A Community Rejected the Build of a US$100 Billion Data Center

[Hawk256]

Yes and people used to work in factories with hazardous dust and no ventilation. Home burning coal for warmth with serious smog and health problems in cities were part of the norm. Factories belched foul smoke and workers were employed without hearing protection alongside deafening machines. But times have changed. There are new environmental laws. Industries emitting pollution are penalized and there are health and safety laws that recognize that people ought be able to live in comfort without being exposed to hazardous materials or excessive noise. People living in developed countries have different expecations compared with what was tolerated last century.

I'm just wondering how modern computers and air conditioning systems are belching toxins into the sky and creating a hum that is hurting people. And I'm not talking a century ago. A lot of these type of factories are still running to this day. Have a friend that working in an extrusion plant. They have huge rollers that stretch plastic into fiber. The rolls vibrate and you can feel them in the parking lot. Another friend works in a carpet mill and you can feel the machinery running in the parking lot as well.

 

[Balifrog]

There are new environmental laws.

Way too much of them, and some plainly ridiculous.

Wind turbines generate permanent noice, without speaking about the destruction of the visual aspect of the environment. Still most governments continue to built them.

 

[Bob]

I'm wondering if in the past large auto factories were quiet? What about other large factories that required very large machines that ran 24/7. Something tells me they weren't silent. It was common in the US for the houses to built in very close vicinity to the factories so workers would walk to work. Same with people close to subways or train tracks and stations. How have they survived all these years with the constant noises? A data center seems like it would have a fraction of the noise of the aforementioned.

I don't think there were thousands of auto factories running round the clock though, and noise from them and other factories, mines, and other industries wasn't the constant low buzz like from cooling fans. It seems like abandoned underground mines would be good place for data centers.

 

[Hawk256]

I don't think there were thousands of auto factories running round the clock though, and noise from them and other factories, mines, and other industries wasn't the constant low buzz like from cooling fans. It seems like abandoned underground mines would be good place for data centers.

Practically every large office building in the world has a large number of computers running and large HVAC systems (which require cooling fans) running 24/7 with no complaints. There are only 1,189 hyper scale large data factories in the entire world. There are 7.5 million large factories that potentially make much more noise and pollution but not a peep about them?

 

[harryopal1]

Practically every large office building in the world has a large number of computers running and large HVAC systems (which require cooling fans) running 24/7 with no complaints. There are only 1,189 hyper scale large data factories in the entire world. There are 7.5 million large factories that potentially make much more noise and pollution but not a peep about them?

"... not a peep about them..." doesn't sound right. Attached is a thread to the US National Institute for Safety and Health with data that shows there have been quite a few "peeps" about the impact on workers' health with industrial noise.

Overall Statistics – All U.S. Industries

View hearing loss statistics among workers in all U.S. industries.

www.cdc.gov

It seems your argument is that there is noise everywhere so the concerns about large data factories and never ending intrusive humming should be dismissed.

 

[pantaiema]

When it comes to governments deciding between the really big companies and concerns of local residents it is usually the big companies that win and there is the fall back argument;..... it's in the national interest.

I agree to some extent; we have seen this case exists and it is not uncommon in countries where corruption is the norm and democracy is not respected as a foundation of a fair society. But if there is strong public pressure and a broad consensus among experts, leading scientists, and other professionals, governments will often listen or risk being voted out of office or removed from power.

In other areas for example, there have been ongoing debates over free-market capitalism versus socialism, balancing economic growth from fossil fuels against environmental protection, and banning human genome editing for the purpose of creating a designer baby. In many cases, public opinion combined with expert consensus has significantly influenced government policy.

There is also a consensus among the experts and international NGOs on sustainable development that an Effective policymaking including major infrastructure project, will need to consider the balance of these three pillars, e.g 3Es (Economy, Environment, and Equity/Ethical Social Justice) and/or 3Ps (People, Planet, Profit/Prosperity), This 3Es and 3Ps have been discussed in here when people are discussing the waste management.

Waste Management in Indonesia

Huh? What would the looting be over again? The cost of a bag? If it were just one plastic bag, it might not seem like a big deal. But what about daily shopping? Every time you visit the public market and purchase items from various vendors on the same day, you receive a plastic bag. Even for...

www.expatindo.org

Also Post #12. This is an example how the government takes control to halt a data centre project that might cause problem to local community. presumably after seeking advice from expert.

