4/11, 25/11 and 2/12 anti-Ahok demonstrations

[Vanuatu]

I view Ahok being named a suspect a ploy do appease the hardliners and stop the 25 November protest. It was quoted in the paper that the status of suspect does not affect his status as a candidate and that the trial process could be 2 - 3 years. It is sad that the government feels the need to bow down to the hardliners in this way, but I think it is all planned and they will try to "sweep the whole thing under the rug" as time goes by.

While this may be a quick fix, it makes Indonesia look even less palatable as a place to invest or live, as the rule of law can be so easily manipulated. They keep shooting themselves in the foot, as no one wants to be labeled as a "bad Muslim".

We can only hope that it is exposed and proven beyond any doubt that political parties and religious groups/Mafia thugs were directly involved in paying for ans supporting the protest and that there is a political backlash and legal repercussions against them, but alas most likely wishful thinking.

 

[dafluff]

The Ahok debacle caught attention of the world news:

http://time.com/4572734/indonesia-basuki-blasphemy-islam-intolerance-jakarta-governor/?xid=tcoshare


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/16/w...er=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/...-indonesia-blasphemy-row-161116041019990.html


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37996350


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-...t-in-blasphemy-case-indonesian-police/8030406


http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/15/a...ahok-indonesia1101AMStoryLink&linkId=31214065


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...e-name-jakarta-governor-as-blasphemy-suspect/


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-indonesia-politics-idUSKBN13B09F?il=0


https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...024438-abab-11e6-8f19-21a1c65d2043_story.html


http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news...ect-for-alleged-blasphemy-police/3292644.html


http://www.news.com.au/world/breaki...n/news-story/4bb35414a4a25007ede84700432de75d


http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/asean/1136737/jakarta-governor-named-suspect-in-blasphemy-case


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-face-blasphemy-trial-over-islam-insult-claim


http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se...ct-for-alleged-blasphemy-by-indonesian-police


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/1...me-jakarta-governor-as-blasphemy-suspect.html


http://www.sunherald.com/news/nation-world/world/article115067843.html


http://googleweblight.com/?lite_url...303622&sig=AF9NedlgbBPyHPEev4SbXusDRE8H4RuM5g

 

[William King]

I view Ahok being named a suspect a ploy do appease the hardliners and stop the 25 November protest. It was quoted in the paper that the status of suspect does not affect his status as a candidate and that the trial process could be 2 - 3 years. It is sad that the government feels the need to bow down to the hardliners in this way, but I think it is all planned and they will try to "sweep the whole thing under the rug" as time goes by.

While this may be a quick fix,

that problem is, once it's in the system, these things have a habit of taking on a life of their own.

An example is Neil and Ferdi from JIS visiting the police station for questioning a few years ago, to clear up the clearly absurd accusations that they were involved in child abuse.... they were never allowed to leave.

 

[Vanuatu]

that problem is, once it's in the system, these things have a habit of taking on a life of their own.

An example is Neil and Ferdi from JIS visiting the police station for questioning a few years ago, to clear up the clearly absurd accusations that they were involved in child abuse.... they were never allowed to leave.

I agree, but I think this situation is a little different as Ahok has some political weight behind him. I suspect the parties, Ahok included, came to an agreement to let him go to suspect status to quell the protest and then drag this beyond the election date and hope it has lost all steam by then.

 

[Euc-]

The Ahok debacle caught attention of the world news:

And those are just the English language ones..

 

[jstar]

Yes, there are (obviously) quite some articles in the Dutch press as well, with many people there as interested parties. Not only on the 4 November demonstration (as most newspapers have), but also the continuation and law suit after the investigation.

I strikes me that only one news website really mentioned the political powers behind all this. The rest keeps it completely religious or only slightly touches the political dynamics.

 

[Nimbus]

I still have a couple of relatives in government, and part of the issue is his notoriety among DKI civil servants. Ahok has a habit of publicly humiliating people, to the point where some choose to retire early while others decline to pursue promotion to avoid encountering him. People don't take kindly to public shaming, so it is a very rare practice even in America. Nobody denies that he performs, but people feel that he's not giving credit where its due, while being overly harsh and vocal with punishments.

Religion is a sensitive enough issue in Indonesia. When a borderline blasphemous statement is combined with an attitude perceived as arrogance, we have a problem. Never forget that just beneath the surface of normalcy in Jakarta there's a lot of stressed and angry people looking for a chance to lash out.

