Businesses Not Being Open About Cost in Goods and Services Forum

[waarmstrong]

The proposal that a no feed-back category upon which commercial vendors can post their products and services advertisements strikes me as an idea worth looking into -- sort of a long form version of ads that appear at the top of some forums or perhaps offer advertisers their own corner of the Expat Indo website.

That being said, what I hear you saying is that the "topic" of an advertiser's posts is to be very narrowly construed to exclude criticism of the advertiser, including calling attention to disingenuous and Shawn Spicer-ish responses to requests for information, in the case at hand for example, on pricing.

The example of Nigerian scam artists was used earlier as a point of comparison. I gather that criticism in that case is also not acceptable under "the guidelines we have set up for the classified forum [where] very simple: Absolutely no off topic posting [is] allowed..." The point being made was that blatantly, obviously dishonest ad copy slips in under the "absolutely no" rule because it is so obvious that even a senile senior with a compulsion to write checks to strangers would see the ad as a scam, thus pointing it out is unnecessary.

SO both clearly honest and clearly dishonest commercial postings are protected by the no criticism rule where criticism is by definition off topic, especially of the one-liner variety. For those, such as Basfana Ridan, in the in between area of marginal or suspected dishonesty, the absolute rule, according to this discussion, shields the advertiser as well.

I can live without out further off topic posts regarding my feelings about obviously disingenuous posting in the Goods and Services channel. Keeping criticism on topic in the manner employed by Van H (where an example was used to expose predatory pricing) seems to be acceptable. A bit more time consuming, but I can work with that.

I also retract and apologize for any suggestion impugning the motives of Defluff and any other members of the mod team. Heat of the moment thing to which I succumbed.

 

[Puspawarna]

Alright, let me take a stab at thoroughly explaining the thinking of the moderation team. There are two separate issues here, both worthy of discussion:

• Should advertisers be required by our guidelines to list prices (or at least price ranges), the same way we require employers who are posting jobs to list a salary range?
• Should rude remarks be permitted when advertisers start threads in the Goods and Services subforum?

In this post, I am only addressing issue #2 – the requirement that posts in Goods & Services (G&S) subforum be on-topic and not rude.

Briefly, it’s our position that:

(*) Encouraging participation by varied advertisers offering a range of options is good for the forum. It grows our membership and exposes members to products and services they might not otherwise encounter.

(*) Newcomers who browse through the G&S subforum (especially those who might be considering placing an ad) will be unlikely to join and post if they see a clear pattern of posters being nasty to newbies.

(*) Nothing about the requirement to remain on-topic and polite in the G&S subforum prevents posters from asking hard questions that will, when this is the case, reveal that an advertiser is evasive, unqualified, or price-gouging.

Taken together, these three assertions lead clearly to our current policy of prohibiting snark and off-topic posting in G&S. That’s it in a nutshell.

But for those who may not yet be convinced, I’ll expand on the above three assertions. Warning: This is going to be wordy. (Hey! I like words. Words are my friends.)

Encouraging participation by varied advertisers offering a range of options is good for the forum. It grows our membership and exposes members to products and services they might not otherwise encounter.

If we remain an insular community consisting only of those posters who happened to be active at the old place in July 2016 and were disgusted by the indifference of the admins there, we won’t survive over the long run. By definition, a message board devoted to expats means that we’re bound to lose members who leave Indonesia. Besides, attracting new members keeps the forum interesting and fresh.

The mod team is doing what it can to encourage growth (especially dafluff and El_Goretto – I really must give a shout-out to those guys, you have no idea how much time they are putting in on developing a companion website, evaluating improved software options for us, and so on – you’ll see more evidence of this as time goes by). One small piece of this strategy is keeping the forum varied and welcoming, and it is a great way for posters to support our community.

There are many ways for new posters to find us. Maybe someone will stumble upon Expat Indo when they are doing a Google search on locating parmesan in Indonesia. Maybe an advertiser who is also an interesting person will realize, after first seeing Expat Indo as just an advertising venue, that we’re a fun group, and will start posting outside G&S. You never know – these things can happen, and every little bit helps.

Moreover, having information about interesting G&S is a plus for our existing members. As for me, between the old place and here, I have obtained a variety of products I wouldn’t have known about otherwise, including heat-tolerant vegetable seeds, wine, durian cream puffs, cashews, and yes, even parmesan cheese. I wouldn’t have known about any of those products had I not seen their advertisements at the old place or here.

