War

[Bob]

Serious? Evidently you know nothing about the white supreamist, fadical right in the US. From the deep South to the far North their are organized groups of self proclaimed white nationalist. From East to West they try to instill their influance over others. 6 years ago they were but sleeper groups and underground groups until they got their voice with trump. Now there are members of the US Legislature who are openly supporting white nationalism. Many new candidates for national and state offices now in the running thanks to trump and his pro nazi stance.

You're overstating the extent and influence of the white nationalists in the US. They're a vocal but very small group. The vast majority of folks in the US are not white supremacists.
For all his many and very severe flaws, I was unaware that Trump is pro-Nazi. I guess someone should tell his daughter..

 

[Dave70]

USA was still under Trump administration, and Ukraine knew Russia intended to use it as pretext for invasion. Volodymyr Zelenskyy was already president at the time. So he’s a pro-Nazi jewish guy?

I’ll say it again, in case it’s missed the first time around. This “Ukraine are taken over by Nazis” idea is pure unadulterated bullshit. They have white supremacy issues, but not worse than USA and Russia.

Whether Zelenskyy is a practicing or non-practicing Jew is unclear. But he told The Times of Israel that his family was “Not Orthodox. An ordinary Soviet Jewish family.”. He added “Most Jewish families in the Soviet Union were not religious. I never speak about religion and I never speak about God because I have my own personal opinion about it.”[1].

You need to understand that the neo-Nazis were already established there when Zelenskyy was elected. Fact is, they had him by the neck, that’s according to Scott Ritter (see post #226).

Nevertheless, there are Jews all over the world, and they serve their countries as they (and their donors) see fit, often to the detriment of Israel. Senator Chuck Schumer is an obvious example. Israel favors politicians who favor Israel, not those who happen to be Jewish.

Finally, did you know that to become President, Zelenskyy had to declare that he “understands” people who see Bandera as the creator of the nation. He said nothing about people who see Bandera as a Nazi mass murderer. A Jew in Ukraine is fine, as long as he/she knows his/her place, and agrees that unification of Ukraine is more important than perpetration of the Holocaust.

I'll say it again, in case you missed the first time around. Ukraine is the ONLY country in the world with official NAZI organization and their own battalion in the armed forces. Their organization is also political, and running in elections, in case you don't know.

 

[R Cameron]

Whether Zelenskyy is a practicing or non-practicing Jew is unclear. But he told The Times of Israel that his family was “Not Orthodox. An ordinary Soviet Jewish family.”. He added “Most Jewish families in the Soviet Union were not religious. I never speak about religion and I never speak about God because I have my own personal opinion about it.”[1].

Oh good, because, as everyone knows, the Nazis only ever killed practicing Jews, and neo-Nazis and anti-Semites today are only against practicing Jews.

Your "points" are comical, like a cow in a pen with a chicken, complaining the chicken shits too much.

 

[Nimbus]

Whether Zelenskyy is a practicing or non-practicing Jew is unclear. But he told The Times of Israel that his family was “Not Orthodox. An ordinary Soviet Jewish family.”. He added “Most Jewish families in the Soviet Union were not religious. I never speak about religion and I never speak about God because I have my own personal opinion about it.”[1].

You need to understand that the neo-Nazis were already established there when Zelenskyy was elected. Fact is, they had him by the neck, that’s according to Scott Ritter (see post #226).

Nevertheless, there are Jews all over the world, and they serve their countries as they (and their donors) see fit, often to the detriment of Israel. Senator Chuck Schumer is an obvious example. Israel favors politicians who favor Israel, not those who happen to be Jewish.

Finally, did you know that to become President, Zelenskyy had to declare that he “understands” people who see Bandera as the creator of the nation. He said nothing about people who see Bandera as a Nazi mass murderer. A Jew in Ukraine is fine, as long as he/she knows his/her place, and agrees that unification of Ukraine is more important than perpetration of the Holocaust.

