Businesses Not Being Open About Cost in Goods and Services Forum

[Vanhelsing]

It is frustrating when businesses make excuses as to why they won't divulge pricing publicly on this forum when it would benefit everyone (including lurkers who may not be a member) to have access to that information.

Is it unreasonable to suggest that businesses who aren't willing to provide pricing on their goods and services have their right to free advertising revoked?


SekolaVictoryPlus raises a valid point as well, I believe.

As a school, when we advertise positions, we have to offer a range of salaries in this forum. (though that is not common in the rest of Indonesia) - why should a company advertising services have a different rule to an employer?

 

[fastpitch17]

Advertising services when there are a vast array of potential choices would be much more diffecult then advertising a single positions salary and benifits. Listing a vast array of prices when one doesn't even know exactly which services they would need would cause confusion.

I would think that a professed large service company would have a web site that could break down needs vs cost and I remember from the days of Agents when many did. Most of those had cost listed for various services but were basic. KITAS 5 juta, KITAP 10 juta, Retirement KITAS 60 juta for example. When actually contacting them they had the habbit of saying you will also need this and this even though those would be a normal need with the service you are inquiring of.

Any company that breaks down the various services separatly would have a hard time stating package prices. They could however come up with a price range for their services or at least some examples. They are serving individual needs and if they have a broad range of prices, they would be better off having it on their own web site. Listing prices here would just cause confusion if there is a multitude of different services and some would think the price is high but don't realize they don't need everything someone else needs.

If a service company that charges by a set time of an hour, day, week, month, or whatever time, then there is no reason not to list a price. If it is a company selling a product here, they too should list a price be it a car or cheese. Any one for one should have a price. If a company comes on here offering advise as to what someone needs because the different services are vast, then they should advise but not sell their services. You will need this, this, and this. I can help if you need it. Just PM me.

 

[ChrisTex]

Based the on the poster in question, I have some difficultly taking him seriously after he made a comment made that some of prices vary because of nationality. That posted didn't even say it is between X-Z and when you say you can share, but not the price, it raises lots of red flags.

 

[Puspawarna]

Can anyone link to a website of an agent that is transparent about pricing and gives approximate fees on line? I'm pretty sure I've seen such an animal before, but off the top of my head I don't know where to find one.

Speaking as a poster, not as a mod, I think it should be possible for agents to give approximate prices, with the caveat that final charges may change if there are complicating circumstances. For example, I have hired plenty of freelance editors in my time, and done freelance editing myself. No one expects an editor to be able to say, document unseen, exactly what the edit of a particular document will cost. However, a good editor should be able to say their basic pricing strategy ($50/hour and usually able to edit 250 words of reasonably coherent copy in 15 minutes if provided with a style guide, for example), then give a personalized quote after seeing the document. I would expect an honest, competent agent to be able to do the same.

 

[waarmstrong]

When the service provide centers on documents for foreigners to live and work in Indonesia, you would think that the company providing the service would be tuned into the customs and expectations of their potential clients. While not all potential clients are English speaking Westerners, I suspect that many are and that many more are accustomed to forthright transparency and a willingness to compete on price. I am not saying it is price exclusively that governs choice, but it certainly is an important consideration for most.

When a company, Basfana Ridan for example, rather clumsily and unconvincingly purposefully obscures the reasoning behind an unwillingness to quote a price or provide even the most general example of its pricing structure, it immediately marks itself as lacking the most basic understanding of those it purports to serve. In my mind, such behavior also reveals a company most interested in maximizing revenue and likely to quote a price based on the perceived size of your wallet coupled with an assumption you, the client, knows little about the actual fair market value of the service requested. In other words, such behavior identifies a predatory company viewing its clients as prey.

The suggestion that the lack of price transparency is excusable as a current Indonesian cultural norm is a self-serving disservice to Indonesian culture.

 

[William King]

I think it should be possible for agents to give approximate prices, with the caveat that final charges may change if there are complicating circumstances.

Exactly.

In other words, such behavior identifies a predatory company viewing its clients as prey.

Erm, yes. I think they all do.

 

[Anglian]

Shouldn't all advertisers put their price on display, if I want to sell a product like a car or a house, I have to display the price ,if I am selling a service then You need to know the price to save wasting time if too expensive

 

[dafluff]

For advertisers who provide services with many variables it is hard to give a set price. This is hardly a uniquely Indonesian problem. Very rarely would services such as say house painters, or plumbers give out fixed rates, even in Western countries. In these situation it is customary to request a quote. I imagine this can be done by our readers just fine.