Newcomers who browse through the G&S subforum (especially those who might be considering placing an ad) will be unlikely to join and post if they see a clear pattern of posters being nasty to newbies.

A common complaint about message boards is that they are full of cliques made up of old-timers, and newcomers are savaged. When we treat advertisers badly, we play right into that stereotype, and demotivate people who might otherwise have become valued posters.

Keep in mind that what is obvious to us old-timers (namely, that an advertiser is full of s**t) is not necessarily as clear to someone who doesn’t know forum dynamics, doesn’t speak English as a first language, or who is unfamiliar with Indonesia.

Sure, somebody like waarmie can spot a fraud a mile off. But a casual browser who lacks his perspective? All they are going to see is the nastiness – not the legitimate reasons behind it. The only thing that mean-spirited posting accomplishes is spleen-venting and chasing away potential posters. These are not the reasons that the G&S subforum exists.

This leads directly to the third point, which is:

Nothing about the requirement to remain on-topic and polite in the G&S subforum prevents posters from asking hard questions that will, when this is the case, reveal that an advertiser is evasive, unqualified, or price-gouging.

A common justification for challenging suspect advertisers is to protect the unwary. By all means, posters should feel free to proceed with such a noble endeavor. But realize, you will be more effective if you are polite and ask genuine questions.

When I read a sarcastic post in an unfamiliar environment, I might just think that the person voicing the sarcasm is a jerk. If, on the other hand, I read polite but penetrating questions, and the advertiser doesn’t have a good response – then I will recognize where the problem lies.

To me, it’s actually much more entertaining to remain calm and reasonable while effectively deconstructing the questionable claims of a shady advertiser. It calls for greater finesse, and is commensurately rewarding. I urge those of you who have doubts about advertisers to give it a try.

 

[atlantis]

The example of Nigerian scam artists was used earlier as a point of comparison. I gather that criticism in that case is also not acceptable under "the guidelines we have set up for the classified forum [where] very simple: Absolutely no off topic posting [is] allowed..." The point being made was that blatantly, obviously dishonest ad copy slips in under the "absolutely no" rule because it is so obvious that even a senile senior with a compulsion to write checks to strangers would see the ad as a scam, thus pointing it out is unnecessary.

A quick question for you Waarmstrong if you don't mind.
You have been a member of our community for 9 years if I recall well. I think you became a member of LIIF a month or two after I started to moderate it. In this next to 9 years can you say honestly that you have seen a nigerian scam ad remaining on the board more than a few minutes or hours? If you can't answer, I am going to do it for you. The answer is "NO" and the reason why is because the Moderation Team, helped by user who have REPORTED such ads/posts has always been screening new users and deleting said ads.

We also have been, I am sure that you remember it in at least a few instances, tracking any shill attempt from companies and anything we would have investigated and found dubious.

Believe me, it has been countless hours of work for me to screen new users years after years to evaluate if they were a potential risk for the community and there is no indication that the present Moderation Team intends to be more indulgent toward these scammers and clowns. The way to go is simple: you have a doubt, you REPORT it to us, and we do the police job.

In the case of Basfana Ridan, criticizing his pricing without having experienced his services and assessing his knowledge is properly ridiculous if you want my opinion. I have seen "agent" advertising ITAS/ITAP for a very "low" price but having next to no knowledge of immigration law and I have seen agent advertising pricey services but with staff showing that they were well trained and sufficiently knowledgeable in immigration matters. If you want my opinion, I prefer the second breed, even if it has to cost me twice the amount of that guy who trades KITASes, automotive spare parts and second hand home appliances in the back room of a pet food shop.

To me what is really sad in the Basfana Ridan thread is that a few of you guys have jumped on him without for even one minute trying to find out if his services and knowledge were worth what he is allegedly asking for. Keep in mind that if this guy was really knowledgeable, you have a responsibility for deterring him to be a valuable resource for the community.

I don't say that this guy was good. I say that none of you guys have checked before firing bullets, focusing on the price without even trying to properly compare his services and share it with the board. Where is the service for the community?

 

[waarmstrong]

In reference to #22 & 23 above, all good points, well taken.