I'll say it again, in case you missed the first time around. Ukraine is the ONLY country in the world with official NAZI organization and their own battalion in the armed forces. Their organization is also political, and running in elections, in case you don't know.

Comical cow pie.

 

[Dave70]

Oh good, because, as everyone knows, the Nazis only ever killed practicing Jews, and neo-Nazis and anti-Semites today are only against practicing Jews.

Your "points" are comical, like a cow in a pen with a chicken, complaining the chicken shits too much.

As explained in my comment, "A Jew in Ukraine is fine, as long as he/she knows his/her place...".

 

[Dave70]

Comical cow pie.

Is that the best you can respond?

 

[Nimbus]

Is that the best you can respond?

I’ve seen your best, this is my best response to that nonsensical jumble of words.

If a guy writes 3 pages of argument concluding that 2+3=7, I have no need to answer beyond it’s bullshit.

 

[Hawk256]

Have you lived in the South in USA? This is a country where it was illegal for a non-white to drink from the same water fountain as a white person until 1965.

I am from there and lived there many years. Do you think things haven't changed in the last 50+ years?

 

[atlantis]

In December 2020, Russia proposed United Nations Resolution “Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance : resolution / adopted by the General Assembly”.

https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/3894841?ln=en

Only Ukraine and the USA voted against it. All US allies abstained, with one exception, Israel voted for the resolution. Israel understands that they need to follow US orders, but glorification on Holocaust perpetrators is one thing they find hard to swallow.

First and foremost the Russian backed proposal of resolution didn't occur in 2020 but in fact recurrently since 2014, each time triggering the same reserves by the USA and EU nations. It's an annual resolution, signed by many countries and sometimes by countries which do little if not nothing to fight racism and xenophobia within their own borders.
Likewise, you would find out that it has always been the same block of around 50 countries which have either abstain or oppose (Canada has been in and out between opposing and abstaining)

Many countries abstained to vote for the Russia backed resolution recurrently because they felt that under cover of this condemnation, Russia was pursuing its own agenda, mainly pushing “disinformation narratives” about neo-Nazism in the Baltic states and Ukraine. Unfortunately the present situation is telling us that they were right.

The resolution coming from Russia is about as cynical as Putin claiming that the "special military operation" in Ukraine is made with the goal of de-nazifying it. If he would be so interested by denazification, he should probably start with its own country and not hosting for example a guy like Rinaldo Nazzaro, a notorious US white supremacist and founder of the group The Base, a group whose neo nazi members have been convicted for terrorist plots.. Oh... right. Nazis are good when they favor Russian interests. Got it.

Perhaps Putin should do something too against the Russian Imperialist Movement, which with its training facilities in St Petersburg has been providing paramilitary style training to white supremacist and neo nazi of all Europe and other parts of the world at least since 2014. It's also interesting to note that its military wing, known as the Imperial Legion, has fought alongside pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine, but also participated in military conflicts in Syria and Libya. If they are not integrated in the Russian military they at the very least get a strong support from them. Leaders of the RIM have never tried to hide their neo nazi sympathy.

It's also rich when you know that Putin and Russia have long been admired by the far right and white supremacists all over the world, like Richard spencer for example, who identified Russia as the "sole white power in the world", perceiving it as an an all-white, Christian nation.

Your "Ukraine is the ONLY country in the world with official NAZI organization and their own battalion in the armed forces" holds no water and doesn't make Russia, which is home of ten of thousands of neo nazi, look any better.

Neo nazism has been on the raise in ALL European countries, and far right parties have been running successfully during elections, and this with some of its leaders being openly sympathetic with neo nazi groups. For Russia giving the chase against neo nazi as a reason for their war in Ukraine is just laughable and beyond hypocritical. I don't say that it's "worse than Ukraine" or "better than Ukraine". Personally I find @R Cameron's "like a cow in a pen with a chicken, complaining the chicken shits too much" very apt.

 

[Nimbus]

I am from there and lived there many years. Do you think things haven't changed in the last 50+ years?

