Australian Aged Pension and the 2 year portability rule.

[centurion]

It is a common knowledge that In Indonesia, dual nationality is not permitted. However, if an Indonesian acquires citizenship in another country, the process of losing Indonesian citizenship is lenghty and complicated. Only the Indonesian president can officially declare the loss of Indonesian citizenship, and this must be done through a presidential decree.

A common example, especially in the past, is children from mixed marriages who, upon turning 18, simply pretend not to hold dual nationality until they get caught. They often get caught when they request services, like asking an Indonesian passport to enable them to travel outside Indonesian territory. At that point, it is not unusual for them to be asked for an affidavit.

If I recall correctly, I have previously shared some examples of this situation in this forum. For instance, former Vice Minister Alchandra Tahar and the former regent of Sabu Raijua in East Nusa Tenggara Orient P Riwu Kore were both getting caught to hold U.S. citizenship.

Additionally, some Indonesians are born in the U.S. There are rumors that the former Indonesian president's daughter in law holds dual nationality, as she was born in the U.S., with no reports of her renouncing her American citizenship. This is similar to a former minister from former Indonesian president's cabinet. In the US Supreme Court has ruled that anyone born in the US cannot lose heir citizenship unless they voluntarily renounce it.

In Indonesia, in such cases, if getting caught they simply renounced one of their citizenships.

Another past example involves Muslim hardliners who joined ISIS and appeared in video clips provoking the Indonesian government. In response, the Indonesian president issued a decree revoking their citizenship. However, they are not considered stateless, as the Indonesian government argues they still hold citizenship with ISIS and they consider ISIS is a country at that time.

In all of the cases above noone has become stateless when their Indonesian citizenship are revoked.

The process of renouncing Indonesian citizenship is very simple and fast, abroad and in the country. No decree is needed from the president (this is not even in the law I think, but automatism is considered) for the Ministry of Law to issue certificate that you are not a citizen as well. Indonesian citizenship is hard to get and easy to lose.

If caught redhanded with two or more citizenships, in the eyes of the law you can get the consequences with or without decree, meaning you would be automatically considered foreigner, your Indonesian passport will be seized and the assets that you do not have right could be confiscated (hak milik, shares in local PTs etc).

 

[harryopal1]

But

That is correct. When Indonesian citizenship is revoked, it must not leave the person stateless. This is clearly stated in the law with no ambiguity. If revoking Indonesian citizenship would lead the people to become stateless, the decision becomes invalid and can be readily contested in court. In cases where Indonesians are involved in serious crimes like terrorism or drug trafficking, their citizenship is not revoked. Instead, they are often sentenced to the death penalty.

It is a common knowledge that In Indonesia, dual nationality is not permitted. However, if an Indonesian acquires citizenship in another country, the process of losing Indonesian citizenship is lenghty and complicated. Only the Indonesian president can officially declare the loss of Indonesian citizenship, and this must be done through a presidential decree.

A common example, especially in the past, is children from mixed marriages who, upon turning 18, simply pretend not to hold dual nationality until they get caught. They often get caught when they request services, like asking an Indonesian passport to enable them to travel outside Indonesian territory. At that point, it is not unusual for them to be asked for an affidavit.

If I recall correctly, I have previously shared some examples of this situation in this forum. For instance, former Vice Minister Alchandra Tahar and the former regent of Sabu Raijua in East Nusa Tenggara Orient P Riwu Kore were both getting caught to hold U.S. citizenship.

Additionally, some Indonesians are born in the U.S. There are rumors that the former Indonesian president's daughter in law holds dual nationality, as she was born in the U.S., with no reports of her renouncing her American citizenship. This is similar to a former minister from former Indonesian president's cabinet. In the US Supreme Court has ruled that anyone born in the US cannot lose heir citizenship unless they voluntarily renounce it.

In Indonesia, in such cases, if getting caught they simply renounced one of their citizenships.

Another past example involves Muslim hardliners who joined ISIS and appeared in video clips provoking the Indonesian government. In response, the Indonesian president issued a decree revoking their citizenship. However, they are not considered stateless, as the Indonesian government argues they still hold citizenship with ISIS and they consider ISIS is a country at that time.

In all of the cases above noone has become stateless when their Indonesian citizenship are revoked.

But how does this work? Let us say Wayan lives in the US but is an Indonesian citizen. He posts some outrageous remarks about the Indonesian president which leads to his citizenship being revoked. Now if Wayan wants to travel and his citizenship has been revoked I presume his passport would no longer be valid. His US visa is about to expire so what happens then?

 

[Samoerai]

I think we discussed this already in the thread ..

Indonesian citizenship law

I just read this 'old' thread, because an Indonesian lawyer/notaris said that maybe my wife (WNI) lost her Indonesian citizenship, because she married me (WNA) and lived in The Netherlands for more than 5 years (legally documented with stay permit etc). I checked this online and found a thesis /...

www.expatindo.org

 

[pantaiema]

The process of renouncing Indonesian citizenship is very simple and fast, abroad and in the country. No decree is needed from the president (this is not even in the law I think, but automatism is considered) for the Ministry of Law to issue certificate that you are not a citizen as well. Indonesian citizenship is hard to get and easy to lose.

If caught redhanded with two or more citizenships, in the eyes of the law you can get the consequences with or without decree, meaning you would be automatically considered foreigner, your Indonesian passport will be seized and the assets that you do not have right could be confiscated (hak milik, shares in local PTs etc).