I was referring to the Nigerian scam example used to explain the guidelines, and agree, as well, that such scams are not in evidence here or in the other Forum. I gather it was merely a vehicle used to illustrate extremes in the discussion; my response was intended to be viewed in the same light.

I will henceforth, view new advertisers as I have been persuaded to view new members and refrain from uncomplimentary short-form speculations. Feel free delete all such remarks from the Basfana Ridan thread. (No need for hyperbole, anyway. You may not agree, but I feel the response to Van H speaks for itself.)

 

[fastpitch17]

Alright, let me take a stab at thoroughly explaining the thinking of the moderation team. There are two separate issues here, both worthy of discussion:

• Should advertisers be required by our guidelines to list prices (or at least price ranges), the same way we require employers who are posting jobs to list a salary range?
• Should rude remarks be permitted when advertisers start threads in the Goods and Services subforum?

In this post, I am only addressing issue #2 - the requirement that posts in Goods & Services (G&S) subforum be on-topic and not rude.

First off, I did not enter the thread about the Agent and it's fees because frankly, I would never use an agent for something that just isn't that hard to do on your own. Retirement visas are a different story and the law requires you to have a specific sponsor. No one asked the question if that particular agency is an approved agency.

As for addressing Issue #2. It makes no difference as to what you say about 2 until you address number 1. All the problems associated with number 2 stem from number 1. The forum Mods need to take a close look at just what is required for pricing and what is not. In my oppinion, anything can be be classified as a product must have a price. No matter if it,s a single unit, by the kilo, or by the litre. If a service is something that is charged by a period of time, (hour, day, week, month) it should include a price for that amount of time. Services that have varied prices depending on needs and requirements should include a price range for various services or at least detailed examples. Until issue 1 is dealt with and people understand it, you will never get issue 2 dealt with.

The admin of this forum decided to make it an Expat forum and included it in it's name. While it is open to all as it should be, there should still be expectations of how expats would best accept things. While in Indonesia we know that many prices are hidden from Expats and prices for them are normally higher then locals, since it is an Expat site, it should be only acceptable to have what Expats would expect when dealing with other Expats. Advertizers should adapt to Expact expectations on an Expat site. Not the other way around. I think we get that enough just dealing with the street businesses. For me, if there is no price and someone tells me I have to ask, there will be no contact from me so as far as I'm concerned, they din't even need to make a listing.

 

[Anglian]

I agree, no price, don't ask, it's like many purchases in indonesia if you are happy with the price you buy, but you have to remember there is always someone selling cheaper,

 

[Puspawarna]

All the problems associated with number 2 stem from number 1.

That's not actually true. Price is "low hanging fruit," and so it is usually the first line of attack. But it's not the only one. We had a G&S thread, now deleted, in which the OP offered communications services and was thoroughly criticized on a lot of issues that had nothing to do with price: whether he could offer his services legally; whether or not he was any good; and whether his claims of experience were truthful.

To be honest, I don't understand what the obsession is with offering cut and dried prices for services. Speaking as a poster rather than as a moderator, I personally think it is much wiser to offer a pricing scheme if at all possible. However, we've heard from several people - including me, as someone who has been involved in freelance editing - about the difficulty of giving an up-front price quote for a specialized service that can't be reduced to "Rp 50k per kilo." Believe me, if I were to advertise my services as an editor, there is no way in hell I could tell you that "a fifty page paper will cost you $250." I would absolutely have to know more about the individual situation before I could do an accurate cost estimate.

What doesn't make sense to me is why advertisers here, who you can actually interact with and ask question of in order to get a better feel for their integrity, are being held to a higher standard than, say, advertisers in the Jakarta Post. Sometimes advertisers in that newspaper will give a price - but not always. Should everyone be up in arms against JakPo because they have the audacity not to require their advertisers to give prices?

 

[atlantis]

While it is open to all as it should be, there should still be expectations of how expats would best accept things. While in Indonesia we know that many prices are hidden from Expats and prices for them are normally higher then locals, since it is an Expat site, it should be only acceptable to have what Expats would expect when dealing with other Expats. Advertizers should adapt to Expact expectations on an Expat site. Not the other way around. I think we get that enough just dealing with the street businesses. For me, if there is no price and someone tells me I have to ask, there will be no contact from me so as far as I'm concerned, they din't even need to make a listing.

