DON'T PANIC.... well, maybe a little bit.

Methblinkz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2019
Messages
104
Never said that it guarantees reliable information, in fact, I said that it is not perfect. Now imagine the reliability of sources that are not peer-reviewed, if the peer-reviewed ones are not perfect.

In life, where very few things can be known with absolute certainty, you have to assign a certain probability of something being true/possible, etc. In that process, your buddy's conspiracy website with 5 articles that he registered last year, ranks much much lower than The Lancet, flaws included. If you were truly interested in finding out the truth, that is how you would weigh the likelihood of certain information being true.

If however, all the data you present are from dubious sources, then I'm going to posit that finding out the truth is actually not your goal.
My god, you are really full of yourself. At least Indonesia doesn't need to be afraid if all of their head scientists or maybe the president dies, you are here to do the job.

Stop twisting people's words. That page isn't my buddy AND I OPENLY ADMITTED that Iam probably not intelligent enough for that subject. You seem to be, since you seem to know it all. I even gave the email address of the author, who I contacted personally and made it open to everyone to contact him or not. Plus, that page only has like 5 English articles because the main page is in German and they don't translate every article.
And only because you, mr. Head scientists, can supposedly beat me, a Baker who admits when he is wrong or doesn't know it, in some internet forum it doesnt mean shit.
That's all there is to say.

Funny how you try to put me in a box witg some conspiracy stuff, but I don't give a....
Who are you anyway?

And yeah, dubious websites and so on. The only important things are the content and the sources the content is based on. Whatever, Iam outta here and you can call me what you want. To see your daily panic tweets without any critical reflection I can just open the TV.

Thanks, call me loser or whatever. Iam sure you have the fitting answer anyway. Salute Mr. Head Scientist.
 

dafluff

Moderator
Moderator
Cager
Joined
Jul 13, 2016
Messages
4,269
My god, you are really full of yourself. At least Indonesia doesn't need to be afraid if all of their head scientists or maybe the president dies, you are here to do the job.

Stop twisting people's words. That page isn't my buddy AND I OPENLY ADMITTED that Iam probably not intelligent enough for that subject. You seem to be, since you seem to know it all. I even gave the email address of the author, who I contacted personally and made it open to everyone to contact him or not. Plus, that page only has like 5 English articles because the main page is in German and they don't translate every article.
And only because you, mr. Head scientists, can supposedly beat me, a Baker who admits when he is wrong or doesn't know it, in some internet forum it doesnt mean shit.
That's all there is to say.

Funny how you try to put me in a box witg some conspiracy stuff, but I don't give a....
Who are you anyway?

And yeah, dubious websites and so on. The only important things are the content and the sources the content is based on. Whatever, Iam outta here and you can call me what you want. To see your daily panic tweets without any critical reflection I can just open the TV.

Thanks, call me loser or whatever. Iam sure you have the fitting answer anyway. Salute Mr. Head Scientist.

I really (REALLY) didn't feel like responding to this guy's posts, long before this one. But in the interest of not letting this thread (and forum) become a runaway platform for Covid conspiracy theories and science bashing, I did.

@Methblinkz, I don't recall "calling" you anything, I just explained why I trust the Lancet more than whatever source you presented. Precisely because we are not scientists, we are not good at judging the content of a source, and must instead rely to some extent on the fidelity of the source instead.

I also have a right to question your motives, as it seems you ignore all the data/research that was presented to you while you keep insisting we waste our time reading the claptrap you posted.

Anyway, if you are really out of here, then there is no reason for me to write more.

Sincerely,

Mr. Head Scientist
 

harryopal

Well-Known Member
Charter Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2016
Messages
1,234
What one should remember before blindly (and religiously) take all those "trials" and "studies for guaranteed, foolproof and honest :

1) All trials (phase 1, 2, 3) for a new medicine or vaccine are done by the manufacturer himself. He then submits the results to the authorities of the country where he wants it approved, say FDA in the US, the FDA then on reading those test results judges them satisfactory or not, and issues the agreement (or not) for said product.

This of course raises a few questions...
# Trials are done by the manufacturer, not by a government entity or by a neutral 3rd party (if such thing "neutral" exists..). So we have the obvious risk that Big Pharma is presenting / orientating the reports and data in the most favorable way possible.

- In case of the Covid vaccine the case was even worse as governments have given important grants to Big Pharma to develop those vaccines, but the manufacturers are legally shielded from any liability for side effects, sickness, deaths resulting from the vaccine. This is not new, it's an old law in the US, for other countries (see Israel paper) I think the Covid vaccine deal was done with specific clauses.



