Vaccine effectiveness and Herd Immunity

Hawk256

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If you think a thought experiment on simply whether you should kill more or fewer people is thought-provoking, then I guess you shouldn't be surprised by the responses people have to you on this forum.
I never said that. Either you agree or disagree that the trolley problem is relevant to the COVID discussion. If you think the Wikipedia reference it wrong, point it out them and submit your superior one. And no I'm not surprised by any of the responses.
 

dafluff

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I never said that. Either you agree or disagree that the trolley problem is relevant to the COVID discussion. If you think the Wikipedia reference it wrong, point it out them and submit your superior one. And no I'm not surprised by any of the responses.
I updated my post above to include specifically where the Wikipedia citation said it doesn't apply to a clinical setting.
 

Hawk256

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I updated my post above to include specifically where the Wikipedia citation said it doesn't apply to a clinical setting.
Are we in clinical setting? I get it, you don't think it's relevant. Your opinion is duly noted.
 

Hawk256

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Haha, keep moving that goal post.
How did I move the post? You didn't change my opinion. I just accepted yours. What do you propose at this point? Should the government go door to door and put everyone in jail that refuses the vaccine? What is your solution?
 

dafluff

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How did I move the post? You didn't change my opinion. I just accepted yours.
Moving the goalposts.

Also, I don't care to change your opinion.

What do you propose at this point? Should the government go door to door and put everyone in jail that refuses the vaccine? What is your solution?

I don't condone such drastic measures.

However, I do want to point out there has been precedent where someone whose body is deemed a health hazard has been locked up for the rest of their lives.

 

Hawk256

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Moving the goalposts.

Also, I don't care to change your opinion.



I don't condone such drastic measures.

However, I do want to point out there has been precedent where someone whose body is deemed a health hazard has been locked up for the rest of their lives.

Honestly, I still don't understand how I moved the goal posts but that is irrelevant. Sounds like we are on a different topic and maybe it needs new thread but it appears that the question now is Should to COVID 19 vaccine be mandatory and what measures are we willing to take to gain compliance?
 

HappyMan

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Like I stated in the other reply. Paying taxes does not increase the possibility of health problems or death. And actually no one forces you to pay taxes, you have the option of running and hiding or going to jail.
Let's just change that around to reflect humane priorities; "failure to pay taxes does not increase the possibility of infecting your neighbors with a deadly virus". Yeah, I'd agree, refusing the vaccine is worse than refusing to pay taxes.
At least people who don't want to pay taxes can say they are working in their own best interest...
Not sure what you are on about with the "no one forces you to pay taxes" bit. I said "coerce, bully, and shame", which I took from you, and the threat of a prison sentence ticks all three boxes.
 

El_Goretto

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If you think a thought experiment on simply whether you should kill more or fewer people is thought-provoking, then I guess you shouldn't be surprised by the responses people have to you on this forum.

Also, if you read the Wikipedia article you cited, and go to the citation for the Covid section, you will find the paper on bioethics.net where you'll find this:



It goes on to flesh the argument, which you should probably read. Or not, since you have consistently been ignoring pretty much all evidence to bloviate about some other crap you think is clever.

And it is also widely regarded that stopping the use of the vaccine due to concerns for 3 deaths in 1. 6 million people was highly irresponsible and contributed to the vaccine hesitency which itself has already led to far more death (see multiple reports from doctors with dying covid patients begging for the vaccine when it's already too late).

Frankly, this AZ blood clot debacle was politically motivated and nothing more.
 

dafluff

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Honestly, I still don't understand how I moved the goal posts but that is irrelevant.
It's ok man, don't worry about it.

Sounds like we are on a different topic and maybe it needs new thread but it appears that the question now is Should to COVID 19 vaccine be mandatory and what measures are we willing to take to gain compliance?

Technically, the vaccine is already mandatory in Indonesia, with the penalty being denial to access government services, and also a fine. However, it is not yet enforced. It remains to be seen if it ever will. Also access the government services may not be a concern for many Indonesians, but for foreigners eventually, they will have to go to Imigrasi.

Other governments will probably make the vaccines mandatory also, to varying degrees as allowed by their laws. For sure, many will (or already) require them for entry to their countries by foreigners.

However, I think it will be too late for many. The Delta variant has shown to be very effective in transmission and eventually it will infect enough people and the survivors will have natural immunity. Unfortunately, this will come at a cost of many lives. While I have some admiration for people sticking to their anti-vaccine guns at their own risk, many of the victims will be among those who a) did not voluntarily choose not to vaccinate, b) those for whom vaccines may not work due to their immune system and c) who couldn't get medical service for non-Covid reasons because hospitals are full with Covid patients.
 
