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[centurion]

Which countries are the most racist? New survey says UK is one of the least racist

The findings of the new study clash with previous findings about UK’s racial prejudices

www.standard.co.uk

 

[pantaiema]

... I ask you how you determine that. How do you measure that and how do you compare it with other countries? In what order do you place the different types of racism? And racism from different eras in the past, institutional or not, how do you weigh that? This quickly becomes very problematic.....

Certain aspects are subjective rather than measurable, and they can be discerned through general observations. Your inquiries is multi billions IDR questions.

Researchers or institutions can only conduct research if they have access to funding, which can also enhance their visibility. Who would be willing to do so? The Indonesian government, researchers? Who would be interested in pursuing research when there's a risk of ending up in legal trouble instead? People seem more inclined to engage in divisive activities in society that involve immigrant populations due to the allure of popularity, political advantages, and available funding. This is not to say the data is not available but it might be difficult to find. You do not want to spend time just to proof to a single person.

I've made my points. Now, let's consider the opposite perspective. Can you identify, name a few countries that exhibit comparable or even more problematic situations in the following areas:

a. The treatment of their own citizens. restricting their own citizen from attending state-funded universities, working as civil servants, or joining the armed forces.
b. State-sponsored racism. Used to be stated in the constitution,
c. The treatment of immigrant populations from different islands within the same country.

 

[pantaiema]

Which countries are the most racist? New survey says UK is one of the least racist

The findings of the new study clash with previous findings about UK’s racial prejudices

www.standard.co.uk

I have seen that article before.

"Nationals from the 24 countries studied were asked who they would not want to have as a neighbour. The number of nationals who responded by saying they would not want to live next door to immigrants and/or foreign workers was then ranked, with Iran leading the list with 42 per cent."

What Pak Tani and I are discussing is an entirely different form of racial discrimination. It's essential to consider that these cindos and, to some extent, Indian and Javanese immigrants are citizens of Indonesia. Like many Americans, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders, south Africans in the early days, their ancestor are immigrant but these people are not. Vast majority of them belong to the second or third generation.

But even within the same category with the article in the standard, Indonesia still sit in No.12.

The issue of illegal immigration in the UK presents a significant challenge, with individuals crossing the English Channel in small boats from Calais. It's worth noting that many of them have resided in various European and safe countries for an extended period. Their living cost, accommodation, helath care, educations and other expenses related to are borne by UK taxpayers once they landed in the UK. In Indonesia, these cindos, indians, javanese migrants to other island don't impose any financial burden on Indonesian taxpayers or the government; in fact, they contribute by paying taxes.

 

[centurion]

I have seen that article before before.

"Nationals from the 24 countries studied were asked who they would not want to have as a neighbour. The number of nationals who responded by saying they would not want to live next door to immigrants and/or foreign workers was then ranked, with Iran leading the list with 42 per cent."

What Pak Tani and I are discussing is an entirely different form of racial discrimination. It's essential to consider that these cindos and, to some extent, Indian and Javanese immigrants are citizens of Indonesia. Like many americans, Austalians, canadians, newzelanders, south africans in the early days, their ancestor are immignrat but these people are not. Vast majority of them belong to the second or third generation.

The issue of illegal immigration in the UK presents a significant challenge, with individuals crossing the English Channel in small boats from Calais. It's worth noting that many of them have resided in various European and safe countries for an extended period. Their living cost, accommodation, educations and other expenses related to are borne by UK taxpayers once they landed in the UK. In Indinesia, these cindos, indians, javanese migrant to other island don't impose any financial burden on Indonesian taxpayers or the government; in fact, they contribute by paying taxes.

I think papuans are considered third-class citizens to begin with. Arabs, Indians and Chinese at least have money.

 

[Pak Tani]

I have seen that article before.

"Nationals from the 24 countries studied were asked who they would not want to have as a neighbour. The number of nationals who responded by saying they would not want to live next door to immigrants and/or foreign workers was then ranked, with Iran leading the list with 42 per cent."

What Pak Tani and I are discussing is an entirely different form of racial discrimination.