 

[El_Goretto]

I still have a couple of relatives in government, and part of the issue is his notoriety among DKI civil servants. Ahok has a habit of publicly humiliating people, to the point where some choose to retire early while others decline to pursue promotion to avoid encountering him. People don't take kindly to public shaming, so it is a very rare practice even in America. Nobody denies that he performs, but people feel that he's not giving credit where its due, while being overly harsh and vocal with punishments.

Religion is a sensitive enough issue in Indonesia. When a borderline blasphemous statement is combined with an attitude perceived as arrogance, we have a problem. Never forget that just beneath the surface of normalcy in Jakarta there's a lot of stressed and angry people looking for a chance to lash out.

Does he lash out at anyone that makes a honest mistake or at only anyone who's an obvious corrupt self serving asshole? I mean the whole "instead of taking responsibility for my actions, I will play the offended card as a red herring" attitude is quite common among those types.

 

[jstar]

Nimbus brings up a good point. Whereas his managment style could be construed as direct and results oriented by westerners, it can also locally be interpreted as blunt and rude. Now of course as a manager you should not leave too many dead bodies along the road. Must a bit like like walking on eggs though...

We have a saying: Zachte heelmeesters maken stinkende wonden. (Cautious and prudent doctors make stinking wounds, similar to Spare the rod and spoil the child.)

 

[Anglian]

A very good point, I learned as a manager here to use the softly softly approach and not public shame or embarrass anyone who had erred, worked well, even to the point of being asked by the staff not to retire, plus the embarrassment of when I was in hospital all the staff came to see me, two lots of 30 squeezing into the ward room.

 

[Nimbus]

Does he lash out at anyone that makes a honest mistake or at only anyone who's an obvious corrupt self serving asshole? I mean the whole "instead of taking responsibility for my actions, I will play the offended card as a red herring" attitude is quite common among those types.

They say he tends to be indiscriminate.

I know my relatives, and I'm under the distinct impression that they are straight. They are not rich, so that should be a good indicator. While I can't say for sure whether Ahok's reputation is deserved, it is there and civil servants believe it.

I'm not saying he deserves this treatment, as I personally think he is entitled to his opinion. However, not having moral support from your people is clearly disadvantageous in these situations. If he establishes himself as "tough but fair and considerate", then many of his employees would have stood up more for him, influencing others in their neighborhoods.

 

[Nimbus]

Nimbus brings up a good point. Whereas his managment style could be construed as direct and results oriented by westerners, it can also locally be interpreted as blunt and rude. Now of course as a manager you should not leave too many dead bodies along the road. Must a bit like like walking on eggs though...

We have a saying: Zachte heelmeesters maken stinkende wonden. (Cautious and prudent doctors make stinking wounds, similar to Spare the rod and spoil the child.)

A very good point, I learned as a manager here to use the softly softly approach and not public shame or embarrass anyone who had erred, worked well, even to the point of being asked by the staff not to retire, plus the embarrassment of when I was in hospital all the staff came to see me, two lots of 30 squeezing into the ward room.

It is possible to be tough and considerate at the same time, they are not mutually exclusive.

Rumor has it that the previous governor Sutiyoso, himself a military general accustomed to reaming people, told Ahok that public shaming is not productive. Sutiyoso would tear you a new asshole for a mistake, but in private. Ahok doesn't seem to take this suggestion.

 

[rabbit_39]

I've learned that the soft approach only get things done while you're micromanaging people. When you want to bring about a change in mindset or thought processes, at some point you will come to the public anger, even when you're faking it (I did, not sure about ahok)

 

[PhilippeD]

If you deal with someone who make an error or bad decision it must be deal in private.

But that's not what Ahok had to deal with.
He had to deal with a general culture shared among (almost) employee that he was right to shady deal for their own interest.
Dealing with that in private will never have an effect on the root of the problem as it's a social problem.

It's unthinkable to believe something will change with smooth face saving not apparent retribution.

It's sure civil servant are not happy, they just get cut of their personal "bonus", what do you expect?

If you deal in private about a rampant problem accepted by the social mass (of you employee) you will never affect the core root of the problem and the problem will continue to happen again and again.
It must a have a serious disruption for allow a change to happen in the core cultural value of an organization. Public shaming of the problem is one of them.

 

[Nimbus]

I've learned that the soft approach only get things done while you're micromanaging people. When you want to bring about a change in mindset or thought processes, at some point you will come to the public anger, even when you're faking it (I did, not sure about ahok)

There's definitely value in judicious use of public outrage. My previous boss used to do it, but very sparingly, like maybe once or twice a year at the most.