Alternatively as has been mentioned, we can require them to give a range or estimate. This is of course utterly meaningless, as they can always change the price when actually approached by a customer, or add additional fees not mentioned before. Again, not a uniquely Indonesian problem either, since things such as "the fine print" or "hidden fees" are clearly in the English vocabulary. The only thing in my estimation that this does is give the advertiser a veneer of legitimacy. I rather the advertiser be obviously cryptic and the reader can immediately see this (believe it or not, people don't need to have this pointed out every single time either), rather than forcing the advertiser to a higher standard and give a sense of false professionalism. This is kinda analogous to how Nigerian scams are so easy to dismiss, because they are so obvious. If every Nigerian wrote like my banker, using logo and letterhead of my bank, I would have a slightly more hard time seeing the scam. At least I would have to read the letter, instead of just one sentence.

If however, this reduces the amount of off topic snarky remarks every time someone advertises, I am certainly open to the suggestion.

 

[fastpitch17]

Shouldn't all advertisers put their price on display, if I want to sell a product like a car or a house, I have to display the price ,if I am selling a service then You need to know the price to save wasting time if too expensive

Not with cheese evidently. How about, every listing for a product or service must describe all aspects of what's being offered and include the price and if that price is firm or could go lower. If every requirement is not in the listing then the post is removed and admin sends a PM explaining the rules and directions that they can repost their ad if it meets the forum requirements. If it can not then there are paid advertising methods available. All or none.

 

[dafluff]

every listing for a product or service must describe all aspects of what's being offered and include the price and if that price is firm or could go lower. If every requirement is not in the listing then the post is removed and admin sends a PM explaining the rules and directions

I would have no idea how to enforce someone to describe "all aspects" for an almost endless list of goods and services. And even if there was, there would be no way I'm wasting time making sure that it is all correct or even present. This isn't like housing where all that is listed are houses, or job openings where everything is just jobs. Also regarding housing or job listings, we basically continued the policy of the previous forum. Personally I don't see a need to have every detail we require, but it's the way it is.

This is still an all volunteer operation (actually, correction, I and the other mods, PAY for the privilege to volunteer), and there is no way I would want that kind of labor intensive policy.

 

[dafluff]

Also, in the history of this forum, there had been a grand total of 5 posts in the goods and services section from advertisers (not counting Puspa's giveaway). Three of those were apparently not up to muster to some of our membership, and received harsh critique (one thread since completely deleted). The other two inexplicable slipped under the radar, even though they also did not post any prices.

 

[Bad_azz]

I have to say that for our dogwalking/pet sitting we have a sliding scale of prices...
therefore it would be difficult to publish them as these factors have to be considered.
How far away do we have to travel- if outside our normal area wehave to add on costs to factor extra time/ fuel expenses (& mainly time as fuel isn't too big a deal).
We have to factor in what is required of us - for example if it is a breed with sensitive skin and we have been asked to do some skin care, ear cleaning etc.
I could just price it up in chunks of time but some things have a degree of risk more than others, such as trimming claws on a dog that hates it.

So we have a base rate that we add to depending on requirements.

I usually ask in a private email for the exact requirements of our visit & price it accordingly- BUT when I do price it I am open as to what the base rate is & what is deemed as extra & break down the costs -or offer an explanation as to why it is over the base rate.

So for me to slap an ad in here saying we will come to your house for 30 minutes and deal with Fido's needs for 75,000IDR is not really feasible.
I can say that such price is a quote for a collection, walk & return.
I could then say that if you want ear cleaning & nail trimming it will be a further 75,000 estimating it to take approximately 30 minutes more.... but that would be unfair to our customers if their pooch is docile & lazy & only wants to walk for 20 minutes & only takes 10 minutes for grooming needs... so I prefer to meet with the owner/animal & assess & tailor a price and package.
(* the prices mentioned are what we more or less work to- in a 30 minute radius from our home. We have a client who is almost an hour away & they have been a very good customer with a lovely pooch who is a pleasure to deal with; because they use our service every time they go away, I have given them some recognition for that in the form of a generous discount).

Maybe I am wrong to do this & if anyone has comments, suggestions / constructive criticism, I would be happy to hear it- after all we provide a service and want happy service users, be they canine or human.

 

[fastpitch17]

I would have no idea how to enforce someone to describe "all aspects" for an almost endless list of goods and services. And even if there was, there would be no way I'm wasting time making sure that it is all correct or even present. This isn't like housing where all that is listed are houses, or job openings where everything is just jobs. Also regarding housing or job listings, we basically continued the policy of the previous forum. Personally I don't see a need to have every detail we require, but it's the way it is.

