War

[Bob]

Yes sure. I was just answering your statements that it wouldn't be tolerated anywhere in the US, and that the bullet greasing "has (not) happened recently in or by the US", which weren't true.

The meaning was the US military, including the national guard. Nobody else should be shooting at any anyone in combat.

 

[Nimbus]

Deep in that context refers to extent and not duration.
Ukraine's neo-Nazi troops are not their fault. Good one, but sure, if you say so. They do have neo-Nazi troops though. Nazis are generally a racism indicator.
The last few US presidential elections have been choices between the devil and the deep blue sea to phrase it politely. Trump's opponents also had serious flaws, other than emails and laptops. Many voted for their perception of the lesser of two evils rather than someone they really supported. Regarding Trump's comments on C'ville, if you read or watch them in their entirety you will see that he specifically excluded the neo-Nazis and other racists from his 'very fine people'.
I'm sorry that your wife apparently faces discrimination. And if your issues with your previous boss were due to racism that is unfortunate too.
After all that, in my view Ukraine's white supremacy issue is worse that the USA's.
If you'd like to discuss America's history or social issues I'd look forward to that, in another thread.

Maybe my English is different, but people usually say “widespread” when referring to extent. Depth and width are two different things.

As for the Azov Battalion, it takes seconds of search to find out that it was established right after Putin annexed Crimea in February 2014. No annexation, no Azov battalion.

When Indonesia was struggling for independence from the Dutch, it had to tolerate and live with Darul Islam forces, whose goal were to establish an Islamic state. That is obviously not what the republic is all about, but the differences were temporarily set aside to face the common enemy: the Dutch. Indonesia also tolerated communist factions during the revolution, up until they rebelled and attacked government forces. It is important to note that the Dutch did everything in its power to convince USA and the world that the Indonesian independence movement was a communist movement, despite the Indonesian government’s internal struggle with the communists.

Putin is doing the same shit. He took Crimea by force, and when Ukraine had to tolerate the Azov as part of their defense, he then accused the entire country of being run by Nazis, despite having a Jewish president.

Beggars can’t be choosers. When you’re struggling for your independence and facing an overwhelming common enemy, you can’t afford to liquidate a functioning military force just because it doesn’t fit your ideology.

As for Trump, this is the same guy who told the white supremacist Proud Boys “Stand back and stand by.” I have no interest in discussing him with his apologists, I spent too many years talking about him already. There’s an entire thread here about him. If you like him that’s fine, but there’s nothing you can say that would change my mind.

Don’t think that I have not heard other viewpoints about him. My in laws and many of my colleagues are rabid Trump supporters, and most are not shy about their views. The guys on the gun forums aren’t slow in regurgitating his garbage either. There is nothing you would say in his defense that’s new to me. This is not me living in a liberal echo chamber, this is me suffocated by tons of trumpers pretending to be conservatives.

 

[Bob]

Maybe my English is different, but people usually say “widespread” when referring to extent. Depth and width are two different things.

As for the Azov Battalion, it takes seconds of search to find out that it was established right after Putin annexed Crimea in February 2014. No annexation, no Azov battalion.

When Indonesia was struggling for independence from the Dutch, it had to tolerate and live with Darul Islam forces, whose goal were to establish an Islamic state. That is obviously not what the republic is all about, but the differences were temporarily set aside to face the common enemy: the Dutch. Indonesia also tolerated communist factions during the revolution, up until they rebelled and attacked government forces. It is important to note that the Dutch did everything in its power to convince USA and the world that the Indonesian independence movement was a communist movement, despite the Indonesian government’s internal struggle with the communists.

Putin is doing the same shit. He took Crimea by force, and when Ukraine had to tolerate the Azov as part of their defense, he then accused the entire country of being run by Nazis, despite having a Jewish president.

Beggars can’t be choosers. When you’re struggling for your independence and facing an overwhelming common enemy, you can’t afford to liquidate a functioning military force just because it doesn’t fit your ideology.

