DON'T PANIC.... well, maybe a little bit.

[Nimbus]

Do you have a source for that with Ivermectin? I saw one study from many years ago that dosed people with about 10x the recommended dose and saw no serious side effects. From what I have seen it has a safety profile similar to Aspirin.

My source for Ivermectin is an Indonesian professor of pharmacy, so I haven’t looked for the studies yet.

 

[Hawk256]

AZ vaccine was stopped in Europe due to blood clotting, but it was allowed to continue because the cases are very rare, that is 18 deaths out of 25 million. That is 0.000072 percent. Compare that to Covid that has 2-4% fatality rate. Using the 2% figure, Covid is 27 thousand times deadlier than the AZ vaccine.

HCQ and Ivermectin is relatively safe for their approved purposes, because the doses are low.

Even with low doses HCQ has considerable side effects, there are people on this forum who can barely tolerate it just as malaria prevention medicine. The dose prescribed for Covid is about 10 times that.

Ivermectin is approved in Indonesia for worm medication, taken once a year. The dose prescribed for Covid is exponentially higher.

I never implied that COVID was not deadly. My question was How many people died from HCQ or Ivermectin? You are a proponent for one treatment that we know can be deadly but are an opponent of a treatment that has possible side effects.

 

[R Cameron]

My source for Ivermectin is an Indonesian professor of pharmacy, so I haven’t looked for the studies yet.

A quick google search found several relevant results, this one isn't the one I was thinking of, but is an example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5133431/

 

[R Cameron]

I do find it a little ironic however that the same people that are so pro vaccine are the same ones that are against medicines like hydroxychloroquine or Ivermectin because we don't have long term studies from them.

The loudest voices and those that get the most attention are those that paint things as stark black and white, good vs evil, team A vs team B. But there are many, many people that can see some shades of gray; I would take any of the vaccines available (except I would research the Russian one a bit more if it were offered to me), and there's also a number of off-label drugs/vitamins/minerals I have taken as prevention or would take if infected. It doesn't have to be all of one or the other.

 

[Nimbus]

I never implied that COVID was not deadly. My question was How many people died from HCQ or Ivermectin? You are a proponent for one treatment that we know can be deadly but are an opponent of a treatment that has possible side effects.

I wish that you actually read my post that you quoted, instead you’re looking for a ‘gotcha’. HCQ and Ivermectin are generally safe when taken for their approved uses and dosage, meaning no / very few deaths.

IVM (Ivermectin) is safe at 200 mcg/kg of body weight once a year. The suggested dose for Covid is 600 mcg/kg daily for 5 days. That means you’re consuming a 15-year dose in 5 days. Recent studies show that it’s safe, but there is no long-term study for that dose of IVM. Where is your concern for the long term effect of IVM?

So far the only study showing effective use of IVM is done in vitro, meaning it’s done in the lab on a petri dish. Limited human trials so far indicate no difference between IVM and placebo. If the data we have show no difference, then we should be concerned about unforeseen long term side effects.

Here’s the human study:

Antiviral effect of high-dose ivermectin in adults with COVID-19: A proof-of-concept randomized trial

A concentration dependent antiviral activity of oral high-dose IVM was identified at a dosing regimen that was well tolerated. Large trials with clinical endpoints are necessary to determine the clinical utility of IVM in COVID-19.

www.thelancet.com

The important conclusion is: “The difference in viral load between baseline and day-5 was similar between groups and decreasing over time, without significant differences.”

 

[R Cameron]

Here’s the human study:

Antiviral effect of high-dose ivermectin in adults with COVID-19: A proof-of-concept randomized trial

A concentration dependent antiviral activity of oral high-dose IVM was identified at a dosing regimen that was well tolerated. Large trials with clinical endpoints are necessary to determine the clinical utility of IVM in COVID-19.

www.thelancet.com

The important conclusion is: “The difference in viral load between baseline and day-5 was similar between groups and decreasing over time, without significant differences.”

That sentence doesn't appear on that page.

What it does say (bolding mine):

Findings
45 participants were recruited (30 to IVM and 15 controls) between May 18 and September 9, 2020. There was no difference in viral load reduction between groups but a significant difference was found in patients with higher median plasma IVM levels (72% IQR 59–77) versus untreated controls (42% IQR 31–73) (p = 0·004). Mean ivermectin plasma concentration levels correlated with viral decay rate (r: 0·47, p = 0·02). Adverse events were similar between groups. No differences in clinical evolution at day-7 and day-30 between groups were observed.