What form of racism are we discussing then? I asked you to support your claim of Indonesia being one of the most racist countries. Measuring and determining how racist a country is, is quite a challenge. Especially if you want to throw a country's history into the mix. What standards are you going to use?

Interviewing people about the topic of racism is one way to look at 'how racist a country is'. You can then compare the results with other countries' findings and that is what they did. The amount of data collected by WVS (World Values Survey) is quite impressing.

If you have any other ways to measure a country's level of racism, please share.

To your quote above I would like to add that 'not wanting to live next to immigrants foreign workers' is not a good measurement of racism. Especially in the west, many immigrants and foreign workers are other whites from other parts of Europe or other western countries. For instance Poland used to be number one origin of most immigrants/foreign workers in the UK.

...Indonesia still sit in No.12.

They held surveys in 90 countries and they picked 24 countries that they think give a good representation of the world's/regional population. Indonesia was number 12 of those 24 countries.
But if you scroll down, you'll see a ranking of countries based on how many nationals said they don't want to live next to people of a different race. Indonesia is number 14 (of 24 countries) with 9%.

If these 24 countries are a good representation and if you agree that this question is a valid question to measure a certain level of racism, then Indonesia could be less racist than half of the world's population/countries.

 

[pantaiema]

What form of racism are we discussing then? I asked you to support your claim of Indonesia being one of the most racist countries. Measuring and determining how racist a country is, is quite a challenge. Especially if you want to throw a country's history into the mix. What standards are you going to use?

Interviewing people about the topic of racism is one way to look at 'how racist a country is'. You can then compare the results with other countries' findings and that is what they did. The amount of data collected by WVS (World Values Survey) is quite impressing.

If you have any other ways to measure a country's level of racism, please share.

To your quote above I would like to add that 'not wanting to live next to immigrants foreign workers' is not a good measurement of racism. Especially in the west, many immigrants and foreign workers are other whites from other parts of Europe or other western countries. For instance Poland used to be number one origin of most immigrants/foreign workers in the UK.

They held surveys in 90 countries and they picked 24 countries that they think give a good representation of the world's/regional population. Indonesia was number 12 of those 24 countries.
But if you scroll down, you'll see a ranking of countries based on how many nationals said they don't want to live next to people of a different race. Indonesia is number 14 (of 24 countries) with 9%.

If these 24 countries are a good representation and if you agree that this question is a valid question to measure a certain level of racism, then Indonesia could be less racist than half of the world's population/countries.

I'm not aware of a universally agreed-upon method for assessing the extent of racism within a country.

Measuring racism is a complex undertaking due to its deeply rooted nature in societal and psychological aspects, encompassing attitudes, behaviours, and systemic structures. It's important to note that racism is often subjective rather than quantifiable, and one often relies on general observations to discern its presence.

Nevertheless, there is a widely accepted definition of racial discrimination provided by the United Nations office for High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR):

https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/international-convention-elimination-all-forms-racial

"In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."

Considering this definition above , let's assess the scenarios I have presented multiple times:
a. Restricting one's own citizens from attending state-funded universities, working as civil servants, or joining the armed forces
b. State-sponsored racism, as stipulated in a country's constitution,
c. Treating immigrant populations from different islands within the same country

a to c are facts that align with the generally accepted definition of racial discrimination by OCHCR. All of these are well-documented by newspapers and official documents. So it is not an opinion but facts.

It's not always necessary to establish a specific index to determine the severity of racial discrimination in different countries. Instead, you can just make comparisons based on the presence of such discriminatory practices.

State-sponsored racism, let alone written in the constitution is relatively rare on a global scale. Any collective endeavour sanctioned by a government carries significantly more weight than actions taken by individuals. The one witnessed during the Nazi regime in Germany targeting Jewish people, is one example and well-documented in the history. Such instances in Indonesia and Germany are not widespread in most countries.

If you and other people can not name a handful number of countries, or find a source from the reputable news that exhibit comparable or worse patterns to the scenarios I've outlined a to c above, it would be reasonable to conclude that Indonesia belong to one of the countries with significant issues with racial discrimination.