2) Scientific magazines (Lancet etc..) are of course heavily sponsored through advertising by Big Pharma, which from the start creates a conflict of interest.
I tended to take those magazine for VERY serious and objective, but the Lancet's disaster (2020) concerning the report of the high mortal risk of hydro chloroquine, which later proved to be build on fantasy data, and that they later retracted, has made me much more prudent. Some post above have shown 2 other examples.

3) Conflict of interest :
First thing to do is to "clean up" all those scientific committees assisting government, the W.H.O and so on, from ANY person that has the slightest conflict of interest with Big Pharma.
Conflict of interest doesn't only mean taking envelopes, or being offered nice "seminaries" in the Caribbean, but also doing, or having done works, trials, tests sponsored by them. Or even simply having had his medical studies paid by Big Pharma.
It sounds something basic, logic, evident but if they applied that rule they would probably have to kick out more then 50% of the members of said committees.

At least Covid has brought all those problems to the surface and in the open.
Not that I am very optimistic on any change coming, the money involved is simply too huge.

For the fun let me throw in 2 more points.

- How do pharmaceutical companies price their products ? Google that phrase..
It's not like any other business (cost of goods + xx%), but simply price it as high as possible.



- I also recommend you to have a look at the the stock price charts of the main Big Pharma since Jan 2020 !

It's a wonderful world we live in .......
Another curious feature of the US sponsored and paid for development of vaccines by big pharmaceutical companies is that the profits belong to the companies not the US people who paid for the research.
 

Hawk256

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 9, 2020
Messages
172
Before we all get too tired patting ourselves on the back, remember that science is only as good as the time it was noted. Two hundred years ago the medical community and science agreed that blood letting was a good idea. One hundred years ago you were prescribed cocaine or heroin for a minor ailment. After that doctors would recommend smoking to patients with asthma. The list goes on an on. We have studied viruses for a long time but this is the first time we have made a vaccine this quickly or using these methods. Other than the Chinese vaccine, the methods and approaches have never been tried before. We might think we know what an MRNA vaccine will do to the body long term but in actuality, we have no idea. It's possible that 50 years from now it could the greatest discovery ever or it could be one of our biggest blunders ever. I'm not trying to influence anyone one way or another but just know and admit that there are limitations to what we think we know and this has been proven time and time again. One side is not superior to the other and it would be rather arrogant to claim that you are right this early in the game no matter which side you are on.
 

HappyMan

Well-Known Member
Charter Member
Cager
Joined
Jul 17, 2016
Messages
891
Before we all get too tired patting ourselves on the back, remember that science is only as good as the time it was noted. Two hundred years ago the medical community and science agreed that blood letting was a good idea. One hundred years ago you were prescribed cocaine or heroin for a minor ailment. After that doctors would recommend smoking to patients with asthma. The list goes on an on. We have studied viruses for a long time but this is the first time we have made a vaccine this quickly or using these methods. Other than the Chinese vaccine, the methods and approaches have never been tried before. We might think we know what an MRNA vaccine will do to the body long term but in actuality, we have no idea. It's possible that 50 years from now it could the greatest discovery ever or it could be one of our biggest blunders ever. I'm not trying to influence anyone one way or another but just know and admit that there are limitations to what we think we know and this has been proven time and time again. One side is not superior to the other and it would be rather arrogant to claim that you are right this early in the game no matter which side you are on.
Well... We aren't arguing about what the result of a coin toss will be. One side is trying to follow the best available research using the best available methods. The other side isn't. There just isn't an equivalence.

If it turns out that ten years after taking the vaccines we all turn into turnips, that will be a surprise. If it turns out that ten years after taking the vaccines... nothing happens, that will not be a surprise. Believing you can predict the results of the vaccine better than all the leading experts in the field requires you to either flat out think you are smarter than they are or believe you are just so darned lucky that your uneducated guesses beat the expert. Which side of this argument did you think the arrogance was on?
 

fastpitch17

Well-Known Member
Charter Member
Cager
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
3,201
Sure are a lot of nut cases who think there is someone around every corner waiting to pounce on them because some ideot decided to make something up and post it because they know the nut cases will suck it right in.
 

Hawk256

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 9, 2020
Messages
172
Well... We aren't arguing about what the result of a coin toss will be. One side is trying to follow the best available research using the best available methods. The other side isn't. There just isn't an equivalence.