As for Trump, this is the same guy who told the white supremacist Proud Boys “Stand back and stand by.” I have no interest in discussing him with his apologists, I spent too many years talking about him already. There’s an entire thread here about him. If you like him that’s fine, but there’s nothing you can say that would change my mind.

Don’t think that I have not heard other viewpoints about him. My in laws and many of my colleagues are rabid Trump supporters, and most are not shy about their views. The guys on the gun forums aren’t slow in regurgitating his garbage either. There is nothing you would say in his defense that’s new to me. This is not me living in a liberal echo chamber, this is me suffocated by tons of trumpers pretending to be conservatives.

Deep can refer to extent; there are different ways to express the concept.
I thought I had finished discussing US politics in a thread about Europe, but we all make mistakes.
Don't infer or imply that I like Trump. My comment about C'ville was purely in the interest of accuracy.

 

[atlantis]

The meaning was the US military, including the national guard. Nobody else should be shooting at any anyone in combat.

Yes, no one should but in reality and for the past few decades private personnel hired to provide military services have often been present in armed conflicts and have carried out active combat operations. This is not gonna change anytime soon.

Many are highly professional but relying by definition on human personal they aren't exempt of flaws. And shit happens, unfortunately sometimes (often?) partially covered up or excused by those who hire them.

I guess I don't need to recall the Blackwater carnage causing the death of 17 civilians in Bagdad, of which at least 14 have been officially recognized as having been killed without a cause. It was perpetrated by 4 former US military personnel hired by Blackwater, one was convicted for murder, three for manslaughter. None received less than 30 years as a sentence. All were finally pardoned by a US President on the ground that they allegedly had a "long history of service to the nation" as US veterans. The official statement for the pardon even go up to trying to cast suspicion on the investigation leading to their sentence. Unfortunately when a President acts like that, it makes it difficult for the Nation to pretend that their servicemen or those hired by them are accountable when abuses occur.

The cost of employing private military companies for certain functions could be much lower than that of national armed forces and governments will increasingly consider them, therefore also taking the risk that an increasing number of abuses occur. But it would be wrong to say that abuses only occur at the hand of private contractors.

You most certainly are aware of the graphic photographs and video documenting horrific torture of Iraqi prisoners detained by the U.S. at Abu Ghraib in the early 2000's. These were perpetrated by soldiers of the 372nd Military Police Company, by members of the American intelligence community and by private contractors initially hired to provide translator services but which ended providing interrogation services.

Subsequent investigations led to the court martial of only a few low level soldiers, despite numerous allegation of a widespread pattern of abuses in the US war prison system, with most soldiers receiving minor sentences. I am ready to stand corrected but I believe that none have effectively done more than 6 years in jail and most were sentenced to less than a year or no criminal prosecution. General Karpinsky, who was running Abu Ghraib, was only demoted. At the time the defense of the US military personnel involved was that they were carrying out the orders of their superiors, and most particularly, the directions of military intelligence. At Abu Ghraib in at least 1 case, despite military autopsy declaring a death being an homicide, no one was charged for it. In the Bagram prison abuse and torture scandal, despite military coroners stating that the death of at least 2 detainees were homicides, only reprimands, demotions or prison sentences of less than 6 months were given.

I don't believe that any Army thrown in a fierce theater of war can claim that they are exempt of potential abuses and misconduct by its personnel. If most have a code of honor and respect it, sometimes things can go south and accountability in times of war is not always the priority.

 

[Bob]

Yes, no one should but in reality and for the past few decades private personnel hired to provide military services have often been present in armed conflicts and have carried out active combat operations. This is not gonna change anytime soon.

Many are highly professional but relying by definition on human personal they aren't exempt of flaws. And shit happens, unfortunately sometimes (often?) partially covered up or excused by those who hire them.

I guess I don't need to recall the Blackwater carnage causing the death of 17 civilians in Bagdad, of which at least 14 have been officially recognized as having been killed without a cause. It was perpetrated by 4 former US military personnel hired by Blackwater, one was convicted for murder, three for manslaughter. None received less than 30 years as a sentence. All were finally pardoned by a US President on the ground that they allegedly had a "long history of service to the nation" as US veterans. The official statement for the pardon even go up to trying to cast suspicion on the investigation leading to their sentence. Unfortunately when a President acts like that, it makes it difficult for the Nation to pretend that their servicemen or those hired by them are accountable when abuses occur.