 

[Pak Tani]

Considering this definition above , let's assess the scenarios I have presented multiple times:
a. Restricting one's own citizens from attending state-funded universities, working as civil servants, or joining the armed forces
b. State-sponsored racism, as stipulated in a country's constitution,
c. Treating immigrant populations from different islands within the same country
...
If you and other people can not name a handful number of countries, or find a source from the reputable news that exhibit comparable or worse patterns to the scenarios I've outlined a to c above, it would be reasonable to conclude that Indonesia belong to one of the countries with significant issues with racial discrimination.

There are over 190 countries worldwide, and I can't name them all. Let alone that I know their policy on excluding certain groups from government-funded universities. Or which parts of their legislation could be racist and how that compares with other racist legislation from other countries and how to rank that.

 

[harryopal1]

Ultimately, as argued above, the conclusion that one country is more racist than another is based on subjective impressions often formed by the extent to which racist behaviour is reported in various media. And it is an important point, as also stated above, that legislated racism has much to do with the way multi racial societies function. In countries that have no social nets to assist incoming migrants, both legal and illegal, the attitude in the with many people in the general community is that they believe that where there is social assistance the undeserving newcomers get more than the locals. And where there is no such support then a starve or steal situation may develop which also adds to the dislike of foreigners. With the added pressures of millions of people in dysfunctional states doing anything to get into a more developed country then the whole worldwide social scenario becomes much more precarious.

In Australia, we are reaping the results of two centuries of oppression and ill treatment of indigenous people. It can be shown that in states with larger Aboriginal populations there is a much higher ratio of imprisonment than in the general population. Some cities have now serious problems with car theft and anti social behaviour often stemming from alienated indigenous youth. This has reinforced many prejudices so discrimination is pretty much a daily experience for our indigenous Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. Yet the next Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander we meet may be a very decent person who does not deserve to be disregarded or ill-treated.

At a personal level we need to try and cling to the notion that in civilized societies race, religion or colour does the not diminish the rights of minorities to be provided with the same equal opportunities as the mainstream. We all tend to develop attitudes towards those who are different so it is not easy to remember that the next individual we meet from a perceived troublesome community may be an upright , honest person and deserves to be allowed same access to social and work possibilities as anyone else unless that individual behaves in such a manner that they might reasonably be excluded from acceptance.

Racism does not just diminish the person on the receiving end, it diminishes us all

 

[Samoerai]

Well, in The Netherlands there is a growing awareness of discrimination. So, an advisory board was installed in 2020. The advisory board was tasked with organizing a dialogue within the Netherlands about the history of slavery and its impact (read: institutional racism and discrimination) in contemporary society.

Recommendations of this board: 1 july 2021:

To strengthen education, take measures to ensure that the topics of the history of slavery and its impact in the present become a permanent part of the curriculum.

Strengthen knowledge about the meaning of discrimination in everyday life and take action
legal measures to combat racism and xenophobia. Take care of it
systematic enforcement.

To this end, implement a structural, intersectional program to combat discrimination and racism, including institutional and ethnic racism profiling.

In addition, the fight against institutional racism in the labor market, the housing market, education and the police, deserves specific and urgent attention.

Personally I like discrimination more when it is obvious (like written down in laws) than (a stand up comedian once said) 'ninja' discrimination: one is excluded but you don't know the real reason.

 

[Bob]

The only one I can think of is Ahok

 

[Shadrach]

Ultimately, as argued above, the conclusion that one country is more racist than another is based on subjective impressions often formed by the extent to which racist behaviour is reported in various media. And it is an important point, as also stated above, that legislated racism has much to do with the way multi racial societies function. In countries that have no social nets to assist incoming migrants, both legal and illegal, the attitude in the with many people in the general community is that they believe that where there is social assistance the undeserving newcomers get more than the locals. And where there is no such support then a starve or steal situation may develop which also adds to the dislike of foreigners. With the added pressures of millions of people in dysfunctional states doing anything to get into a more developed country then the whole worldwide social scenario becomes much more precarious. At a personal level we need to try and cling to the notion that in civilized societies race, religion or colour does the not diminish the rights of minorities to be provided with equal opportunities as the mainstream. We all tend to develop attitudes towards those who are different so it is not easy to remember that the next individual we meet from a perceived troublesome community may be a decent, honest person and deserves to be allowed those opportunities unless that individual behaves in such a manner that they might reasonably be excluded from acceptance.