If it turns out that ten years after taking the vaccines we all turn into turnips, that will be a surprise. If it turns out that ten years after taking the vaccines... nothing happens, that will not be a surprise. Believing you can predict the results of the vaccine better than all the leading experts in the field requires you to either flat out think you are smarter than they are or believe you are just so darned lucky that your uneducated guesses beat the expert. Which side of this argument did you think the arrogance was on?
It's almost like you didn't even read the post but sure I'm sure you are absolutely 100% correct. Tuning into tunips, that's the best you have? Never heard of thalidomide, huh?
 

Balifrog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
Messages
661
Relax people, good news on the horizon....

Of course there will be new strains, this thing is here to stay. Same as the flu, and MANY other diseases...
Only dreamers could think that if we vaccinate the whole world, it will simply disapear.
It won't
So stop stressing and get on with your life !
 

Balifrog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
Messages
661
Two hundred years ago....
Problem is that we doing barely better than with the Spanish flu 100 years ago, although we have hyper modern technologie, highly smart scientifics, researchers etc....
And that it is peace time.....
 

HappyMan

Well-Known Member
Charter Member
Cager
Joined
Jul 17, 2016
Messages
891
It's almost like you didn't even read the post but sure I'm sure you are absolutely 100% correct. Tuning into tunips, that's the best you have? Never heard of thalidomide, huh?
Seriously, Hawk, it is not arrogance to trust the professionals. If I have 20 contactors over to price a leaking roof job and they all come in at around 300 man hours, but my mate (who like me knows nothing about building) insists it is a 50 hour job, I'm not arrogant for telling him he is wrong. If he insists I'm being a sheep for believing the professionals and proceeds to tell me about how he met a guy on the internet who used to work at a contractor supply and says it is a 50 hour job... What am I supposed to do, not have the work done while I wait for confirmation of the opinions of random internet guy? So I hire a contractor to do the job, and they seem to do a good job in appx. 300 hours. My mate proceeds to spend the next six months telling me what a fool I am for it... Really, I'm just supposed to keep saying, "Hmm, maybe you have a point", every time he opens his mouth about it?

I have heard of thalidomide. Freakonomics did an episode on it years ago (some other podcast, too, but it slips the mind). The thalidomide tragedy resulted in changes to medical testing methods around the world.

The thing is that anti-vaxers aren't running around saying, " I'm just scared, ya know? I don't have any scientifically sound reasons to be scared of this, but bad things have happened in the past." They are posting bogus articles and misleading questions and pretending to be just as reasonable as everyone else.
 
Last edited:

dafluff

Moderator
Moderator
Cager
Joined
Jul 13, 2016
Messages
4,269
Seriously, Hawk, it is not arrogance to trust the professionals. If I have 20 contactors over to price a leaking roof job and they all come in at around 300 man hours, but my mate (who like me knows nothing about building) insists it is a 50 hour job, I'm not arrogant for telling him he is wrong. If he insists I'm being a sheep for believing the professionals and proceeds to tell me about how he met a guy on the internet who used to work at a contractor supply and says it is a 50 hour job... What am I supposed to do, not have the work done while I wait for confirmation of the opinions of random internet guy? So I hire a contractor to do the job, and they seem to do a good job in appx. 300 hours. My mate proceeds to spend the next six months telling me what a fool I am for it... Really, I'm just supposed to keep saying, "Hmm, maybe you have a point", every time he opens his mouth about it?

I have heard of thalidomide. Freakonomics did an episode on it years ago (some other podcast, too, but it slips the mind). The thalidomide tragedy resulted in changes to medical testing methods around the world.

The thing is that anti-vaxers aren't running around saying, " I'm just scared, ya know? I don't have any scientifically sound reasons to be scared of this, but bad things have happened in the past." They are posting bogus articles and pretending to be just as reasonable as everyone else.

One of the flaws of this forum is that I can only like a post once. I would've probably gone with 25 likes otherwise.
 

Dave70

Well-Known Member
Cager
Joined
Dec 4, 2018
Messages
488
I agree that the chance of survival and recovery is lower here than in wealthier countries, but the chance of survival and recovery here is MUCH lower for unvaccinated people than for vaccinated ones. Indonesia may not have an ICU bed for you if you get sick, but if you are vaccinated (even with the Sinovac vaccine), you are far less likely to need an ICU bed than if you are unvaccinated.