Things have changed, but a lot slower than many people think. People were still fighting over statues of confederate generals in 2020.

I was in Georgia when they lost their shit in 2001 and kicked the Governor out for removing the Confederate Battle Flag a.k.a. the Southern Cross from the state flag. The new governor replaced it with a near identical copy of the Confederate National Flag. This was the 21st century, not the 19th.

The constitution of the confederacy was very clear on its purpose to preserve slavery, but to this day you will still find plenty of people arguing that it was all about “states’ rights”.

I’m a gun guy, and I frequent gun forums. To say that the members are mostly trumpers is an understatement. I’m probably more exposed to veiled and not-so-veiled racism than the average people. They feel safe with their bullshit because on the internet they can’t tell I’m not white. I’m fairly certain that close to a quarter of Americans won’t have a problem if Trump kills democracy by preventing the certification of Biden’s election victory.

 

[fastpitch17]

All the Southerners screeming about racism and how it't improved while the Northerners and fireigners are talking about nationalist and neonazi types. For our Southern posters, there is a really big difference between nationalist white supreamist and you average run of the mill racist. White nationalism has grown throughout the US and ever since trump gave them a voice, they have grown more. It isn't a Southern thing at all. It us a national cancer and those here supporting it are certainly part of that cancer.

White nationalist have combined with anti government groups. Many of them train in the north woods of WI, MN, and MI. Can't get much more North than that unless you're Canadian. I have seen the likes of the KKK recruiting in places like Dubuque, IA where they have a charter group. They are recruiting as well as the nationalist all over the nation. Now, many are praising putin as the one they love right after their god like trump. Evidently, from some of the post here, not only do we nationalist in our mist but putin suck asses. I just don't understand why they sit their lazy asses in Democracies and don't go pick up a gun and fight for their leader. Oh, right, almost forgot, they are only brave behind a keyboard.

 

[Bob]

Things have changed, but a lot slower than many people think. People were still fighting over statues of confederate generals in 2020.

I was in Georgia when they lost their shit in 2001 and kicked the Governor out for removing the Confederate Battle Flag a.k.a. the Southern Cross from the state flag. The new governor replaced it with a near identical copy of the Confederate National Flag. This was the 21st century, not the 19th.

The constitution of the confederacy was very clear on its purpose to preserve slavery, but to this day you will still find plenty of people arguing that it was all about “states’ rights”.

I’m a gun guy, and I frequent gun forums. To say that the members are mostly trumpers is an understatement. I’m probably more exposed to veiled and not-so-veiled racism than the average people. They feel safe with their bullshit because on the internet they can’t tell I’m not white. I’m fairly certain that close to a quarter of Americans won’t have a problem if Trump kills democracy by preventing the certification of Biden’s election victory.

I don't know if anyone who wasn't there decades ago is able to say how fast or slowly things have changed. I know with certainty, from first hand experience, that American society has become markedly less racist with each generation for at least the last 50 years. As you mention, there is still some racist culture, but it's on the decline. Ideally it will continue to decline and we can have as color blind a society as possible.
I wouldn't take the Georgia state flag example as an accurate gauge of racism. The Confederate flag is used by some as a racist badge (like the cross) but by more as a mark of respect to ancestors and / or defiance of authority. After all, repelling invaders is a noble thing.
Which brings us to Russia and Ukraine. Like it or not, the good guys have their warts. Racial and religious bigotry is among those warts. We've seen the discrimination against non-white refugees and we've seen seen the greasing of bullets with lard to shoot at the Chechens fighting for Russia. That would not be tolerated in the US, even in the depths or darkest Louisiana or Massachusetts.

 

[Bob]

All the Southerners screeming about racism and how it't improved while the Northerners and fireigners are talking about nationalist and neonazi types. For our Southern posters, there is a really big difference between nationalist white supreamist and you average run of the mill racist. White nationalism has grown throughout the US and ever since trump gave them a voice, they have grown more. It isn't a Southern thing at all. It us a national cancer and those here supporting it are certainly part of that cancer.