The cost of employing private military companies for certain functions could be much lower than that of national armed forces and governments will increasingly consider them, therefore also taking the risk that an increasing number of abuses occur. But it would be wrong to say that abuses only occur at the hand of private contractors.

You most certainly are aware of the graphic photographs and video documenting horrific torture of Iraqi prisoners detained by the U.S. at Abu Ghraib in the early 2000's. These were perpetrated by soldiers of the 372nd Military Police Company, by members of the American intelligence community and by private contractors initially hired to provide translator services but which ended providing interrogation services.

Subsequent investigations led to the court martial of only a few low level soldiers, despite numerous allegation of a widespread pattern of abuses in the US war prison system, with most soldiers receiving minor sentences. I am ready to stand corrected but I believe that none have effectively done more than 6 years in jail and most were sentenced to less than a year or no criminal prosecution. General Karpinsky, who was running Abu Ghraib, was only demoted. At the time the defense of the US military personnel involved was that they were carrying out the orders of their superiors, and most particularly, the directions of military intelligence. At Abu Ghraib in at least 1 case, despite military autopsy declaring a death being an homicide, no one was charged for it. In the Bagram prison abuse and torture scandal, despite military coroners stating that the death of at least 2 detainees were homicides, only reprimands, demotions or prison sentences of less than 6 months were given.

I don't believe that any Army thrown in a fierce theater of war can claim that they are exempt of potential abuses and misconduct by its personnel. If most have a code of honor and respect it, sometimes things can go south and accountability in times of war is not always the priority.

You make some good points. I am well aware of the cases you mentioned, and in my view the perpetrators should have faced heavy punishment. And I believe that if US soldiers fighting Muslims were found to be greasing cartridges with lard that the practice would not be tolerated by their commander(s).

 

[Dave70]

No I don't agree, I think he apologized far too much in kicking the guy out.

Those likeminded like you are in the “minority” according to Reader’s Poll by SMH.

Do you agree with Stan Grant’s decision to remove Sasha from the audience?

52% of more than 28 thousand votes casted as of today say NO while 48% say YES.

 

[Dave70]

Putin is doing the same shit. He took Crimea by force, and when Ukraine had to tolerate the Azov as part of their defense, he then accused the entire country of being run by Nazis, despite having a Jewish president.

Do you think Russia can occupy anything that doesn’t want to be occupied? It will be too costly. Even the US in Iraq and Afghanistan couldn’t afford it, how can the Russians afford occupying Crimea if the population resisted?

The Crimean population is mostly Russian speakers and proud of their Russian heritage. And given the harsh Russophobic legislation, they voted overwhelmingly to join Russia in a referendum.

More or less the same in the Donbass region, Donetsk and Luhansk, they don’t want to be second-class citizens of Ukraine.

The crux of the matter is, if the USA didn’t meddle in the affairs of Ukraine in 2014 (to put it mildly), there would be no Russia-Ukraine war today.

You should watch ‘Ukraine On Fire’ by Oliver Stone on Rumble (may not be available on YouTube).

 

[Dave70]

Your "Ukraine is the ONLY country in the world with official NAZI organization and their own battalion in the armed forces" holds no water and doesn't make Russia, which is home of ten of thousands of neo nazi, look any better.

That’s your opinion, I beg to differ. Neo-Nazi political party with members armed with guns, imagine what they can do come election time, especially against political opponents.

 

[Nimbus]

Do you think Russia can occupy anything that doesn’t want to be occupied? It will be too costly. Even the US in Iraq and Afghanistan couldn’t afford it, how can the Russians afford occupying Crimea if the population resisted?

The Crimean population is mostly Russian speakers and proud of their Russian heritage. And given the harsh Russophobic legislation, they voted overwhelmingly to join Russia in a referendum.

More or less the same in the Donbass region, Donetsk and Luhansk, they don’t want to be second-class citizens of Ukraine.