One of the problem I see in your statement is that you assume that all Expats think and feel the same. It ain't true. I for once don't give a rat ass if a product come with a price tag or not, or if a price range is given to me prior to exposing my needs when it comes to a service. Yet, I am an expat, and I can tell you that many expats around me feel it the same way. Is that because I grew in countries where it was the norm? Is that because we live in the bush? I don't know.

As much as I hear you and understand that having a price tag given may comfort some expats when it concerns products, I believe that for many services it makes little sense.

Your personal example with your recent ordeal chasing a KTP OA and KK is a good example to illustrate the above concerning services.

Considering that in some region like yours, PNS are astonishingly incompetent, local regulations are an headache to source and vastly ignored, and that said agent would have to fly several time from JKT to Bandar Lampung or wherever else before succeeding, creating huge discrepancies in his costs compared to the same document organized in JKT for example, how ridiculously large should be the price range advertised?

I personally prefer an agent who hear first my needs, who ask me questions, who controls that all the documents I have which are requested in the procedure are legit, and who submit me a tailored quotation giving me indications and insurances in every words he says to me that he knows what he is talking about.

As you probably know, fees for KTP OA and KK are set regionally and may vary from being gratis in some kabupaten/kota to up to Rp 1.000.000 for EACH document (KTP OA and KK), meaning that the price range given by said agent should also reflect this on top of the fact that some kabupaten/kota are more difficult to deal with as your own personal recent example highlights.

If an agent would properly do it we would end up with him advertising a range from say Rp 500.000 to Rp 10.000.000 for a KTP OA and KK. Would it make sense? I don't think so and we would have again some users taking a snipe at said advertiser for it.

For those who would tell me '"yeah but for KITAS/KITAP...etc". Sorry, there is little difference with the KTP/KK example above. To me, I would be extremely cautious of an agent who would advertise a dry "ITAS sponsor suami/istri: Rp 5.000.000" without asking me where I reside, what citizenship I am, who explains me what document I will have to submit and control if they are legit... etc. I don't want to find out half way to my ITAS/ITAP procedure that yes, I married abroad and I need a CaPil recognition of my marriage but that since we married 17 years ago and never reported it the agent will have to pay a fine to get it sorted out and that on top of it the KTP of my wife still shows a residency in Tangkunei while we intend to apply for an ITAP in Mataram.

In short I think that for services asking for a price or even a price range is often ridiculous. As in most business deal, I think that expats willing to secure the service of someone should invite said person for a meeting, having him/her seating down, fully explaining ones needs and expectations and very last, asking for price. Then negotiating it.

I reckon that for some type of services, giving a price range is perhaps possible. For many, and agent are imho included in it like other types of services, it is not and therefore I believe that our guidelines shouldn't impose it.

 

[fastpitch17]

Funny, I think I stated on an earlier post that it would be next to impossible for some srvices to list their prices when they are so varried in what they have to offer and what is needed. That certainly doesn't mean they can't give an example and simply state that it is an example and based on individual needs, the price would be analized.

That doesn't mean that if you are offering a specific product you don't need a price. Services are different then products. Well, there are some specific services that don't have variations in their offerings that could be dealt like products. Let's go back to the cheese. It was a product. Sold by weight. Why is it the seller couldn't, wouldn't give a price by 100g? Why would the Mods not insist on it. The refusal to give a price openly led to a lot of negativity for the seller who may or may not of had a good price. The rules for selling products and specific services need to be changed to prices must be included. Specialized variable services should give some kind of price information. No, this isn't the JakPost ot JakGlobe, or any other mass media source. That is why this forum should be better than them.

 

[atlantis]

That doesn't mean that if you are offering a specific product you don't need a price.

Be aware that for some product it also may difficult, though unlike services it won't be in the majority of cases.
I remember a (bitter) discussion years ago in another forum about a guy selling logam mulia without giving a price. Heck gold price changes everyday, why is that surprising that no price is given in a thread which may live for months or be discovered.by a user years after being posted. If I were shopping for gold I would certainly don't give a sh1t to know that on October 15th, 2013 a 5g logam mulia was at Rp 2.479.000 but I would certainly appreciate to have the phone number of the guys company so that i can check today's rate

As a matter of fact my company sells veggies and fruits among other goods. Two month ago the local rica was at Rp 15.000, today it is at Rp 125.000. Same product, same packaging, same beautiful smile of your favorite seller.