Interpretation
A concentration dependent antiviral activity of oral high-dose IVM was identified at a dosing regimen that was well tolerated. Large trials with clinical endpoints are necessary to determine the clinical utility of IVM in COVID-19.

In other words, Ivermectin reduced viral load when it was at sufficient concentration in the blood. The question is why did some in the treatment arm have high plasma concentration and some not? I have read speculation that it is likely related to with or without meals, which isn't documented or controlled in this and similar studies with similar results. When Ivermectin is used for parasites it is recommended on an empty stomach so it stays primarily in the gastrointestinal system, but for possible Covid benefit it should be taken with fatty foods to aid absorbtion into the blood.

 

[Nimbus]

That sentence doesn't appear on that page.

What it does say (bolding mine):


In other words, Ivermectin reduced viral load when it was at sufficient concentration in the blood. The question is why did some in the treatment arm have high plasma concentration and some not? I have read speculation that it is likely related to with or without meals, which isn't documented or controlled in this and similar studies with similar results. When Ivermectin is used for parasites it is recommended on an empty stomach so it stays primarily in the gastrointestinal system, but for possible Covid benefit it should be taken with fatty foods to aid absorbtion into the blood.

That sentence is under the “Result” heading, about 1/3 of the way down scrolling the long document. I like to read the detail rather than relying on the executive summary.

Basically at the end of 5 days there’s no significant difference between the groups. At some point high concentration of IVM affected the reduction rate, but the overall reduction rate is the same.

 

[Balifrog]

And on it goes, blame the dirty,.unwashed, selfish unvacinated.....
They'll be responsible for the end of the world !

No end in this Covid stupidity.

Unvaccinated could be breeding ground for Covid variants, US officials fear

New coronavirus cases were up at least 10% in 46 states, with each infection increasing the chance of a dangerous virus mutation

www.theguardian.com

Unvaccinated could be breeding ground for Covid variants, US officials fear​

 

[Balifrog]

I think we’ll all agree on the fact that comorbidities is an important criteria in the cause of death by Covid.

Remember that most of the deaths were rather old people with comorbidities ?

Now, this raises the question of how we got in that situation of so many people having problems like obesity, diabetes, respiratory problems (read lung cancer / cigarettes) ?

Several months ago, on a Thai expat forum there was a thread “what medicine do you take ?”. I thought it as a bit bizarre but was really shocked when I saw the answers. It appeared that a majority of BM daily took pills for blood pressure issues, heart problems, diabetes, and so on ….

For me who, at 68, has never taken any medicine except some Panadol when catching a cold or when really hangover it was a shock.

So, back to the question “how did we get there” ?

Obesity is flagrant in the US, on a lesser scale in the UK, but also starts to appear in France even we have the best cuisine in the world.

Clearly lifestyle is the issue here.

• Obesity : too much junk food (KFC, Mc Do, Pizza, Subway shit sandwiches…), generally accompanied by sugary drinks ( Coca Cola etc..). Take away or delivery food is becoming more and more common, sadly usely of the lowest quality health wise.
• Respiratory / lung problems (lung cancer) : No need to look far, smoking is the main cause. But it is a taboo subject, as BIG money is involved for private companies as well as governments (taxes). In a country like Indonesia, where every male think that if he doesn’t smoke at 15y old he is not a real man, it is a ticking time bomb. Remember that the tobacco industry, being a bit curtailed in developed nations (no smoking in the office, restaurants, trains, etc…) is compensating their loss of clientele there by pushing hard in “developing” countries.
• Diabetes : Yes, many will answer me it is hereditary…. But still, the food problem is the main issue.
• Blood pressure, heart problems : I have no answer to that, except maybe excess stress, and people (like on this forum) taking things way to seriously ?

So, my thinking is : OK, we will probably overcome this Covid thing, but it opened our eyes on the fragility (health wise) of an important part of the population. So, we should seriously start to work on that. Less fragile people = less people susceptible to fall ill.

My background being technician on construction machinery, we always implemented:

• Fix the immediate problem (emergency repair)
• Analyze the cause of said problem.
• Do the necessary to eliminate that cause, so that the problem doesn’t repeat.

Hehe, I do love typing those long rants at 02.00 am with a whisky in my hand !


P.S. : Waiting (impatiently) for Professor @Nimbus answer about conspiracy theories ….

Cheers !