This is still an all volunteer operation (actually, correction, I and the other mods, PAY for the privilege to volunteer), and there is no way I would want that kind of labor intensive policy.

Exactly. It would be a nightmare for anyone offering a vast array of services to list each and every price unless it based on time like temporary housekeeping services would work under. A nightmare for both poster and Mods. If services were to list a bunch of prices you would just have their competition undercutting them.

Products are different. Any product should have a price. Cars, property, cheese, art, whatever.

 

[waarmstrong]

For advertisers who provide services with many variables it is hard to give a set price. This is hardly a uniquely Indonesian problem. Very rarely would services such as say house painters, or plumbers give out fixed rates, even in Western countries. In these situation it is customary to request a quote. I imagine this can be done by our readers just fine.

Alternatively as has been mentioned, we can require them to give a range or estimate. This is of course utterly meaningless, as they can always change the price when actually approached by a customer, or add additional fees not mentioned before. Again, not a uniquely Indonesian problem either, since things such as "the fine print" or "hidden fees" are clearly in the English vocabulary. The only thing in my estimation that this does is give the advertiser a veneer of legitimacy. I rather the advertiser be obviously cryptic and the reader can immediately see this (believe it or not, people don't need to have this pointed out every single time either), rather than forcing the advertiser to a higher standard and give a sense of false professionalism. This is kinda analogous to how Nigerian scams are so easy to dismiss, because they are so obvious. If every Nigerian wrote like my banker, using logo and letterhead of my bank, I would have a slightly more hard time seeing the scam. At least I would have to read the letter, instead of just one sentence.

If however, this reduces the amount of off topic snarky remarks every time someone advertises, I am certainly open to the suggestion.

In the thread that gave birth to this chain of comments, the OP was given a simple set of circumstance and still refused to quote a price openly on the thread. What is more, the price quoted by PM, eventually, was explained to be considerably more than competitors. If an advertiser chooses to peddle his wares on an open forum and then obscures and manipulates in a manner demeaning to potential clients, then the push back is not only, not off topic, it is essential to the character of the forum. Calling push back "snark" as if you are some sort of wise sage able to appreciate the nuances of the circumstance that others miss, in my view is tantamount to providing cover for thieves and liers.

Along with its services, Basfana Ridan peddles a line of bull shit that masked a hefty mark-up. I don't feel their ilk should be awarded a free pass. If they are uncomfortable hunting on a preserve where the animals can shoot back, they should be encouraged to go elsewhere. Snark in the case at hand is better described as house cleaning.

 

[atlantis]

The other two inexplicable slipped under the radar, even though they also did not post any prices.

A moment of distraction of our membership I guess. Give me a minute and I am gonna crucify the impudent.

 

[atlantis]

I
Along with its services, Basfana Ridan peddles a line of bull shit that masked a hefty mark-up.

I apologize in advance if I have missed something, but in my 16 years here and after having read the bullshit advertised by many agent I am confused. Is it any different than any agent you would have met/heard of? To me the sole word "agent" has me cringed.

 

[dafluff]

In the thread that gave birth to this chain of comments, the OP was given a simple set of circumstance and still refused to quote a price openly on the thread. What is more, the price quoted by PM, eventually, was explained to be considerably more than competitors. If an advertiser chooses to peddle his wares on an open forum and then obscures and manipulates in a manner demeaning to potential clients, then the push back is not only, not off topic, it is essential to the character of the forum. Calling push back "snark" as if you are some sort of wise sage able to appreciate the nuances of the circumstance that others miss, in my view is tantamount to providing cover for thieves and liers.

Why don't you dial down the righteous indignation a couple of notches and give me a break.

First of all, I have no problem with the approach of requesting a quote, and then if proven to be significantly higher than what you know to be the case, to mention this. That is an honest review, and a concrete way of providing information to readers. But someone posting one liners such as "Give 'em the old razzle dazzle Razzle Dazzle 'em ....." is just off-topic flame baiting. If you are so offended by the advert, then at least put a little more thought into a proper response rather than just a lazy one liner (or alternatively hit the report button). One questions whether such a blasé response truly comes out of the altruistic desire to protect the readership, or more out of the need to inflate one's post count.

Also the harsh criticism in the advertising forum was not just toward this agent. Previously another advertiser was piled on for not providing prices for his cheese (which turned out to be decently priced after all), and yet another for inflating his writing skills. Like I observed before, 3 of 5 advertisers were subjected to this. You'd thought there was a big scandal going on, instead of some guy selling parmesan and a kid trying to make extra money copy writing stuff in English. May I suggest that there are probably other molehills to make mountains out off...