White nationalist have combined with anti government groups. Many of them train in the north woods of WI, MN, and MI. Can't get much more North than that unless you're Canadian. I have seen the likes of the KKK recruiting in places like Dubuque, IA where they have a charter group. They are recruiting as well as the nationalist all over the nation. Now, many are praising putin as the one they love right after their god like trump. Evidently, from some of the post here, not only do we nationalist in our mist but putin suck asses. I just don't understand why they sit their lazy asses in Democracies and don't go pick up a gun and fight for their leader. Oh, right, almost forgot, they are only brave behind a keyboard.

Is anyone identified as a Southerner screaming, or advocating for Putin?

 

[Nimbus]

I don't know if anyone who wasn't there decades ago is able to say how fast or slowly things have changed. I know with certainty, from first hand experience, that American society has become markedly less racist with each generation for at least the last 50 years. As you mention, there is still some racist culture, but it's on the decline. Ideally it will continue to decline and we can have as color blind a society as possible.
I wouldn't take the Georgia state flag example as an accurate gauge of racism. The Confederate flag is used by some as a racist badge (like the cross) but by more as a mark of respect to ancestors and / or defiance of authority. After all, repelling invaders is a noble thing.
Which brings us to Russia and Ukraine. Like it or not, the good guys have their warts. Racial and religious bigotry is among those warts. We've seen the discrimination against non-white refugees and we've seen seen the greasing of bullets with lard to shoot at the Chechens fighting for Russia. That would not be tolerated in the US, even in the depths or darkest Louisiana or Massachusetts.

Your argument is that racism runs deeper in Eastern Europe and Ukraine than in USA. I find that questionable because it runs really deep in America too, all the way to the founding of the country, with a constitution that counted each black slave as 3/5 of a person.

I did say that things have changed, but if Russia’s lame excuse for invasion is accepted, then by that yardstick America deserves to be invaded too. Overt racism is no longer politically correct, and Americans deserve credit for that. However, covert racism is alive and well, and I have painful first hand experience of it.

You say lacing bullets with pig products to use against Muslims is not tolerated anywhere in USA? Close to half of Americans have no problem voting for a president praising that practice.

Trump Praises Fake Story About Shooting Muslims With Pig's Blood-Soaked Bullets

He repeated a false story that he often told on the campaign trail

time.com

It doesn’t take very long to find this gem:

This Anti-Islam Group Dips Bullets in Pig's Blood, Bacon Grease to Send Muslims to Hell

"Don't fuck with white people."

www.yahoo.com

 

[Bob]

Your argument is that racism runs deeper in Eastern Europe and Ukraine than in USA. I find that questionable because it runs really deep in America too, all the way to the founding of the country, with a constitution that counted each black slave as 3/5 of a person.

I did say that things have changed, but if Russia’s lame excuse for invasion is accepted, then by that yardstick America deserves to be invaded too. Overt racism is no longer politically correct, and Americans deserve credit for that. However, covert racism is alive and well, and I have painful first hand experience of it.

You say lacing bullets with pig products to use against Muslims is not tolerated anywhere in USA? Close to half of Americans have no problem voting for a president praising that practice.

Trump Praises Fake Story About Shooting Muslims With Pig's Blood-Soaked Bullets

He repeated a false story that he often told on the campaign trail

time.com

It doesn’t take very long to find this gem:

This Anti-Islam Group Dips Bullets in Pig's Blood, Bacon Grease to Send Muslims to Hell

"Don't fuck with white people."

www.yahoo.com

The comparison is between the US today and Ukraine / Eastern Europe today. So 1789 isn't really relevant.
I don't think many voted for Trump just because of that. I know people who voted for him, as they said, in spite of his idiotic comments because they thought the alternative was worse.
The bullet greasing and refugee mistreatment actually happened, this very year. As far as I know nothing similar has happened recently in or by the US and I don't believe either would happen.