 

[Nimbus]

Bear in mind that the guy Ahok inherited the position from (Jokowi) is well known as a soft-spoken man even by Indonesian standard, yet he is not considered less effective.

 

[rabbit_39]

Bear in mind that the guy Ahok inherited the position from (Jokowi) is well known as a soft-spoken man even by Indonesian standard, yet he is not considered less effective.

I think I see and feel the difference in mindset the last 12-18 months a lot more. More people are thinking about what's not acceptable instead of "oh that's Indonesia" these days. In my own experiences, with many of the staff members I had if you don't show your strength, and almost forcibly guide them to change how they think, they won't get it. Of course not all need that. And those who do, many of them need multiple "reminders". As a matter of fact if I was in Ahok's shoes, I would not have cared about being re-elected and would have done more and be a lot more rude (In occasions where I think it would make a difference). Often it's not the people we're angry at that we want to affect the change to. But rather the people around them/us. Hence the need for the public shaming.

Again, not saying all of Indonesian people are like this. But the majority (>51%) of the people I've had the pleasure to encounter, fall into the above category.

 

[Nimbus]

I think I see and feel the difference in mindset the last 12-18 months a lot more. More people are thinking about what's not acceptable instead of "oh that's Indonesia" these days. In my own experiences, with many of the staff members I had if you don't show your strength, and almost forcibly guide them to change how they think, they won't get it. Of course not all need that. And those who do, many of them need multiple "reminders". As a matter of fact if I was in Ahok's shoes, I would not have cared about being re-elected and would have done more and be a lot more rude (In occasions where I think it would make a difference). Often it's not the people we're angry at that we want to affect the change to. But rather the people around them/us. Hence the need for the public shaming.

Again, not saying all of Indonesian people are like this. But the majority (>51%) of the people I've had the pleasure to encounter, fall into the above category.

I get what you're saying, but strength and resolve aren't necessarily the same with public display of anger. Another person who is considered very effective is Sri Mulyani, but she doesn't have a reputation as an arrogant and inconsiderate boss.

Regardless of his leadership style he doesn't deserve this crap, but his personality doesn't help his case in the court of public opinion, which in Indonesia sometimes influence the court of law.

 

[PhilippeD]

Bear in mind that the guy Ahok inherited the position from (Jokowi) is well known as a soft-spoken man even by Indonesian standard, yet he is not considered less effective.

I don't consider Jokowi quite effective.
While he was in travel for selling Indonesia to businessman of other nation the Depnaker were implementing ultra-restrictive regulation which was stabbing in the back all effort of Jokowi

When it had the "war" in between the police force and the army, What he do? Nothing, just looking at them killing each other.

Now with Ahok, he is not even able to protect him and he end up suspect over clearly falsify proof.
The Iman who was shouting he would pay a huge amount (1 milliard rp?) to the person who will kill Ahok (as same as the police officer aside and supporting him) are not even prosecuted. Not even worried to eventually be.

Defamation through internet is one of the most rough law in Indonesia. can send someone for amny year in year over futile stuff.
Where are the charge? Where are the prosecution? Why nobody fight back?

I understand playing humble is part of the game, too much agressive would play against them.
But playing as soft as they are playing now will eventually kill them.

 

[Nimbus]

I don't consider Jokowi quite effective.
While he was in travel for selling Indonesia to businessman of other nation the Depnaker were implementing ultra-restrictive regulation which was stabbing in the back all effort of Jokowi

When it had the "war" in between the police force and the army, What he do? Nothing, just looking at them killing each other.

Now with Ahok, he is not even able to protect him and he end up suspect over clearly falsify proof.
The Iman who was shouting he would pay a huge amount (1 milliard rp?) to the person who will kill Ahok (as same as the police officer aside and supporting him) are not even prosecuted. Not even worried to eventually be.

Defamation through internet is one of the most rough law in Indonesia. can send someone for amny year in year over futile stuff.
Where are the charge? Where are the prosecution? Why nobody fight back?

I understand playing humble is part of the game, too much agressive would play against them.
But playing as soft as they are playing now will eventually kill them.

He might not be so hot as president, but he was considered successful as mayor and governor.

As for the guy calling for murder, I agree that he should be brought to court for it. I almost miss Suharto, as the smiling general would have sent the provocateur to jail.