said they were. Besides, that changes nothing as they do not know if the person coming in has dead or alive viruses.

People are being invited to be tested whether they have symptoms or not. That is the problem, besides the Ct value being used. The person coming might have,
1) never met the virus
2) met the virus and nothing happened
3) met the virus and is about to be ill or already shows symptoms
4) has the virus and is getting over the illness
The thing tou seem to be missing here is that asymptomatic carriers of Covid can and do infect others with the disease. So, in your listed cases,
1) Congrats, go home!
2) You have been infected. We will isolate you for the safety of your friends and family. We appreciate that you are willing to sacrifice your personal freedom for some few days in order to save lives.
3) Please refer to 2.
4) Please refer to 2.

This is not complicated...

Also, just going based on your explanation of the testing methods... It doesn't seem that it would be terribly hard to calibrate the test to estimate viral load... We are talking about exponential increase, so the more times you double, the more finely you can determine the starting number. I don't actually know anything about the RT-PCR though... so I asked Google. Here is what the Lancet has to say, "technology based on RT-PCR allows for calculation of viral load". They published a paper where they used it to find links between viral load and severity of symptoms, the methodology is detailed in the link provided, if you care to read it: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30354-4/fulltext

Coming back to your scenarios above, viral load isn't really relevant to a decision as to whether or not to isolate someone, or a decision of whether or not to count them as infected. The first time someone tests positive, you isolate them, once. You count them as having been infected, once. It's not rocket science.

Here is your peer reviewed and published research paper detailing transmission of the disease by the asymptomatic: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/368/6490/489
 
Here is your peer reviewed and published research paper detailing transmission of the disease by the asymptomatic: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/368/6490/489
What you gave here is work done with MATHEMATICAL MODELS which if you did any kind of modeling would make you alert to the fact that it is not the same as going out and actually testing. What they are doing is INFERRING. That in science is very close to guessing because if you infer something to actually prove it you need to get HARD DATA.

Here we have an example how you get hard data,
The unexpectedly low secondary infection risk among persons living in the same household has important implications for measures installed to contain the SARS-CoV-2 virus pandemic.
Infection fatality rate of SARS-CoV-2 infection in a German community with a super-spreading event
Prof Hendrik Streeck study
Here they went in and did real science not sitting behind a computer and fiddling with parameter (garbage in garbage out) like this great expert in the UK who got caught breaking quarantine to meet his mistress who was married. Yes, Life can be a comedy at times but not everyone gets to laugh.
Epidemiologist Behind Doomsday Model
Behind the Virus Report That Jarred the U.S. and the U.K. to Action
Yes, his MATHEMATICAL MODEL in 2009 was completely wrong yet he continued working on as an expert after costing farmers in the UK millions !!!!
 
What you gave here is work done with MATHEMATICAL MODELS which if you did any kind of modeling would make you alert to the fact that it is not the same as going out and actually testing. What they are doing is INFERRING. That in science is very close to guessing because if you infer something to actually prove it you need to get HARD DATA.
If you are volunteering to be put in a room with an asymptomatic Covid patient so we can do a controlled test to determine infection rates... Do you have a few hundred friends who think like you and would be willing to relocate to a country where medical ethics do not exist?

The study I linked wasn't the only study available on the topic. Just use Google, then check to see if the source looks reliable. I'm not doing your research for you.

When a person puts out so much bad information so quickly, I start to wonder if they are sincerely misinformed or just a troll.
 
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People are being invited to be tested whether they have symptoms or not. That is the problem, besides the Ct value being used. The person coming might have,
1) never met the virus
2) met the virus and nothing happened
3) met the virus and is about to be ill or already shows symptoms
4) has the virus and is getting over the illness

That is NOT the problem or even A problem. It is useful for the individual and for society to test all 4 of those kinds of people, and a positive result with a low Ct value (theoretically correlated to low viral load and asymptomatic) is still important and that person needs to know and needs to isolate.

Seeing that you mix me up with Trump leads me to believe that you like to make hasty assumptions with out any basis in fact.

Merely a comparison to the most prolific and blusterous of the anti-testing, anti-science persuasion. "If we would just stop testing the numbers would go down!"

SARS-CoV2 virus has clearly shown ,if one follows the discussion closely, that science has joined politics. Lots of nebulous verbiage to hypnotize the public. Science is data and not what someone believes.

Oh the irony. The vast majority of scientists and politicians around the world have a very similar strategy which includes widescale testing. These come from a wide variety of political persuasions, and for some reason they have reached a general consensus, how could that be? Perhaps because they are being guided by the science. There is only one political lane that disagrees; right wing populists.

The way I finished was with an opinion that I have based on what I know. You seem to think that I am not entitled to one unless it is in tune with yours

You absolutely are. Just as I am entitled to express my opinion about your opinion.
 
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Still pretending to be an epidemiologist? All the cool kids have moved on to pretending to being experts in electoral law.
 
As it looks from this, covid will be history soon.

A 90% efficacy is very VERY good, so cautiously optimistic. Of course data has not been released. An additional problem is the Pfizer mRNA based vaccine is one of those that require -70°C refrigeration, and that would make it hard to distribute, especially in countries like Indonesia. On the other hand, this could mean that some of the other vaccines may also be successful. The Sinovac one that Indonesia is betting the most on does not need specialized refrigeration.

Here is their press release.

 
I would avoid the Sinovac vaccine. Chinese vaccines do not have a good history, including side effects caused by a lack of purity and bribery scandals.

 
I would avoid the Sinovac vaccine. Chinese vaccines do not have a good history, including side effects caused by a lack of purity and bribery scandals.


Unfortunately most in Indonesia will probably not have a choice on which vaccine to use.

Speaking of that, some not so good news for Sinovac:

 

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