 

[dafluff]

I think we’ll all agree on the fact that comorbidities is an important criteria in the cause of death by Covid.

Remember that most of the deaths were rather old people with comorbidities ?

Now, this raises the question of how we got in that situation of so many people having problems like obesity, diabetes, respiratory problems (read lung cancer / cigarettes) ?

Several months ago, on a Thai expat forum there was a thread “what medicine do you take ?”. I thought it as a bit bizarre but was really shocked when I saw the answers. It appeared that a majority of BM daily took pills for blood pressure issues, heart problems, diabetes, and so on ….

For me who, at 68, has never taken any medicine except some Panadol when catching a cold or when really hangover it was a shock.

So, back to the question “how did we get there” ?

Obesity is flagrant in the US, on a lesser scale in the UK, but also starts to appear in France even we have the best cuisine in the world.

Clearly lifestyle is the issue here.

• Obesity : too much junk food (KFC, Mc Do, Pizza, Subway shit sandwiches…), generally accompanied by sugary drinks ( Coca Cola etc..). Take away or delivery food is becoming more and more common, sadly usely of the lowest quality health wise.
• Respiratory / lung problems (lung cancer) : No need to look far, smoking is the main cause. But it is a taboo subject, as BIG money is involved for private companies as well as governments (taxes). In a country like Indonesia, where every male think that if he doesn’t smoke at 15y old he is not a real man, it is a ticking time bomb. Remember that the tobacco industry, being a bit curtailed in developed nations (no smoking in the office, restaurants, trains, etc…) is compensating their loss of clientele there by pushing hard in “developing” countries.
• Diabetes : Yes, many will answer me it is hereditary…. But still, the food problem is the main issue.
• Blood pressure, heart problems : I have no answer to that, except maybe excess stress, and people (like on this forum) taking things way to seriously ?

So, my thinking is : OK, we will probably overcome this Covid thing, but it opened our eyes on the fragility (health wise) of an important part of the population. So, we should seriously start to work on that. Less fragile people = less people susceptible to fall ill.

My background being technician on construction machinery, we always implemented:

• Fix the immediate problem (emergency repair)
• Analyze the cause of said problem.
• Do the necessary to eliminate that cause, so that the problem doesn’t repeat.

Hehe, I do love typing those long rants at 02.00 am with a whisky in my hand !


P.S. : Waiting (impatiently) for Professor @Nimbus answer about conspiracy theories ….

Cheers !

Your long post would've been much better delivered without the gratuitous pejorative at the end.

 

[Balifrog]

Your long post would've been much better delivered without the gratuitous pejorative at the end.

Hahaha,

That was the "fun" part of it .....

Now, comment on the main topic of the post, not the irony part ?

 

[R Cameron]

And on it goes, blame the dirty,.unwashed, selfish unvacinated.....
They'll be responsible for the end of the world !

No end in this Covid stupidity.

Unvaccinated could be breeding ground for Covid variants, US officials fear

New coronavirus cases were up at least 10% in 46 states, with each infection increasing the chance of a dangerous virus mutation

www.theguardian.com

Unvaccinated could be breeding ground for Covid variants, US officials fear​

It seems to me that even those media outlets who have stuck to good journalism in their articles have completely abandoned it in their titles and headlines. My guess is that articles like that are written by traditionally trained journalists, and then turned over to a team with marketing degrees to be given a title/headline.

In other words, the headline is true but its intent is to generate clicks not communicate information.

Is there anything in the body of the article you think is wrong? It is true that every viral replication is an opportunity for mutation, and in the US the majority of replication is now happening in unvaccinated persons.

 

[Balifrog]

Is there anything in the body of the article you think is wrong? It is true that every viral replication is an opportunity for mutation, and in the US the majority of replication is now happening in unvaccinated persons.

The flu mutates every year, but never ever the papers made a headline of it.....

And it would be easy to say that in the last 10 years, said flu attacked the unvaccinated more than the vaccinated. But again, never a headline or a "scientific" study on it.....
Disclaimer : I never took the flu vaccine, and I am (miraculously) still alive !

 

[R Cameron]

That sentence is under the “Result” heading, about 1/3 of the way down scrolling the long document. I like to read the detail rather than relying on the executive summary.

Basically at the end of 5 days there’s no significant difference between the groups. At some point high concentration of IVM affected the reduction rate, but the overall reduction rate is the same.

Okay, when I clicked the link it only loaded the abstract and when I didn't see the line you quoted a Ctrl-F search of the page didn't find it either. My mistake.