The crux of the matter is, if the USA didn’t meddle in the affairs of Ukraine in 2014 (to put it mildly), there would be no Russia-Ukraine war today.

You should watch ‘Ukraine On Fire’ by Oliver Stone on Rumble (may not be available on YouTube).

Yeah, if I don’t own nice things, I’d never tempt any criminal to rob me. That’s basically you justifying Russia.

Comical.

 

[Dave70]

For Russia giving the chase against neo nazi as a reason for their war in Ukraine is just laughable and beyond hypocritical. I don't say that it's "worse than Ukraine" or "better than Ukraine". Personally I find @R Cameron's "like a cow in a pen with a chicken, complaining the chicken shits too much" very apt.

You know it's not just about the neo-Nazis, more importantly for Russia are Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk, NATO.

 

[scouser59]

You know it's not just about the neo-Nazis, more importantly for Russia are Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk, NATO.

My mam told me never to feed the trolls at the bottom of the garden because they will never leave , but ya I cant resist sorry mam.
Your amongst freinds here <sic> "go on" tell us how much your getting from the fsb ,fancy bear or whatever , to spread the propoganda , "go on" i promise I wont tell your paymasters .

 

[fastpitch17]

Yes sure. I was just answering your statements that it wouldn't be tolerated anywhere in the US, and that the bullet greasing "has (not) happened recently in or by the US", which weren't true.

No, probably didn't but if there would have been a pig running around, well, who knows. All I can say is that the US treatment of prisoners in Iraq and Afgahnistan included threatening them with pig blood, and fat. While they didn't have any pigs running around to contribute such, they did have some women who seemed eager to donate menstral blood in place of the pig. My guess would be that if they had found a pig, it would have been put to use and that could very well include smearing pig fat or blood on the munitions.

 

[fastpitch17]

You know it's not just about the neo-Nazis, more importantly for Russia are Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk, NATO.

Most importantly for Russia? You mean putin. The same guy who spread all the propaganda about hiw big and powerful the russian military is. So many claims about big, better, faster, more powerful to make people believe him. Problem for putin, he started believing his own propaganda. Ukraine is proving him not such a major power everyone thought he was. Putin should have just kept talking instead of trying to put a failed invasion together. All putin is going to accomplish is destroying buildings, intentionally killing women and children, having his own military lose more lives in 20 days than the US lost in 20 years in Afghanistan, losing a rediculas number of his war machines, 4 generals in 3 weeks, and the world turning against him. Well, not the whole world. He still has a couple comrads right here.

 

[R Cameron]

I believe that if US soldiers fighting Muslims were found to be greasing cartridges with lard that the practice would not be tolerated by their commander(s).

There was a US general 100 years ago who is rumored to have killed Muslim opponents in the Philippines with bullets dipped in pigs blood to deter their opposition. Trump brought up that story multiple times both campaigning and while in office, and his clear implication was that he approved of the idea and would like to see it implemented again.

 

[Bob]

There was a US general 100 years ago who is rumored to have killed Muslim opponents in the Philippines with bullets dipped in pigs blood to deter their opposition. Trump brought up that story multiple times both campaigning and while in office, and his clear implication was that he approved of the idea and would like to see it implemented again.

We never know what he may say, he's kind of like a three year old. But I think the military wouldn't tolerate it.

 

[Dave70]

@scouser59 @fastpitch17 @R Cameron



Don't tell me he's another “Putin Apologist” or “Russian Propagandist”.

Col. Douglas MacGregor is a former Senior Advisor to the US Defense Secretary. He is also a decorated war veteran who had served his/your country well, how can he be a “Putin Apologist” or “Russian Propagandist”?

He’s just saying his honest opinion when he said “I think Zelenskyy is a puppet and he is putting huge numbers of his own population at unnecessary risk”.

 

[atlantis]

Don't tell me he's another “Putin Apologist” or “Russian Propagandist”.

Col. Douglas MacGregor is a former Senior Advisor to the US Defense Secretary.

How convenient it is to have omitted to say it in full as in "Macgregor, who served as a senior advisor under Trump"?