Cheese? Being an imported product, very probably in small quantities in the case you highlight, I wouldn't be surprised nor shocked that its price list is modified at each reception of stock. Again, he wasn't selling a block of Kraft cheddar. Many imported cheeese are fresh product with short shelf life forbidding a long term stock so definitely affected by currency variation and cargo price variation. Therefore I am not surprised that he may be reticent to publish today a price in a thread which may be read in 3 or 5 months. I deal with fresh products and fine food a lot and believe me it is not rare that the price I get quoted for some item may be different from a month to another. This items have most of the time no price on the general price list. Just "call us".

 

[atlantis]

The refusal to give a price openly led to a lot of negativity for the seller who may or may not of had a good price..

No, it's not the refusal to give a price openly which has led to a lot of negativity. Even if price would have come up straight away, you would have had some people saying that it was outrageously priced comparing it with cheeses which could and should NOT be compared with what he was selling. Definitely comparing apples and oranges. You have dozens of examples in the former forum of advertisers who put their price and yet have been badgered.

Comparing a cheese bought in the US and brought in Indonesia without paying taxes and a whole different cheese quarantined and taxed in Indonesia couldn't lead the discussion anywhere. Really, let's remain serious. It's not the fact that he didn't priced his product which led the discussion south. It's the nature of some people who enjoy putting down others without having verified that their argument was comparable and make sense.

 

[fastpitch17]

It seems the debate is unwinnable since perhaps as you see it, a couple of exceptions make it impossible to change anything and the demands of the current rules stay intact because, you don't think they need change. I get it. Forums are not democracies and you own it so you get to call all the shots. It really doesn't matter what members input when it seems that it just doesn't matter to the admin. My choice will then be that anyone selling on here or offering a service will be ignored by this member. I can live with that.

 

[atlantis]

Forums are not democracies and you own it so you get to call all the shots.

Forums are indeed not democracy but the board (called the Moderation Team) which collectively admins and owns this forum functions as a democracy. Also, it publicizes its decisions and is ready to discuss and defend them with the users.

Last, please note that I didn't say that I am personally opposed to ask advertisers of product to price the items sold, but that there are exceptions where it makes no sense to impose it.

 

[waarmstrong]

No, it's not the refusal to give a price openly which has led to a lot of negativity. Even if price would have come up straight away, you would have had some people saying that it was outrageously priced comparing it with cheeses which could and should NOT be compared with what he was selling. Definitely comparing apples and oranges. You have dozens of examples in the former forum of advertisers who put their price and yet have been badgered.

Comparing a cheese bought in the US and brought in Indonesia without paying taxes and a whole different cheese quarantined and taxed in Indonesia couldn't lead the discussion anywhere. Really, let's remain serious. It's not the fact that he didn't priced his product which led the discussion south. It's the nature of some people who enjoy putting down others without having verified that their argument was comparable and make sense.

For me it is about the lack of price. I suppose there were some advertisers who felt badgered because members viewed their prices as too high, but I can not recall that being wide spread. Can you provide dozens (24 would be fine) of examples to back up your claim?

ps I thought the cheese thread was nothing short of hilarious. Maybe it was serious business for some, but in context, more like a comedy routine.

 

[atlantis]

Can you provide dozens (24 would be fine) of examples to back up your claim?

Erm... you may have forgotten it but I am banned from LIIF which impairs drastically my capacity to browse and search the forum should I wish to. However I think I recall you are not banned and still have all privileges required to investigate it. Browsing the housing and car forum would easily give you the number you requested without you wasting too much time. In these forum, particularly the housing forum, you would find a number of threads where the OP has been badgered for an alleged high price, with snide and disparaging comments, often by people who may have little knowledge of the market rate and definitely ABSOLUTELY no interest in acquiring any house/land. I have often investigated these ads to find out that they were also posted, with the same price, in Indonesian forum bit with no bitter comment from the membership. How strange...

Alternatively, if you can't browse yourself the forum, and perhaps some of your own posts there, I suggest you to ask wm to lift my ban and I'll oblige. It shouldn't take me long to sort you out a few examples of what I mean.