There is a more appropriate thread in here, so let continue it in here.

Indonesian citizenship law

I just read this 'old' thread, because an Indonesian lawyer/notaris said that maybe my wife (WNI) lost her Indonesian citizenship, because she married me (WNA) and lived in The Netherlands for more than 5 years (legally documented with stay permit etc). I checked this online and found a thesis /...

www.expatindo.org

 

[pantaiema]

But

But how does this work? Let us say Wayan lives in the US but is an Indonesian citizen. He posts some outrageous remarks about the Indonesian president which leads to his citizenship being revoked. Now if Wayan wants to travel and his citizenship has been revoked I presume his passport would no longer be valid. His US visa is about to expire so what happens then?

What Happen ?? Well, they either simply cannot travel outside the US, or they might have another passport that they could covertly use to do an international travel.
Keep in mind :

• Denying consular services or refusing to renew Wayan’s passport is not the same as formally revoking his Indonesian nationality.
• Someone claiming that Wayan has lost his nationality is not the same as an official revocation.
• Wayan cannot travel outside the US is not the same as an official revocation. It is the same thing with someone you know is hiding your passport, you cannot travel as well.
• Similarly, someone fabricating a story about becoming stateless is not the same as what the embassy staff believes. Keep in mind if they do not believe the person fabricated story they could simply refuse to renew the Indonesian passport and/or provide consular services.
• Displaying an expired U.S. visa to embassy does not mean that the person does not hold U.S. nationality or another nationality. Remember, it’s very challenging, if not impossible, for the embassy to prove that someone has got another nationality without a backlash. This is one reason why some Indonesian citizens hold dual passports without being detected.

In Indonesian context, authorities often take such actions without providing justification. There are examples across this forum where they are acting against their own law, regulation. Another good example In the past was during the Suharto regime with Indonesian students studying abroad in the communist countries like in Russia, Czechoslovakia (Ex - Czech republic) sponsored the Indonesian government under the Sukarno regime. Many of them cannot returned to Indonesia as the Embassy have been ordered not to extend their passports, give them consular services, unless these students want to sign a personal statement against their will. The immigration was also ordered to refuse them entry to Indonesia territory.

Nowadays, in the reform order a few people have challenged such decisions in the constitutional court. But during Suharto regime, the new order, there is no constitutional court. But this is subject to a wider discussion.

 

[harryopal1]

Sorry. I still don't understand. Foreget about dual citizenship. The Wayan case is not a real case. However, if a person overseas made outrageous remarks about the Indonesian president and his citizenship were revoked and he only had an Indonesian passport, how is this person then not stateless. Can he return to Indonesia? I still don't get how a person's citzenship can be revoked and then how is he not stateless?

 

[pantaiema]

Sorry. I still don't understand. Foreget about dual citizenship. The Wayan case is not a real case. However, if a person overseas made outrageous remarks about the Indonesian president and his citizenship were revoked and he only had an Indonesian passport, how is this person then not stateless. Can he return to Indonesia? I still don't get how a person's citzenship can be revoked and then how is he not stateless?

Have you ever seen a case in Indonesian history where an Indonesian citizen’s nationality was revoked, leaving them stateless? This would be the last thing the Indonesian government would ever consider, as it goes against both Indonesian own law and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR). The UDHR Article 15 states that everyone has the right to a nationality and cannot be arbitrarily deprived of it.

What have happened in the past, their passport was simply not extended, not their nationality revoked. Additionally, only the Indonesian president has the authority to officially revoke someone Indonesian's nationality, not the embassy nor the immigration. Even in cases involving Indonesian ISIS jihadists, the government has argued that revoking their Indonesian nationality did not make them stateless, as they still have "ISIS citizenship" which by both Indonesian ISIS jihadists and the Indonesian government see ISIS is a state at that time. Other people, international organisations might argue ISIS is not an official state but that is Indonesian government opinion, and based on this they have decided to revoke their nationalities.

Another point to consider is that what you and I think may not align with the perspective of Indonesian government. In all the cases mentioned above, no one has become stateless in the eyes of the Indonesian government. In this era of reform, if the person has energy and resources, this could still be challenged in the constitutional court.

If this still does not clarify the issue, I may need to refrain from further explaining it ...

 

[harryopal1]

Pantaeima, you had previousy said, "" it is clearly stated that while Indonesian citizenship could be revoked, it does not allow the Indonesian people to become stateless when their citizenship is revoked."

If a person were out of Indonesia in another country and their citizenship were revoked then I presume their passport would no longer be valid. In such a case they would not be able to contest the case in court if they were in a different country. This really doesn't make sense. No citizenship and no passport would mean they were stateless.

 

[Balifrog]

Sorry. I still don't understand. Foreget about dual citizenship. The Wayan case is not a real case. However, if a person overseas made outrageous remarks about the Indonesian president and his citizenship were revoked and he only had an Indonesian passport, how is this person then not stateless. Can he return to Indonesia? I still don't get how a person's citzenship can be revoked and then how is he not stateless?

Harry, it has been mentionned several times that a country can NOT make one of it's own citizens stateless. It is in the U.N. regulations and in the Indo constitution as mentionned by somebody.
However, a country can make life difficult for somebody by, for example, refusing to issue / renew a passport, decline consular services etc...
Things currently done by Russia and Ukraine to their citizens who fled the country.
There is a reason why many rich people from any country always have 2 or 3 passports !