But I'm glad you're looking at the whole study rather than just the abstract, I agree that is where the valuable information lies:

Results:
Viral load values under the limit of quantification of 10 copies/reaction at day-5 were achieved by 6 of 20 (30%) subjects in the IVM group and in 1 of 12 (8·3%) in the control group without statistical significance between groups. When mean plasma IVM concentration levels were analyzed in relation to reduction in viral load, a significant positive correlation was identified, with those patients achieving higher mean plasma concentrations of IVM reaching higher reductions in viral load in nasopharyngeal secretions (r: 0·44; p < 0·04). Mean IVM plasma concentration levels also showed a positive correlation with viral decay rate (r:0·47, p = 0·02).

30% of the IVM group had reduced viral load under the testing threshold, while only 8.3% of the control group. They state that's without statistical significance; I reluctantly submit to their statistical analysis because 30% vs 8% seems like a big difference to me (and of course we would all like to see a larger N).

However this part is clearly in support of IVM efficacy:

When mean plasma IVM concentration levels were analyzed in relation to reduction in viral load, a significant positive correlation was identified, with those patients achieving higher mean plasma concentrations of IVM reaching higher reductions in viral load.... Mean IVM plasma concentration levels also showed a positive correlation with viral decay rate

Furthermore in their Discussion section:

However, our results indicate a concentration-dependent antiviral activity of IVM in SARS-CoV-2 infected patients treated within 5 days of symptoms onset. This statistically significant difference was identified for the relationship between IVM plasma concentrations and the primary outcome; which confirms previous in vitro activity shown in cell cultures. Findings on IVM plasma concentrations are in agreement with human SARS-CoV-2 viral kinetic models identifying the need for high doses, but contradict those concerns stating that those drug concentrations would not be achievable at safe doses.
...
The antiviral effect was seen after IVM plasma concentration measurements allowed discrimination between patients achieving higher levels and identifying a direct relationship between drug concentration and viral elimination.
...
Diet is a key variable affecting oral bioavailability of IVM, with increased plasma concentrations achieved with fed state.
...
Although further information is needed, this pilot trial adds evidence on the safety of multiple-day high-dose regimens of IVM, without unexpected findings; in agreement with a trial in Kenya evaluating the mosquitocidal effect of IVM at 300 and 600 µg/kg in adults with malaria
...
The lack of a registry of the meals ingested around the intake of each treatment may add a source of variation to the observed IVM plasma profiles.
...
In summary, our findings support the hypothesis that IVM has a concentration dependent antiviral activity against SARS-CoV-2 and provides insights into the type of evaluations to be considered in the assessment of antiviral drugs for the control of COVID-19. Follow-up trials to confirm our findings and to identify the clinical utility of IVM in COVID-19 are warranted.

If I may paraphrase, "IVM reduces viral load in those who achieve a high blood concentration of IVM, unfortunately we did not document meals, but we suspect the high blood concentration is gained by taking IVM with a meal. Our study also reaffirmed other studies showing high safety of IVM at this dosage level. Additional studies should be done."

This is a very different picture than "no difference, move on."

 

[R Cameron]

The flu mutates every year, but never ever the papers made a headline of it.....

And it would be easy to say that in the last 10 years, said flu attacked the unvaccinated more than the vaccinated. But again, never a headline or a "scientific" study on it.....
Disclaimer : I never took the flu vaccine, and I am (miraculously) still alive !

Flu mutations do make headlines. Not as big as Covid headlines, because flu mutations also don't kill millions of people and overwhelm ICUs!

 

[Nimbus]

The flu mutates every year, but never ever the papers made a headline of it.....

And it would be easy to say that in the last 10 years, said flu attacked the unvaccinated more than the vaccinated. But again, never a headline or a "scientific" study on it.....
Disclaimer : I never took the flu vaccine, and I am (miraculously) still alive !

No scientific study on the flu?

You don’t know anybody who died from Covid despite living in the country with the highest number of cases, and I’m supposed to believe your assessment on scientific articles?

About 30,000 people die of the common flu in USA each year, the CDC tracks it year after year. It’s the reason they release a flu vaccine each year.

But hey, if it doesn’t happen to you, then it must not be real.

 

[Nimbus]

Okay, when I clicked the link it only loaded the abstract and when I didn't see the line you quoted a Ctrl-F search of the page didn't find it either. My mistake.