In Australia, we are reaping the results of two centuries of oppression and ill treatment of indigenous people. It can be shown that in states with larger Aboriginal populations there is a much higher ratio of imprisonment than in the general population. Some cities have now serious problems with car theft and anti social behaviour often stemming from alienated indigenous youth. This has reinforced many prejudices so discrimination is pretty much a daily experience for our indigenous Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. Yet the next Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander we meet may be a very decent person who does not deserve to be disregarded or ill-treated.

At a personal level we need to try and cling to the notion that in civilized societies race, religion or colour does the not diminish the rights of minorities to be provided with the same equal opportunities as the mainstream. We all tend to develop attitudes towards those who are different so it is not easy to remember that the next individual we meet from a perceived troublesome community may be an upright , honest person and deserves to be allowed same access to social and work possibilities as anyone else unless that individual behaves in such a manner that they might reasonably be excluded from acceptance.

Racism does not just diminish the person on the receiving end, it diminishes us all

Thank you Harryopal for expressing this subject in a way that is easier to understand. Some of the posts are way to formal and speak in a way that is difficult to understand. I totally can understand how the Aboriginal youth are angry and feel under represented! I have seen this same situation in the US. When the cities and lands were divided up and so called planned out! The Blacks, Latinos, Asians, Native Americans, were given the worst parts and the Whites were given the best! Then as time progressed and the cities developed and the Interstate highways were built, they went through the poor communities, not the affluent White communities! These people were given the shitty end of the stick right from the start. I totally understand them being upset and angry against the city planners and government officials that make the situation like it is. Everyone deserves a chance!

 

[pantaiema]

Personally I like discrimination more when it is obvious (like written down in laws) than (a stand up comedian once said) 'ninja' discrimination: one is excluded but you don't know the real reason.

Discrimination is a persistent presence in society. However, what is generally prohibited is discrimination that is based on specific protected attributes, often called protected characteristics of human which include age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership status, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion or belief, sex, and sexual orientation.

Regrettably, Indonesia still falls behind in the areas highlighted above.

 

[Shadrach]

Discrimination is a persistent presence in society. However, what is generally prohibited is discrimination that is based on specific protected attributes, often called protected characteristics of human which include age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership status, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion or belief, sex, and sexual orientation.

Regrettably, Indonesia still falls behind in the areas highlighted above.

What the hell is gender reassignment? This is getting out of this world now? What are they going to do, cut parts off? Add parts on? Make a man a woman? Make a woman a man? When I see a Man get pregnant and give birth with a vagina! This world has definitely gone Bonkers! I guess I am just old fashioned. I remember when a man was a man and a woman was a woman. They could be Gay and I thought that's fine if they love each other, or they could be heterosexual and that was fine. But this is getting too far out there for me when people start changing from one sex to another!

 

[pantaiema]

What the hell is gender reassignment? This is getting out of this world now? What are they going to do, cut parts off? Add parts on? Make a man a woman? Make a woman a man? When I see a Man get pregnant and give birth with a vagina! This world has definitely gone Bonkers! I guess I am just old fashioned. I remember when a man was a man and a woman was a woman. They could be Gay and I thought that's fine if they love each other, or they could be heterosexual and that was fine. But this is getting too far out there for me when people start changing from one sex to another!

The explanation of all protected characteristics is here:

Protected characteristics | Equality and Human Rights Commission

Brief descriptive overview of the nine Protected Characteristics

www.equalityhumanrights.com

Gender reassignment: The process of transitioning from one sex to another.
Gender reassignment is a protected Characteristics recognised by many countries. To my knowledge, US, EU, UK, CA, AU, NZ, SA,

 

[Shadrach]

Well if people start doing this, then they should switch heads with a donkey and change their name to Jack, so when they walk down the street, people could say there goes a real Jackass!