No Electricity Enough for Data Centers in US

From https://finance.yahoo.com/markets/article/the-united-states-could-face-a-major-electricity-shortfall-through-2030-bofa-says-185529669.html Title : The United States could face a major electricity shortfall through 2030, BofA says By Jake Conley , July 2026 Poster's Note : BofA = Bank of...

www.expatindo.org

 

[Hawk256]

Practically every large office building in the world has a large number of computers running and large HVAC systems (which require cooling fans) running 24/7 with no complaints. There are only 1,189 hyper scale large data factories in the entire world. There are 7.5 million large factories that potentially make much more noise and pollution but not a peep about them?

Considering how many there are, yes it is barely a peep. You are attaching stories of workers in the factories not people living around the factories which is what these arguments are about. It all just doesn't add up to me. We are getting softer and softer every day. How did computers and air conditioning get so dangerous over night?

 

[harryopal1]

Considering how many there are, yes it is barely a peep. You are attaching stories of workers in the factories not people living around the factories which is what these arguments are about. It all just doesn't add up to me. We are getting softer and softer every day. How did computers and air conditioning get so dangerous over night?

"How did computers and air conditioning get so dangerous over night?". It is not a matter of danger happening overnight as it takes some while for evidence to accumulate before people become aware of problems and then often a very very long time and a lot more evidence before authorities take action involving processes and products that have become widely used in societies. Take asbestos: A product that first began to be used thousands of years ago. From 1940 to 1980 there was a kind of golden age for asbestos being used for its fire resistance and insulating properties. There had been reports of miners in ancient times falling ill with exposure but it was 1906 before the first documented British death was recorded;. Through last century there were many warnings made by doctors and pathologists that asbestos was dangerous. In Australia a former journalist colleague of mine, Matt Peacock was responsbile in the 1980s for exposing the full dangers and the cover up by the company James Hardie about the frightening truth about just how many workers were suffering and dying with mesothelimonia brought on by ihhaling asbestos fibres and dust. Between 1982 and 2020 there were found to have been 20,064 people diagnoised with mesothelimonia.

 

[Balifrog]

From 1940 to 1980 there was a kind of golden age for asbestos being used for its fire resistance and insulating properties

ON our 70's Navy ships assbestos was massively used. I lived in it for years..
As long there are no "leaks" it's ok, otherwhile asbestos dust is very unhealthy.

But I agree with @Hawk256 that the new generations seems much more fragile than in our days...

 

[harryopal1]

ON our 70's Navy ships assbestos was massively used. I lived in it for years..
As long there are no "leaks" it's ok, otherwhile asbestos dust is very unhealthy.

View attachment 5684

But I agree with @Hawk256 that the new generations seems much more fragile than in our days...

Does the French navy still use asbestos in its ships?

 

[jstar]

50 years ago the life expectancy was like 4-8 years shorter and the average height of men was like 5 cm shorter.

But keep on kidding yourself with this “everything was okay and now people are wimps” idea.

 

[Balifrog]

Does the French navy still use asbestos in its ships?

I don't think so.

 

[Balifrog]

But keep on kidding yourself with this “everything was okay and now people are wimps” idea.

Well nowadays you can't show smoking on TV, you can't show alcohol drinking, you can't show any brand and t*ts, naked ass or dead bodies must be blurred.
But 2 women kicking the shit out of each other in a cage is OK and considered as sport.....
Coluche, many other comics would not be allowed anymore. Serge Gainsbourg drunk burning a 500 Fr note would not be allowed anymore.


Shocking ? Maybe, but freedom of expression...
Yes, those days were MUCH more fun than now !

About being taller or living older....a majority of US population is overweight or obese, and it's arriving to Europe...

Even More Young Americans Are Unfit to Serve, a New Study Finds. Here's Why.

The updated figures paint a picture of what is currently plaguing military recruiters in many of the service branches, with a shrinking pool of potential service members available to them.

www.military.com

 

[Hawk256]

"How did computers and air conditioning get so dangerous over night?". It is not a matter of danger happening overnight as it takes some while for evidence to accumulate before people become aware of problems and then often a very very long time and a lot more evidence before authorities take action involving processes and products that have become widely used in societies. Take asbestos: A product that first began to be used thousands of years ago. From 1940 to 1980 there was a kind of golden age for asbestos being used for its fire resistance and insulating properties. There had been reports of miners in ancient times falling ill with exposure but it was 1906 before the first documented British death was recorded;. Through last century there were many warnings made by doctors and pathologists that asbestos was dangerous. In Australia a former journalist colleague of mine, Matt Peacock was responsbile in the 1980s for exposing the full dangers and the cover up by the company James Hardie about the frightening truth about just how many workers were suffering and dying with mesothelimonia brought on by ihhaling asbestos fibres and dust. Between 1982 and 2020 there were found to have been 20,064 people diagnoised with mesothelimonia.