 

[waarmstrong]

Why don't you dial down the righteous indignation a couple of notches and give me a break.

First of all, I have no problem with the approach of requesting a quote, and then if proven to be significantly higher than what you know to be the case, to mention this. That is an honest review, and a concrete way of providing information to readers. But someone posting one liners such as "Give 'em the old razzle dazzle Razzle Dazzle 'em ....." is just off-topic flame baiting. If you are so offended by the advert, then at least put a little more thought into a proper response rather than just a lazy one liner (or alternatively hit the report button). One questions whether such a blasé response truly comes out of the altruistic desire to protect the readership, or more out of the need to inflate one's post count.

Also the harsh criticism in the advertising forum was not just toward this agent. Previously another advertiser was piled on for not providing prices for his cheese (which turned out to be decently priced after all), and yet another for inflating his writing skills. Like I observed before, 3 of 5 advertisers were subjected to this. You'd thought there was a big scandal going on, instead of some guy selling parmesan and a kid trying to make extra money copy writing stuff in English. May I suggest that there are probably other molehills to make mountains out off...

Sorry, the next time I will simply say, "the PO's response sounds like a pack of lies, to me anyway," although quoting a phase from Chicago, the musical, gets the point across in a more memorable fashion.

"Dial it down a bit" suggestions from a guy with a avatar of a chimpanzee cracking off rounds from a nine millimeter reminds me of a favorite quote which here I paraphrase: "Early in life I was faced with a choice between honest arrogance and hypocritical humility. In this instance, I am more comfortable with arrogance than hypocrisy.

 

[Puspawarna]

Sorry, the next time I will simply say, "the PO's response sounds like a pack of lies, to me anyway," although quoting a phase from Chicago, the musical, gets the point across in a more memorable fashion.

I assume I'm not telling you anything you don't already know when I point out that this is in direct violation of our posting guidelines. At some point I will get around to writing a justification for that dimension of our PG, but other activities have taken precedence and probably will for a while.

Meanwhile, while I don't wish to be a drama queen, it is a bit painful to me that, when the mod team worked really, really hard to quickly create a new place for dissatisfied Living In Indonesia members, and we spent (and continue to spend) our own money to do so, a highly valued and respected member such as yourself can't bear to abide by a relatively simple guideline that we, as mods, have deliberated over and implemented because we believe it is in the best interests of our forum's long term growth and health.

Would it be too much to ask if you could cut us a little slack in this regard? Thank you for hearing me out.

 

[dafluff]

I assume I'm not telling you anything you don't already know when I point out that this is in direct violation of our posting guidelines. At some point I will get around to writing a justification for that dimension of our PG, but other activities have taken precedence and probably will for a while.

Meanwhile, while I don't wish to be a drama queen, it is a bit painful to me that, when the mod team worked really, really hard to quickly create a new place for dissatisfied Living In Indonesia members, and we spent (and continue to spend) our own money to do so, a highly valued and respected member such as yourself can't bear to abide by a relatively simple guideline that we, as mods, have deliberated over and implemented because we believe it is in the best interests of our forum's long term growth and health.

Would it be too much to ask if you could cut us a little slack in this regard? Thank you for hearing me out.

I had a fiery retort ready for post #18, but instead let me just take a page from Puspa, and type out a more measured response. I will however point out that I take exception to being accused of "covering for thieves and liars" simply because I think that piling on 3 out of 5 advertisers is too high a ratio, and that I want factual, useful information over acerbic one-liners. If I was to be accused of anything, it should be of idiocy, since I continue to spend my time and money for the privilege of being told I'm in bed with thieves.

The reason almost all moderated forums do not allow non-sequiturs and/or one liner responses is that it doesn't advance the discussion. Similarly with immediate accusation of fraud etc. Even the most genuine advertiser will have a difficult time to respond politely to accusations of fraud, especially if done by multiple long time members. Even worse, advertisers who may have goods/services of interest to the members of this forum can take one look at the treatment they get from forum members and may decide to pass.

The guidelines we have set up for the classified forum is very simple: "Absolutely no off topic posting allowed. This includes speculation as to the motives of advertisers. If you have actual experiences (positive or negative) or genuine questions you may post those. If you have any concerns regarding an advertising, please use the report button to alert the moderators so they may investigate."

If going forward adherence to this guideline proves to be too difficult for some, we may have to consider other measures. Some options have been mentioned here already such as making the Classified forums read-only. Or we may go without one altogether.