War

[dafluff]

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[Balifrog]

Surprised nobody ever made a comment about the use of "frog" in my boardname being disrespectfull for the people of France ?
Heuuuu, wait, wait ...

 

[Nimbus]

You call yourself a frog then claim to be victimized?

 

[Dave70]

A sovereign nation wanting to choose its own alliances is justification to invade it?

Nobody said war is justified. But Putin had his own considerations, it's all about politics and security. He's also worried about ethnic Russians in Ukraine as the government promotes Russophobia policy. Combined with growing neo-Nazism, this is a toxic combination for future acts of terrorism or even wars. And don't forget about his worries for Crimea and the 2 new republics in Donbass as explained in my earlier posts.

Putin's declaration of war made it clear he thinks Ukraine is an illegitimate nation and his ambition is to restore the boundaries of the USSR, or greater.

Does declaration of war mean "war against an illegitimate nation"? I don't think so, just look at wars against Iraq, Libya, Syria, are those countries "illegitimate"?

And regarding "his ambition", that is just pure speculation.

 

[Marcel123]

One thing for certain, the CIA did not make Sukarno declare ‘konfrontasi’ with Malaysia. It was purely the product of nationalistic zeal combined with his power as president-for-life.

It is no secret that Suharto was close to USA despite maintaining the official stance of non-alignment. However, East Timor was not a military threat to anybody, and USA wasn’t pushing Suharto to capture it.

Your bringing the CIA is completely irrelevant to the topic.

The CIA is very relevant in this topic ,For years they are every active in Ukraine r

 

[Nimbus]

The CIA is very relevant in this topic ,For years they are every active in Ukraine r

Are you saying that Ukrainians need serious convincing from the CIA that they want independence? How about Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Georgia, and Chechnya? How about Finland, which was part of imperial Russia?

I’m tired of this ‘whataboutism’. It was wrong for USA to invade Iraq, it was wrong for Indonesia to invade East Timor, and it is wrong for Russia to invade Ukraine. Countless other wrongs in the world don’t make Russia right.

 

[Balifrog]

Back on topic.
I never had much consideration for Zelinskyy (UKR President). The guy is a bit of a dreamer, zero politic or geopolitical experience, has contributed to wind up the situation instead of winding it down, has a government team mainly made of people without any experience, etc ....
But one thing I take my hat of is that the guy seems to be a simple, honest patriot and is not scared to make tweets of him in the streets of Kiev, very calm.
Most Western President in his situation would or have run out of the country, or would be hiding in a bunker surrounded by 100 security agents.
Then again, the guy is a comedian, comes from the show bussiness and sure knows how to handle his P.R.
Nevertheless, I respect that personal part of him.
Much less the part where he continues to put oil on the fire.....
Arming the civilians, pushing people to thrown molotov cocktails on the Russians, even it is very patriotic can only end with disastrous consequences for his civilian population.
Till now the Russians have shown a lot of restraint in their warfaring, avoiding too much damage to civilian infrastructure and causing civilian casualties.
But if they start getting hit by civilians, this could change and make the said civilians being labelled rebels or terrorists.
Nobody wants to see a building by building urban warfare like Grozny, orAleppo !

 

[Dave70]

This opinion (not fact) is bull. Ukraine is never a military threat to Russia. Georgia too. That never stopped Russia from invading them.

They want to be members of NATO precisely because Russia invaded them.

"The president of Ukraine is to blame for the war" is an opinion, sure I agree.

However, it is a fact that he went to MSC and shouted about NATO membership for Ukraine.

Ukraine can choose to be neutral, and there would have been no war.

To make it better (for long-lasting peace and prosperity), Ukraine should dismantle all Russophobia policies, ban the neo-Nazis or White Supremacists organizations, recognize the referendum result in Crimea and the 2 new republics in Donbass.

 

[Dave70]

has a government team mainly made of people without any experience, etc ....

Heard that he appointed his friends in the show business to government positions, he won with more than 70% of the votes, now his popularity rating is down to 2% (before the war started).

 

[Balifrog]

You call yourself a frog then claim to be victimized?