 

[Puspawarna]

It really doesn't matter what members input when it seems that it just doesn't matter to the admin. My choice will then be that anyone selling on here or offering a service will be ignored by this member. I can live with that.

FP, I think this is terribly unfair. Several members of the mod team have taken the time to encourage debate, read comments, and respond to them. I for one have spent considerable time on this issue in the last few days, and not because it's the most exciting thing I could be spending time on. No, it's because I'm committed to this board and to dialog with the membership. If we (mods) don't automatically do exactly what members ask, it isn't because we're not interested in opinions and don't think them through. Nor is it because we take some secret joy in ignoring what people say. Rather, it's because collectively we have a LOT of experience (atlantis in particular) on the dynamics of how message boards like this one operate. We're exercising judgment, not tyranny.

Your bitterness is a slap in the face. Though I guess, as you say, "I can live with that." It's disappointing, though.

 

[fastpitch17]

Bitterness? I don't think so. If that were the case I would just stop posting here completely. I would rather refer to it as an exercise in reality.

You see, members have brought up their concerns about not having more pricing required for some postings of items for sale. It seems to me that any suggestions or arguments towards tweeking the guidelines are basically just cast off with claims of unjust treatment towards those that list property mainly. Looking through some of those listings I have found a lot when no one questioned prices so, it goes both ways. The only person that keeps bringing up property pricing is Atlantis. Most have questioned some services of which they have agreed that someone that list a wide assortment of services would have a hard time in listing prices.

What members have asked is a change to requirements for products to have some kind of price guidelines. If they need to do some additional work setting up their ad, so be it. It's a free ad. If they have a hard time with that, pay for advertising. Also a change in requirements for specific services. If many services offered and price could vary depending on various variables, stat that but give examples.

What we seem to be getting is a we do it our way and talk all you want but screw any suggestions you have. As you see now, it has pretty much dwindled down to just me vs you. I guess that rule where you can't argue with Mods is being noticed. So, this will be my last post in this thread. Really, what's the use? Not bitter. I find that the Mods on here do an excellent job but, I think you are wrong on this pricing stuff by just ignoring it. JMHO

 

[Puspawarna]

What we seem to be getting is a we do it our way and talk all you want but screw any suggestions you have. As you see now, it has pretty much dwindled down to just me vs you. I guess that rule where you can't argue with Mods is being noticed. So, this will be my last post in this thread. Really, what's the use? Not bitter. I find that the Mods on here do an excellent job but, I think you are wrong on this pricing stuff by just ignoring it. JMHO

And what I'm hearing from you is, "screw the fact that I'm free to ask any advertiser about their prices, that isn't good enough for me."(Not sure where the property stuff is coming from - this is all about G&S. Housing is a different subforum and I don't see where atlantis talked about it, but I'll re-read the thread to educate myself.)

And clearly there is no rule against arguing with mods. We're doing it right now and I promise, no one has any penalties in mind for you or any other posters in this thread.

I'm glad you aren't bitter, though. If we were together in real life, I'm sure we could just agree to disagree, shrug our shoulders, and buy each other a beer. Hope so, anyway.

 

[waarmstrong]

Erm... you may have forgotten it but I am banned from LIIF which impairs drastically my capacity to browse and search the forum should I wish to. However I think I recall you are not banned and still have all privileges required to investigate it. Browsing the housing and car forum would easily give you the number you requested without you wasting too much time. In these forum, particularly the housing forum, you would find a number of threads where the OP has been badgered for an alleged high price, with snide and disparaging comments, often by people who may have little knowledge of the market rate and definitely ABSOLUTELY no interest in acquiring any house/land. I have often investigated these ads to find out that they were also posted, with the same price, in Indonesian forum bit with no bitter comment from the membership. How strange...

Alternatively, if you can't browse yourself the forum, and perhaps some of your own posts there, I suggest you to ask wm to lift my ban and I'll oblige. It shouldn't take me long to sort you out a few examples of what I mean.

I am sure there are "a few" examples across the hall, but I don't recall dozens. One reason I asked was to learn if you held yourself to the same standard applied to bludgeon Van H.

 

[Puspawarna]

Actually, it would be hard for anyone without mod privileges to find a lot those examples. Our MO over there was to delete stuff that clearly violated the PG. So the "best" examples are all gone now, is my guess.