 

[pantaiema]

Well if people start doing this, then they should switch heads with a donkey and change their name to Jack, so when they walk down the street, people could say there goes a real Jackass!

Well, even they wanted to it won't happen, as even the most skilled surgeon on Earth wouldn't be capable of doing that.

When it comes to one's presentation, appearance and/or gender redesignation, no one would want to spend money in an appearance resembling a donkey. This is because it's often connected with being less attractive and a lack of intelligence. When you walk along the village footpaths, individuals might place sacks on your back, mistaking you for a donkey.

I think individuals would rather invest their money in looking or watching like this in this video, rather than watching a show filled with people resembling donkeys. Nevertheless, if you browse other videos in the channel, it's often mentioned that "Peter" the host holds the most desirable job on the planet showing interest and appreciation of such show.

 

[Balifrog]

The explanation of all protected characteristics is here:

Protected characteristics | Equality and Human Rights Commission

Brief descriptive overview of the nine Protected Characteristics

www.equalityhumanrights.com

Gender reassignment: The process of transitioning from one sex to another.
Gender reassignment is a protected Characteristics recognised by many countries. To my knowledge, US, EU, UK, CA, AU, NZ, SA,

Absolute maddness...
In a world where people die from hunger, live in the streets, huge drug problems, wars ..governments waste time and money arguing and debating about this kind of debility....

 

[MamangDudul]

Absolute maddness...
In a world where people die from hunger, live in the streets, huge drug problems, wars ..governments waste time and money arguing and debating about this kind of debility....

Not to forget that all of this trying to normalize real dangerous practises. When can surely discuss if sex-change can help certain people with, what I call, a mental illness. A lot of experts say it doesn't help them, while others say it can help.
Personally I see a lot of the stuff that's happening in and around that whole LGBTQ (and whatever letters they add in the next years) circle as very problematic and straight mentally ill.
As far as dangerous practises go, well, some of us are already grown up so it's up to them to do what they want with their body. I still think it's wrong to " romanticize " that whole sex- or gender change thing and promote it as something totally cool and harmless and worthy of everyone totally supporting it.
Still, as a grown up it's, at least in some way, your own responsibility and maybe fault.
Where Iam out and start to condemn is when you wanna give children puberty-blockers so they won't get the "wrong puberty". Maybe they wanna turn into a unicorn (it's not even only about being a man or a woman anymore) later, who knows?
It's madness, like some here already said.

 

[Balifrog]

Not to forget that all of this trying to normalize real dangerous practises. When can surely discuss if sex-change can help certain people with, what I call, a mental illness. A lot of experts say it doesn't help them, while others say it can help.
Personally I see a lot of the stuff that's happening in and around that whole LGBTQ (and whatever letters they add in the next years) circle as very problematic and straight mentally ill.
As far as dangerous practises go, well, some of us are already grown up so it's up to them to do what they want with their body. I still think it's wrong to " romanticize " that whole sex- or gender change thing and promote it as something totally cool and harmless and worthy of everyone totally supporting it.
Still, as a grown up it's, at least in some way, your own responsibility and maybe fault.
Where Iam out and start to condemn is when you wanna give children puberty-blockers so they won't get the "wrong puberty". Maybe they wanna turn into a unicorn (it's not even only about being a man or a woman anymore) later, who knows?
It's madness, like some here already said.

Agreed.
Having lived in Thailand 10 years I know that most of the "ladyboys" are mentally very fragile. It is common knowledge among us the old "nightowls". We often told newbies to be very carefull speaking with them because it can run out of control very fast.
The pills and stuff they take sure does not help.

Concerning teenager blocking puberty it is madness. Let's see in 5 or 8 years how many start crying that they regret their decision !

 

[harryopal1]

". Maybe they wanna turn into a unicorn (it's not even only about being a man or a woman anymore) later, who knows?
It's madness, like some here already said.

Such a harsh judgement. Please respect my rights as I want to be transgendered and become a sulphur crested cockatoo.