Back as an upper-middle income country, but will Indonesia be trapped there?

[Samoerai]

But yeah, due to change in shifts and so on, economy probably isn't as productive as usual

Believe it or not... today in the Dutch newspapers... lack of sleep costs society billions of euros per year.

They are less productive, make mistakes and get sick easily (the immune system is weakened).

 

[MamangDudul]

Believe it or not... today in the Dutch newspapers... lack of sleep costs society billions of euros per year.

They are less productive, make mistakes and get sick easily (the immune system is weakened).

Well, I believe it. I think some industries earn pretty good during Ramadan, while overall there probably isn't much of a positive effect. Because yeah, fasting comes with certain "downsides" that probably can't be changed. To be clear, that is not me criticizing fasting or religion, it is what it is and we and the economy have to live with it. The positive thing is that at least in some ways money doesn't win over everything. That being said, the economy in countries where fasting is the most common are already used to it and prepared. As for european/western countries with a high number of muslim immigrants, well they have to deal with it, that's also part of a politic of open borders. Again, it is what it is and that's alright.

 

[pantaiema]

The situation in Indonesia and in the west especially in western European countries is different. In western European countries, reasonable number of preachers, hate preachers (if not the vast majority) live on the state benefit / the taxpayers to support the entirely family. So they could keep preaching their beliefs, ideologies without worrying what he and their family need to eat today, where they need to sleep to night, who will pay their healthcare bill, who will pay for their children education, etc. They also get free legal bill as their lawyers are likely to be payed by the tax payers to defend them against society who pay the system.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/book...who-benefits/FA803C577B99E98D0FF23A44313A9DF0 7 - From hate preachers to scroungers: who benefits?

https://police.community/topic/216350-hate-preacher-gets-50k-in-benefits-and-£1-million-house/ Hate preacher gets 50k in benefits and £1 million house

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-year-benefits-calls-fanatics-live-state.html Hate preacher pocketing £25,000 a year in benefits calls on fanatics to live off the state. This was back in 2013

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...tada-enjoying-800-000-home-life-benefits.html Pictured: Smiling preacher of hate Abu Qatada enjoying an £800,000 home and a life of benefits

 

[Samoerai]

The positive thing is that at least in some ways money doesn't win over everything. That being said, the economy in countries where fasting is the most common are already used to it and prepared

True, here religion is the glue of the society, gives people identity and a sense of belonging.

The title of this thread however is about the economy of Indonesia. That's why I asked these questions.

 

[MamangDudul]

The title of this thread however is about the economy of Indonesia. That's why I asked these questions.

Yes, sure. Sorry if anything came across wrong in my posts. Not for one second I had any critique towards you. Iam also interested in this topic and never really thought about it much before today. So thanks to the forum and some google research I learned a few things again today.

 

[Samoerai]

Yes, sure. Sorry if anything came across wrong in my posts. Not for one second I had any critique towards you. Iam also interested in this topic and never really thought about it much before today. So thanks to the forum and some google research I learned a few things again today.

Not offended at all. I thank you too for your point of view. Not all is about economy.

 

[MamangDudul]

The situation in In Indonesia and in the west especially in western European countries is different. In western European countries, reasonable number preachers, hate preachers live on the state benefit / the taxpayers to support the entirely family. So they could keep preaching their beliefs, ideologies without the need to think what he and their family need to eat today.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/book...who-benefits/FA803C577B99E98D0FF23A44313A9DF0 7 - From hate preachers to scroungers: who benefits?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-year-benefits-calls-fanatics-live-state.html Hate preacher pocketing £25,000 a year in benefits calls on fanatics to live off the state

Well concerning this topic, the problem in the west is that many of the European countries go with a style of politic that is more and more driven by ideologies. Instead of basing your politics on real economical and social realities and consequences. Well, can't say it a any better, Iam not very eloquent in English nor in my own language haha.
That's why the west is in a ship that is slowly sinking if they continue this way .

 

[harryopal1]

Nations may rise or fall but usually there is always a wealthy clique that manages to maintain its wealth regardless of what happens to the struggling masses.

 

[pantaiema]

Well concerning this topic, the problem in the west is that many of the European countries go with a style of politic that is more and more driven by ideologies. Instead of basing your politics on real economical and social realities and consequences. Well, can't say it a any better, Iam not very eloquent in English nor in my own language haha.
That's why the west is in a ship that is slowly sinking if they continue this way .

We've observed evidence in affluent East and Southeast and other Asian nations such as Singapore, South Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan and notably China and Japan. It's understandable why there are not many immigrant hate preachers are willing to immigrate to these countries compared to Western Europe. In these countries, not only would they struggle to propagate their ideology without gaining employment first to support their living and family living expenses, but their entire family could face severe repercussions, potentially uprooting them entirely.

 

[Shadrach]

Nations may rise or fall but usually there is always a wealthy clique that manages to maintain its wealth regardless of what happens to the struggling masses.

That's because they hide it in foreign banks, Cayman islands for one. If the country they're in goes to hell, they have a home probably in many different countries, so they just hop on their private jet and blast off!

 

[Samoerai]

I think Samoerai's number 10 on the list to help Indonesia get out of the middle-income trap has something to do with more productivity and better concentration after a good night's sleep. I'd prefer that the mosque speakers be used only for the adzan, but I am unsure if this will significantly increase GDP.
With all respect to Samoerai, I think some other items on his list will cause more harm than good. Allow me to elaborate.
1. Dua anak cukup.
I think this is not something the government should interfere with, it's a couple's choice to have no children, 1 or many. Besides that, capping at 2 kids max with a 15% infertility rate of couples, the population will shrink. And that will hurt the economy. A lot. With less consumption companies' stock market value will go down, aging population with no one to pay pensions and take care of the elderly. Japan, and Korea are already experiencing it. Some Western European countries escape this by net migration, but this has its pitfalls.
Rather, a growing population is good for the economy, and labor could become an export product of Indonesia to countries that are in dire need of workers (see the thread on nurses needed abroad)
6. Improved infrastructure is vital, but as we can see happening right now some of these investments are made with huge loans from foreign countries (China). This will make Indonesia vulnerable to their growing influence.
8. Banning fossil fuels in a poor country like Indonesia will lead to a complete economic standstill. Forbidding the affordable means of transportation while subsidizing the more expensive EV's will cause great inequality and division between rich and poor.
9. A social security system...will this create a better economy? Higher taxes that's for sure. Wages will have to go up to compete, and more inflation?

With number 2 I agree very much, education needs to be affordable and of good quality. It's a very important key to progress and development.

Here is another list ... from the World Bank

https://www.worldbank.org/en/countr...on/pathways-to-middle-class-jobs-in-indonesia saying

"Further, medium-sized and large foreign manufacturing firms, who hire more than domestic firms and pay higher wages, are less prevalent in Indonesia than in regional competitors that have leveraged foreign direct investment (FDI) for rapid economic and job growth."

See video https://www.worldbank.org/en/countr...on/pathways-to-middle-class-jobs-in-indonesia