 

[Nimbus]

The comparison is between the US today and Ukraine / Eastern Europe today. So 1789 isn't really relevant.
I don't think many voted for Trump just because of that. I know people who voted for him, as they said, in spite of his idiotic comments because they thought the alternative was worse.
The bullet greasing and refugee mistreatment actually happened, this very year. As far as I know nothing similar has happened recently in or by the US and I don't believe either would happen.

When you say ‘deep’ I take it to mean rooted in history. If that’s not what you’re trying to say, then by all means explain it.

As far as I know widespread institutional racism is not accepted in either Ukraine or USA today. In practice serious problems still exist. The Black Lives Matter protests are very recent, and in counter the black-white-blue Star Spangled Banner flags are still flying everywhere. Is that recent enough for you?

My brown-skinned wife is sidelined in her job because the new leadership in her job is a Trump-supporting Evangelical Christian, despite being highly praised and depended on by her previous boss. Is that recent enough for you?

I got nowhere in my latest job because the previous VP was a guy who forced the entire office to watch Fox News on company TVs, despite my saving the company literally millions of dollars annually for years. In the end I actually got a functional demotion. With the new VPs and new boss from Eastern Europe, I got a raise, a performance bonus, and slated for promotion in a single year. Is that recent enough for you?

I still believe America is one of the good guys in the grand scheme of things, but she’s far from perfect.

The widely criticized Azov battalion in Ukraine exists because of Russia’s actions in Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk. Putin celebrated the annexation of Crimea yesterday with a big event in Moscow. It is rich for him to invade when he created the issue to begin with.

As for Trump, people who think racism is a serious issue would see a lot of red flags that prevent them from voting for him. The list of reprehensible things he say and do is very long, including the “very fine people on both sides” when referring to the incident in Charlottesville where a Neo Nazi killed a counter protester. It’s easy for white voters who don’t stand on the wrong end of racism to think that Hillary’s email and Hunter Biden’s laptop as worse problems than everything Trump represents.

To its credit the U.S. military is a thoroughly professional organization that doesn’t tolerate soldiers using unapproved equipment, like lard on bullets. But, if you believe all individual U.S. soldiers are beyond doing it, I have a bridge to sell you. These guys invented the slur ‘hajji’ after all.

 

[atlantis]

We've seen the discrimination against non-white refugees and we've seen seen the greasing of bullets with lard to shoot at the Chechens fighting for Russia. That would not be tolerated in the US, even in the depths or darkest Louisiana or Massachusetts.

Are you sure of that?

South Fork Industries, which manufactures the Jihawg Ammo is certainly not the best selling ammo in the US, but I don't think you can say that it "would not be tolerated in the US, even in the depths or darkest Louisiana or Massachusetts".
For sure they appeal to a minority of nutcases and you probably should take with a pinch of salt the claim of the owner that they "have been inundated with orders for their custom cartridges", but Azov soldiers did not invent anything.

A research on Google would also show you that Jihawg Ammo is not the first or only US ammo company who has surfed on Islamophobia to find a market. Others did, and others will despite the fact that the majority of Americans would probably condemn it..

I know for certain that some of the french soldiers who served during the Algerian War of Independence were coating their bullets in pork blood or pork grease and were proud of letting anyone know about it, particularly the FLN (NLF in English) combattant.

Though I can't back it up (and can't be arsed to look for it) I would be very surprised if similar psychological warfare did not happen in the multiple armed conflicts in Irak, Afghanistan and Syria the past 30 years.
Reports also show that in a recent past some prominent western agencies didn't feel too compelled at endorsing doctrines of basic dignity and respect when conducting counter-terror operations.

My point is not to paint the US as bad. Just to answer your imho over optimistic statement about behaviors like the Azov greasing bullet which allegedly wouldn't be tolerated in the US.

 

[Bob]

When you say ‘deep’ I take it to mean rooted in history. If that’s not what you’re trying to say, then by all means explain it.