Please Google "Tongue in cheek"
On top of going back to your missed history lessons ....

 

[Balifrog]

The CIA is very relevant in this topic ,For years they are every active in Ukraine r

Yep, US and CIA were involved during the Maidan revolution

Revolution of Dignity - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

United States involvement​

In December 2013, Republican Senator John McCain in company with Democratic senator Chris Murphy visited Yatsenyuk and Tyahnybok and later addressed the crowds:

Ukraine will make Europe better and Europe will make Ukraine better, we are here to support your just cause, the sovereign right of Ukraine to determine its own destiny freely and independently. And the destiny you seek lies in Europe, What we're trying to do is try to bring about a peaceful transition here, that would stop the violence and give the Ukrainian people what they unfortunately have not had, with different revolutions that have taken place – a real society. This is a grassroots revolution here – it's been peaceful except when the government tried to crack down on them, and the government hasn't tried that since. I'm praising their ability and their desire to demonstrate peacefully for change that I think they deserve. These people love the United States of America, they love freedom – and I don't think you could view this as anything other than our traditional support for people who want free and democratic society.[66]

In a recorded phone conversation leaked on 4 February, Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt are heard discussing their wishes for a Ukraine transition to an interim government, and specifically, the roles in which they hoped to see the prominent opposition leaders:

Nuland: "I don't think Klitsch (Klitschko) should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea."
Pyatt: "Just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff."
Nuland: "I think Yats (Yatsenyuk) is the guy who's got the economic experience the governing experience. I just think Klitsch going in… he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work. We want to try to get somebody with an international personality to come out here and help to midwife this thing."[67]

Nuland was also recorded in the same conversation saying, "F... the EU". Dismissively referring to slow-moving European efforts to address political paralysis and a looming fiscal crisis in Ukraine.[68]

Other links to read :

Ian Traynor: US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev

Analysis: Ukraine, traditionally passive in its politics, has been mobilised by young democracy activists and will never be the same again.

amp.theguardian.com

A Google search "CIA (or US) inervention during the Maidan revolution" will bring up plenty interesting stuff. Some less credible than others, but there is no smoke without fire !

 

[Balifrog]

Are you saying that Ukrainians need serious convincing from the CIA that they want independence? How about Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Georgia, and Chechnya? How about Finland, which was part of imperial Russia?

I’m tired of this ‘whataboutism’. It was wrong for USA to invade Iraq, it was wrong for Indonesia to invade East Timor, and it is wrong for Russia to invade Ukraine. Countless other wrongs in the world don’t make Russia right.

Nobody says Russia is "right" (only the US are allowed this claim anyway !)
But one has to understand, going back in history, how we arrived at the actual situation.
Geopolitics is never black and white (hope this will not be interpreted as racial slur..). It's all about 100 shades of grey.
Again : Nations don't have allies or friends, only self interest !

 

[Balifrog]

Heard that he appointed his friends in the show business to government positions, he won with more than 70% of the votes, now his popularity rating is down to 2% (before the war started).

Correct. I read a report on that some time ago. If I find it, I will post a link.
On the other hand I understand his dilema.
First of all his presidential campaign was financed by an oligarch owning the TV channel that produced the serie "Servant of the people" in which Zelenskyy played the role of a teacher becoming President. But I suppose, all our Ukraine experts on here knew that already !
So he "owns" the guy who helped him, to start with.
Secondly Ukraine is a VERY corrupt country. (But still slightly better than Russia)

Corruption in Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

"Corruption is widespread in Ukrainian society.[1][2] In 2012 Ernst & Young put Ukraine among the three most-corrupt nations of the world—alongside Colombia and Brazil.[3] In 2015 The Guardian called Ukraine "the most corrupt nation in Europe".[4] According to a poll conducted by Ernst & Young in 2017, experts considered Ukraine to be the ninth-most corrupt nation in the world.[5] According to the Transparency International's Corruption Perceptions Index, Ukraine ranked 117th out of 180 countries in 2020, ranking the second lowest in Europe, after Russia.[6]"

So, Zelenskyy who had anti corruption high on his election promises knew that he could not take the traditionnal, usual politicians in his parlement.
They would do everything possible to sabotage his actions.
Hence he took friends and relatives, mostly from the show bizz world which he trusted. Of course none had any experience in running a country....