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Hawk256

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However, I think it will be too late for many. The Delta variant has shown to be very effective in transmission and eventually it will infect enough people and the survivors will have natural immunity. Unfortunately, this will come at a cost of many lives. While I have some admiration for people sticking to their anti-vaccine guns at their own risk, many of the victims will be among those who a) did not voluntarily choose not to vaccinate, b) those for whom vaccines may not work due to their immune system and c) who couldn't get medical service for non-Covid reasons because hospitals are full with Covid patients.
This, I agree with you 100%. Vaccine supplies are extremely low in in Indonesia right now and a lot of people that want one are unable to get it for that reason or another. If you want the vaccine or have no objection to taking the vaccine, you should absolutely take it as soon as you can but that's where I draw the line. At least Indonesia has the Sinovac available to people that object to the others. Not everyone has that choice.
 

dafluff

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On a personal note, while it's all fun and games to argue about hypotheticals on the internet, back in the real world, I just transferred some condolences money to my uncle's brother-in-law's family. The BIL died last night after coughing up blood and was previously isolating at home due to Covid. Ironically, he was the one in his family with the mildest symptoms and could isolate at home, that is until the hemoptysis, and showing up at the hospital with a blood oxygen saturation in the 50s. His wife and 2 children were already hospitalized for Covid, and the wife is in critical condition, and last I heard couldn't get an ICU room.
 

nd_eric_77

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On a personal note, while it's all fun and games to argue about hypotheticals on the internet, back in the real world, I just transferred some condolences money to my uncle's brother-in-law's family. The BIL died last night after coughing up blood and was previously isolating at home due to Covid. Ironically, he was the one in his family with the mildest symptoms and could isolate at home, that is until the hemoptysis, and showing up at the hospital with a blood oxygen saturation in the 50s. His wife and 2 children were already hospitalized for Covid, and the wife is in critical condition, and last I heard couldn't get an ICU room.
Very sorry to hear that. The current wave of Covid seems to be hitting far more entire families than previous ones did.
 

fastpitch17

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Very sorry to hear that. The current wave of Covid seems to be hitting far more entire families than previous ones did.
With all this, send them home to fend for themselves, that is exactly what is going to happen. The infected are just going to push it onto everyone in the house. They really have no concept of what isolation actually is and in many homes, impossible to do. Basic rules of sanitation that we foreigners learn from childhood just are not the same here.
 

Balifrog

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Very sorry to hear that. The current wave of Covid seems to be hitting far more entire families than previous ones did.
Sadly, and it is very seldom mentionned by official medias, the family circle is probably the main "hub" of infection.
Specially in rural societies where 2 or 3 generations live under the same roof.

I hear from the Missus that there are at the moment more deaths than usual in the "jungle village", and we can reasonibly think that a part of them are linked (directly or through comorbidities) to Covid.
But sure they never arrive on the official stats.
 

Nimbus

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On a personal note, while it's all fun and games to argue about hypotheticals on the internet, back in the real world, I just transferred some condolences money to my uncle's brother-in-law's family. The BIL died last night after coughing up blood and was previously isolating at home due to Covid. Ironically, he was the one in his family with the mildest symptoms and could isolate at home, that is until the hemoptysis, and showing up at the hospital with a blood oxygen saturation in the 50s. His wife and 2 children were already hospitalized for Covid, and the wife is in critical condition, and last I heard couldn't get an ICU room.
My cousin and her family are self isolating, and last I heard her condition was so severe that she lost the will to live. A doctor relative wrote a prescription (and we sent the money to fill it), and another relative with access to oxygen tanks sent a couple over. I hope that I don’t have to hear the bad news, but there’s nothing more that we can do beyond offering words of encouragement.
 

dafluff

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On a personal note, while it's all fun and games to argue about hypotheticals on the internet, back in the real world, I just transferred some condolences money to my uncle's brother-in-law's family. The BIL died last night after coughing up blood and was previously isolating at home due to Covid. Ironically, he was the one in his family with the mildest symptoms and could isolate at home, that is until the hemoptysis, and showing up at the hospital with a blood oxygen saturation in the 50s. His wife and 2 children were already hospitalized for Covid, and the wife is in critical condition, and last I heard couldn't get an ICU room.
Just got the news that the wife has also passed...
 

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