You are comparing apples to oranges but I guess you have to for there to be any argument at all. Killer air conditioners or computers just doesn't fly.

 

[Hawk256]

50 years ago the life expectancy was like 4-8 years shorter and the average height of men was like 5 cm shorter.

But keep on kidding yourself with this “everything was okay and now people are wimps” idea.

People are living longer because modern medicine keeps them alive longer that it used be able to. Pretty simple and straightforward. So many things that used to be death sentence are now a minor note in your medical history. AIDS is one example but many types of cancer also fall into the same category. Even in the old days, childhood was what was dangerous. If you made it to 20, you had a good chance of living to be an old man. Why the hell does 5 cm shorter mean anything? Do you have something going on about measuring things?

 

[jstar]

OMG. You realize there are other factors than improved healthcare and medication? All these things like better living conditions (yes it is a factor), improved sanitation, safety in society and work, healthier eating habits and better food, moving away from unhealthy habits like smoking, …. all play a role.

And to spoon feed you a bit more, try to read this:

Over many generations, better nutrition and lower disease have led to people becoming taller

Poor nutrition and illness can limit human growth, so long-term improvements in living conditions are often reflected in increases in average height.

ourworldindata.org

Amazing right?

 

[Hawk256]

OMG. You realize there are other factors than improved healthcare and medication? All these things like better living conditions (yes it is a factor), improved sanitation, safety in society and work, healthier eating habits and better food, moving away from unhealthy habits like smoking, …. all play a role.

And to spoon feed you a bit more, try to read this:

Over many generations, better nutrition and lower disease have led to people becoming taller

Poor nutrition and illness can limit human growth, so long-term improvements in living conditions are often reflected in increases in average height.

ourworldindata.org

Amazing right?

I never said they didn't play a role but a quick Google search will give the main reasons and make the same points I made in the previous post. Medical Interventions, surgical advances, immunization and last but not least for developing countries infant mortality and keeping the child alive until adulthood. Not sure how much clearer it could be.

I'm already more than 5cm taller than most Asians so I must be in really good health. Still not sure how that makes a difference in arguing that computers and air conditioners are dangerous to public health but move those goal posts all you need.

 

[Bob]

Practically every large office building in the world has a large number of computers running and large HVAC systems (which require cooling fans) running 24/7 with no complaints. There are only 1,189 hyper scale large data factories in the entire world. There are 7.5 million large factories that potentially make much more noise and pollution but not a peep about them?

Maybe the difference in perception is that most large office buildings are in cities, industrial parks or other areas zoned for commerce and not housing, at least in a lot of countries. The noise from the buildings isn't as strong as from data centers, crypto mines and the like and there's also a lot of ambient noise in the neighborhood, so it's not so noticeable.
I guess people are more willing to put up with a factory's or a mine's noise when their income depends on it. A lot of the data centers and the like, at least around D.C., have been and are being built in what are mainly commuter residential areas. The folks there live in what were pastures not so long ago and they want to maintain the relative quiet. They're the same people who'd move into new housing next to an airport and then petition for the flight paths to be changed (see Ashburn).

 

[jstar]

Does the French navy still use asbestos in its ships?

In many countries all asbestos has been banned 25 years ago. While the World Health Organization (WHO) classifies all forms of asbestos as carcinogenic and advocates banning its use, asbestos is still legally permitted and widely used in Indonesia, leaving many industrial workers at serious health risk.

The report highlights the detection of the first confirmed cases of asbestosis—a chronic, irreversible lung disease caused by long-term inhalation of asbestos fibers—among factory workers in Indonesia.

 

[Hawk256]

In many countries all asbestos has been banned 25 years ago. While the World Health Organization (WHO) classifies all forms of asbestos as carcinogenic and advocates banning its use, asbestos is still legally permitted and widely used in Indonesia, leaving many industrial workers at serious health risk.

The report highlights the detection of the first confirmed cases of asbestosis—a chronic, irreversible lung disease caused by long-term inhalation of asbestos fibers—among factory workers in Indonesia.

A section of the roof of my house in Indonesia has asbestos roofing. Had a garage in the US that used asbestos siding. As long as you don't cut into it there are no problems. It's the dust that settles in your lungs. With that being said my great grandfather died from complications of working in an asbestos factory. It was pretty brutal. I was very young at the time but I still remember him asking someone to open the door in the middle of winter because he couldn't breathe.