Is he also one of your mavericks of US politics?

If so you should be careful and check a bit who you quote and what they have said in a recent past.

He gave his "honest opinion", as you put it, also when saying:

“We have a huge problem with a class of so-called elites, the people who are wealthy, very wealthy in many cases and they are, as the Russians used to call certain individuals many, many years ago, rootless cosmopolitans,”

Do you know who he refers too in this sentence? Any idea who those evil "wealthy, very wealthy (...) rootless cosmopolitans" are?

For your perusal, the terminology, “rootless cosmopolitans” is an anti-Semitic euphemism for Jews and was popularized by Joseph Stalin. Adolf Hitler too was referring to Jews as "disloyal cosmopolitans" in Mein Kampf.

Again for your information, Mc Gregor was considered to be nominated to become the ambassador to Germany (proposed by Trump, surprise! surprise!) but after dismissing German remembrance of the holocaust and downplayed the country's nazi history it appeared to the Senate that it may be a serious faux pas to name him.

So yes, you are correct in a way: he's not another “Putin Apologist” or “Russian Propagandist”. Just worse than that.

The fact that you dare stating "honest opinion" when a guy who has multiplied anti semitic remarks over the years, speaks about a Jew (Zelenskyy) is beyond me.

Now your hero's biography is a bit more complete.

 

[Nimbus]

How convenient it is to have omitted to say it in full as in "Macgregor, who served as a senior advisor under Trump"?

Is he also one of your mavericks of US politics?

If so you should be careful and check a bit who you quote and what they have said in a recent past.

He gave his "honest opinion", as you put it, also when saying:

“We have a huge problem with a class of so-called elites, the people who are wealthy, very wealthy in many cases and they are, as the Russians used to call certain individuals many, many years ago, rootless cosmopolitans,”

Do you know who he refers too in this sentence? Any idea who those evil "wealthy, very wealthy (...) rootless cosmopolitans" are?

For your perusal, the terminology, “rootless cosmopolitans” is an anti-Semitic euphemism for Jews and was popularized by Joseph Stalin. Adolf Hitler too was referring to Jews as "disloyal cosmopolitans" in Mein Kampf.

Again for your information, Mc Gregor was considered to be nominated to become the ambassador to Germany but after dismissing German remembrance of the holocaust and downplayed the country's nazi history it appeared that it may be a serious faux pas to name him.

So yes, you are correct in a way: he's not another “Putin Apologist” or “Russian Propagandist”. Just worse than that.

The fact that you dare stating "honest opinion" when a guy who has multiplied anti semitic remarks over the years, speaks about a Jew (Zelenskyy) is beyond me.

Now your hero's biography is a bit more complete.

Dave70 made such a big deal about neo nazis in Ukraine, yet quoted a nazi apologist to prop up his agenda, straight out of Fox News.

I’m just waiting until he drags in garbage from Tucker Carlson.

 

[atlantis]

Now your hero's biography is a bit more complete.

Wait.. let me put the last coating on your great "Senior Advisor to the US Defense Secretary" and "decorated war veteran".

The guy doesn't like Jews, but so that there is no jealous he doesn't like Muslims too. He insinuated that Muslim migrants were coming to Europe "with the goal of eventually turning Europe into an Islamic state." An "honest opinion" again

But the biography wouldn't be complete without a few stab at mexicans, would it? He is the guy who have repeatedly advised to institute martial law at the US-Mexico border and "shoot people" if necessary. Cool guy, really.

Back in the days of the Kosovo war, he critizised the US government intervening against Serbian forces who were engaged in ethnic cleansing and in his own word helping to put a "Muslim drug mafia in charge of that country."

Please @Dave70 keep up the good work. If Zelenskyy is a puppet, Mac Gregor is a clown. A pretty sad one though.

 

[Bad_azz]

You are all getting in a bit deep now guys, take a breather with this fun little game..."inspired by current events"
Farmers stealing tanks game -- you can all thank me later- flowers are accepted- especially sunflowers Mwah.

Farmers Stealing Tanks by PixelForest

Inspired by true events

pixelforest.itch.io