But I'm glad you're looking at the whole study rather than just the abstract, I agree that is where the valuable information lies:


30% of the IVM group had reduced viral load under the testing threshold, while only 8.3% of the control group. They state that's without statistical significance; I reluctantly submit to their statistical analysis because 30% vs 8% seems like a big difference to me (and of course we would all like to see a larger N).

However this part is clearly in support of IVM efficacy:


Furthermore in their Discussion section:


If I may paraphrase, "IVM reduces viral load in those who achieve a high blood concentration of IVM, unfortunately we did not document meals, but we suspect the high blood concentration is gained by taking IVM with a meal. Our study also reaffirmed other studies showing high safety of IVM at this dosage level. Additional studies should be done."

This is a very different picture than "no difference, move on."

Good work.

Despite the end result not showing a significant difference collectively, at least they identified certain circumstances where IVM can make a difference, calling for further research.

Still, this doesn’t make IVM a substitute for vaccines. Anti vaxxers are bent on pushing HCQ and IVM despite absence of compelling efficacy, yet they reject vaccines with up to 95% efficacy. Vaccines are criticized for lack of long-term result studies, yet they conveniently ignore that no long term studies exist for high doses of HCQ and IVM.

 

[harryopal1]

For those interested in the issue of public health and it's relevance to populations having a robust immune system, this article from today's Guardian may be of interest.

When one looks at the huge amount of TV advertising to eat rubbish foods and sugar saturated drinks it seems that within a decade Indonesia will have the immense problems of developed countries related to obesity and diabetes. In the US, big manufacturers spent $175 million on political donations during the 2020 election. We may recover from Covid and mutations but the tsunami of salt, chemical, preservatives and artificially coloured foods will cost this and most countries billions in health costs.

Revealed: the true extent of America’s food monopolies, and who pays the price

Investigation shows scale of big food corporations’ market dominance and political power

www.theguardian.com

 

[ChrisTex]

So a family member of one of the teachers at my school died this week. They said it was seizures until the head hurts so much then coma since 2 weeks ago. I was going to share it yesterday, but I didn't as a few things hadn't popped into my head yet. I don't know the full specifics like was there treatment, denied the right to a hospital, etc... With that being said, a few thoughts in regards to covid and the current hospital overload popped into my head.

1. Could this be counted as part of the covid statistic? Reason being is the person died during the height of covid and might have been able to get the proper treatment if covid wasn't present.

2. The overloaded hospitals due to covid means people who need medical treatment for other things aren't likely to get it. Personally I have a clogged ear and want to get it looked at, but I am 99.99% certain if I tried to go to get it looked at, I would be refused. Why? Searching on Google seems to indicate the place I need to go to are at hospitals.

3. If people know hospitals are crowded because of covid cases, how many likely are they to even attempt to seek treatment even if they need it(they might not know they need it)?

4. There is likely to be a massive hole in the medical industry if and when things finally settle down. You will have people retire and quit over everything they had to deal with, stress and mental health being the main factors.

5. We could do a 6 degrees study of our own and I am sure we all know at least 5 people who have been affected by covid. Maybe more.

6. This is why allowing dual citizenship is going to be important. Think of the talent Indonesia has lost because people rather stay where they currently are than return to Indonesia. Yes there are various reasons, but generally speaking, Indonesia will need all the help they can get.

7. Covid is going to be determine the 2024 Presidential election. Either Jokowi declares state of emergency where he stays as president, whoever runs will be asked, 'what did you do?', or a hardliner is going to rise up.

 

[HappyMan]

For those interested in the issue of public health and it's relevance to populations having a robust immune system, this article from today's Guardian may be of interest.

When one looks at the huge amount of TV advertising to eat rubbish foods and sugar saturated drinks it seems that within a decade Indonesia will have the immense problems of developed countries related to obesity and diabetes. In the US, big manufacturers spent $175 million on political donations during the 2020 election. We may recover from Covid and mutations but the tsunami of salt, chemical, preservatives and artificially coloured foods will cost this and most countries billions in health costs.

Revealed: the true extent of America’s food monopolies, and who pays the price

Investigation shows scale of big food corporations’ market dominance and political power

www.theguardian.com

Harry and Balifrog have the same green colored icon, so I wrote a response for Bali... Since deleted.

Anyhow, doing anything significant about this is a tough row to hoe. We have people complaining that the government wants them to vaccinate themselves against a disease that could kill them in the next three weeks. The sort of legislation that would put a dent in this is not going to make most of those people happy.