As far as I know widespread institutional racism is not accepted in either Ukraine or USA today. In practice serious problems still exist. The Black Lives Matter protests are very recent, and in counter the black-white-blue Star Spangled Banner flags are still flying everywhere. Is that recent enough for you?

My brown-skinned wife is sidelined in her job because the new leadership in her job is a Trump-supporting Evangelical Christian, despite being highly praised and depended on by her previous boss. Is that recent enough for you?

I got nowhere in my latest job because the previous VP was a guy who forced the entire office to watch Fox News on company TVs, despite my saving the company literally millions of dollars annually for years. In the end I actually got a functional demotion. With the new VPs and new boss from Eastern Europe, I got a raise, a performance bonus, and slated for promotion in a single year. Is that recent enough for you?

I still believe America is one of the good guys in the grand scheme of things, but she’s far from perfect.

The widely criticized Azov battalion in Ukraine exists because of Russia’s actions in Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk. Putin celebrated the annexation of Crimea yesterday with a big event in Moscow. It is rich for him to invade when he created the issue to begin with.

As for Trump, people who think racism is a serious issue would see a lot of red flags that prevent them from voting for him. The list of reprehensible things he say and do is very long, including the “very fine people on both sides” when referring to the incident in Charlottesville where a Neo Nazi killed a counter protester. It’s easy for white voters who don’t stand on the wrong end of racism to think that Hillary’s email and Hunter Biden’s laptop as worse problems than everything Trump represents.

To its credit the U.S. military is a thoroughly professional organization that doesn’t tolerate soldiers using unapproved equipment, like lard on bullets. But, if you believe all individual U.S. soldiers are beyond doing it, I have a bridge to sell you. These guys invented the slur ‘hajji’ after all.

Deep in that context refers to extent and not duration.
Ukraine's neo-Nazi troops are not their fault. Good one, but sure, if you say so. They do have neo-Nazi troops though. Nazis are generally a racism indicator.
The last few US presidential elections have been choices between the devil and the deep blue sea to phrase it politely. Trump's opponents also had serious flaws, other than emails and laptops. Many voted for their perception of the lesser of two evils rather than someone they really supported. Regarding Trump's comments on C'ville, if you read or watch them in their entirety you will see that he specifically excluded the neo-Nazis and other racists from his 'very fine people'.
I'm sorry that your wife apparently faces discrimination. And if your issues with your previous boss were due to racism that is unfortunate too.
After all that, in my view Ukraine's white supremacy issue is worse that the USA's.
If you'd like to discuss America's history or social issues I'd look forward to that, in another thread.

 

[Bob]

Are you sure of that?

South Fork Industries, which manufactures the Jihawg Ammo is certainly not the best selling ammo in the US, but I don't think you can say that it "would not be tolerated in the US, even in the depths or darkest Louisiana or Massachusetts".
For sure they appeal to a minority of nutcases and you probably should take with a pinch of salt the claim of the owner that they "have been inundated with orders for their custom cartridges", but Azov soldiers did not invent anything.

A research on Google would also show you that Jihawg Ammo is not the first or only US ammo company who has surfed on Islamophobia to find a market. Others did, and others will despite the fact that the majority of Americans would probably condemn it..

I know for certain that some of the french soldiers who served during the Algerian War of Independence were coating their bullets in pork blood or pork grease and were proud of letting anyone know about it, particularly the FLN (NLF in English) combattant.

Though I can't back it up (and can't be arsed to look for it) I would be very surprised if similar psychological warfare did not happen in the multiple armed conflicts in Irak, Afghanistan and Syria the past 30 years.
Reports also show that in a recent past some prominent western agencies didn't feel too compelled at endorsing doctrines of basic dignity and respect when conducting counter-terror operations.

They're not the US military though.

 

[atlantis]

They're not the US military though.

Yes sure. I was just answering your statements that it wouldn't be tolerated anywhere in the US, and that the bullet greasing "has (not) happened recently in or by the US", which weren't true.