I agree with everything you said, but I’m not talking about the unvaccinated.
 

harryopal

Well-Known Member
Charter Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2016
Messages
1,234
Seriously, Hawk, it is not arrogance to trust the professionals. If I have 20 contactors over to price a leaking roof job and they all come in at around 300 man hours, but my mate (who like me knows nothing about building) insists it is a 50 hour job, I'm not arrogant for telling him he is wrong. If he insists I'm being a sheep for believing the professionals and proceeds to tell me about how he met a guy on the internet who used to work at a contractor supply and says it is a 50 hour job... What am I supposed to do, not have the work done while I wait for confirmation of the opinions of random internet guy? So I hire a contractor to do the job, and they seem to do a good job in appx. 300 hours. My mate proceeds to spend the next six months telling me what a fool I am for it... Really, I'm just supposed to keep saying, "Hmm, maybe you have a point", every time he opens his mouth about it?
Not necessarily a great analogy. More like the professional contractors have come up with a completely new, innovative method of stopping leaks. The only problem is it really hasn't been tested in the old established manner and has not been used long enough to make proper comparisons of effectiveness with other methods. With the roof leaking all over the place we're understandably anxious to go with the new innovation as the old methods won't do the job. All things considered this seems the best way to go but I don't think it is irrational to be left with some lingering anxieties.
 

Dave70

Well-Known Member
Cager
Joined
Dec 4, 2018
Messages
488
You managed to mix two topics (effects of vaccine and treatment/care of the infected) into one and make things rather confusing. If your objective was just to obfuscate the matter, good job.

This is the sort of thing that makes people wonder whether conspiracy theorists and "alt facts" people are: trolls, puppet masters preying on the "reasoning challenged", or themselves incapable of sound reasoning.

You don’t understand what I’m trying to say, either my composition is so bad or your mind is hopelessly malicious.
 

HappyMan

Well-Known Member
Charter Member
Cager
Joined
Jul 17, 2016
Messages
891
Not necessarily a great analogy. More like the professional contractors have come up with a completely new, innovative method of stopping leaks. The only problem is it really hasn't been tested in the old established manner and has not been used long enough to make proper comparisons of effectiveness with other methods. With the roof leaking all over the place we're understandably anxious to go with the new innovation as the old methods won't do the job. All things considered this seems the best way to go but I don't think it is irrational to be left with some lingering anxieties.
Fair enough, man. I haven't had a chance at a vaccine yet. I know I'll be a bit scared when I get it. I'm one of those people who always thinks the plane might crash during takeoffs and landings. I just don't tell the other passengers on the plane about it, and if I did I wouldn't be trying to convince them that my opinion is worth more than the pilot's. You can't let fear beat reason.

Fear is the mind-killer. 🐛
 

HappyMan

Well-Known Member
Charter Member
Cager
Joined
Jul 17, 2016
Messages
891
You don’t understand what I’m trying to say, either my composition is so bad or your mind is hopelessly malicious.
You felt the need to clarify yourself to nd_eric like, three posts ago, so...

Seems like the best interpretation of your post, given your general posting tendencies is, "should we really trust what they say about how effective the vaccines are?" No new data or insights, no particular arguments to make, just planting doubts in a way that is needlessly confusing. I don't know if you do it maliciously or not.
 
Last edited:

Hawk256

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 9, 2020
Messages
172
It appears that my point seems to be lost to some because they are so quick to want to be right. I picked a couple of examples out of hundreds that exist. The main points are that we can only work with the information we have and mistakes happen the we don't realize until later. Nothing or no one will ever be perfect. We work with the information we have, sometimes we find out that we were wrong. Why is it so hard to just admit that MRNA vaccines are something new and unknown. If we are all knowing why didn't we foresee the problems with blood clotting, heart inflammation or neurological disorders? Sure, so far it has affected a small number of people compared to how many have been vaccinated (explain that to those peoples families) but more importantly, What have we missed? What are the long term effects? What are possible future problems? No one can answer these questions, not even the experts you like to refer to. I'm not saying the MRNA vaccines are dangerous, only that we don't know. If you can't agree with that then there isn't much more I can say.
 

R Cameron

Well-Known Member
Charter Member
Cager
Joined
Jul 19, 2016
Messages
956
Another curious feature of the US sponsored and paid for development of vaccines by big pharmaceutical companies is that the profits belong to the companies not the US people who paid for the research.
Did the US pay for the vaccine development? They prepaid for hundreds of millions of doses, which were then given free of charge to citizens, residents, and other countries.
 

Follow Us

Latest Expat Indo Articles

Latest Tweets by Expat Indo

Latest Activity

New posts Latest threads

Online Now

Newest Members

Forum Statistics

Threads
5,012
Messages
78,248
Members
2,268
Latest member
Lyndal
Top Bottom