It seems he didn't interfere too much with the Army, which proved in the last days to be pretty efficient.

 

[Nimbus]

"The president of Ukraine is to blame for the war" is an opinion, sure I agree.

However, it is a fact that he went to MSC and shouted about NATO membership for Ukraine.

Ukraine can choose to be neutral, and there would have been no war.

To make it better (for long-lasting peace and prosperity), Ukraine should dismantle all Russophobia policies, ban the neo-Nazis or White Supremacists organizations, recognize the referendum result in Crimea and the 2 new republics in Donbass.

Indonesia could have just welcomed Dutch administration back instead of insisting on staying independent. By law the archipelago belongs to the Netherlands. The revolutionary war would have been averted. Wanting to be fully independent tend to invite war from the imperialist/colonialist/fascist/hegemon/bully, but I’ll be damned if I blame people for it.

Ukraine is far from perfect, by many accounts it has a fairly corrupt government along with many other problems. But if that is a pretext for war and subjugation, Indonesia would be high on the list of countries that ‘deserve’ to be invaded.

 

[Bob]

Back on topic.
I never had much consideration for Zelinskyy (UKR President). The guy is a bit of a dreamer, zero politic or geopolitical experience, has contributed to wind up the situation instead of winding it down, has a government team mainly made of people without any experience, etc ....
But one thing I take my hat of is that the guy seems to be a simple, honest patriot and is not scared to make tweets of him in the streets of Kiev, very calm.
Most Western President in his situation would or have run out of the country, or would be hiding in a bunker surrounded by 100 security agents.
Then again, the guy is a comedian, comes from the show bussiness and sure knows how to handle his P.R.
Nevertheless, I respect that personal part of him.
Much less the part where he continues to put oil on the fire.....
Arming the civilians, pushing people to thrown molotov cocktails on the Russians, even it is very patriotic can only end with disastrous consequences for his civilian population.
Till now the Russians have shown a lot of restraint in their warfaring, avoiding too much damage to civilian infrastructure and causing civilian casualties.
But if they start getting hit by civilians, this could change and make the said civilians being labelled rebels or terrorists.
Nobody wants to see a building by building urban warfare like Grozny, orAleppo !

That could easily be avoided by not starting a war.

 

[dafluff]

Geopolitics is never black and white (hope this will not be interpreted as racial slur..). It's all about 100 shades of grey.

Those are obviously not racial slurs. What you posted before however, was, and was way worse. So let's not pretend they are the same.

 

[Bob]

"The president of Ukraine is to blame for the war" is an opinion, sure I agree.

However, it is a fact that he went to MSC and shouted about NATO membership for Ukraine.

Ukraine can choose to be neutral, and there would have been no war.

To make it better (for long-lasting peace and prosperity), Ukraine should dismantle all Russophobia policies, ban the neo-Nazis or White Supremacists organizations, recognize the referendum result in Crimea and the 2 new republics in Donbass.

Yes, the old, 'give me what you have and be my slave, and we will get along' approach.

 

[Bob]

Are you saying that Ukrainians need serious convincing from the CIA that they want independence? How about Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Georgia, and Chechnya? How about Finland, which was part of imperial Russia?

I’m tired of this ‘whataboutism’. It was wrong for USA to invade Iraq, it was wrong for Indonesia to invade East Timor, and it is wrong for Russia to invade Ukraine. Countless other wrongs in the world don’t make Russia right.

I think his point was that the US has been stirring the pot, and they have. Ukrainians don't need convincing but the aid was probably much appreciated.

 

[Balifrog]

That could easily be avoided by not starting a war.

Great idea ! Too bad we didn't think about that 50 years ago ?

 

[Nimbus]

I think his point was that the US has been stirring the pot, and they have. Ukrainians don't need convincing but the aid was probably much appreciated.

USA is likely returning Russia’s favor for interfering with US election and placing a Putin stooge in the White House.