Trump Indicted for Conspiracy To Change the 2020 Election

[Nimbus]

Let's be clear that just like most BLM protests were peaceful, most interactions with law enforcement are fair for everyone involved. Even if a bad one happened once per month, that is a very small number compared to the sheer number of police interactions people have daily. Of course even one is too many but there is no such thing as a perfect system.

Agree. Yet 40ish % of Americans see the imperfect police as good but the imperfect BLM as bad.

 

[Nimbus]

I laugh and sigh everytime I see one of those bandaged legs on someone arrested. It is always associated with the suspect attempting to escape. So many times I have to wonder just how the red blood spot on the bandage ends up in the front of the leg when they were trying to flee. Were they running at the officers? The dead ones were either resisting arrest or were in a shootout. Never wounded and gave up.

It’s a time honored tradition from Suharto’s time. There’s an interesting procedure in Indonesia’s police investigation protocol called ‘rekonstruksi’, where the perp is taken to the scene of the crime and forced to simulate his offense. When they refused to cooperate, the newspapers often reported the next day that a suspect was shot during an attempt to escape from the rekonstruksi.

We like to joke that Indonesian Police are very accurate when it comes to shooting fleeing suspects, but not so with active criminals on the street.

 

[Hawk256]

Agree. Yet 40ish % of Americans see the imperfect police as good but the imperfect BLM as bad.

I guess you could argue either way depending on your views but BLM exists on the concept that the police are bad and are racist (along with the majority of Americans) which doesn't tell the whole story. Rioting, looting and burning aren't a good look for any movement and arguably BLM has more than it's fair share of those activities. Back to the orginal topic and the reason for comparison with BLM is that people criticize the crowd at the capital while celebrating BLM and put the blame on the woman getting shot by Capitol Police directly on her without admitting that many (if not all) police interactions would have not resulted in death if the person had complied with police. You don't cross the road without looking both ways and it's not the law. You also don't get killed when you are complying with the police. Common sense and decency goes a long way whether you are wrong or not.

 

[Bob]

Nobody.

It seems like you were never part of a movement? Not even the Tea Party?

I was part of the Reformasi movement that eventually pushed Suharto to resign back in 1998. Those who supported the movement were fed up by his corruption and especially alarmed by his attempt to create a dynasty by installing his daughter as a minister. Along with thousands of students, I was in the parliament complex the day he stepped down.

There was no shot caller. There were several loosely affiliated organizations, but nobody had the authority to order anybody around. There wasn’t even membership and dues.

One of the worst excesses of the movement, and part of the expression of people’s anger was the riots in May 1998. Did somebody from the movement tell people to loot & burn half of Jakarta and kill hundreds? No. Did we want it? Hell no. We tried to stop it, but nobody listened.

It's more accurate to say their leaders have at times disagreed, which is normal, rather than that nobody calls their shots. They do have leadership.
Tea Party? That's catty. I support and have supported movements, and I vett and monitor their goals and leadership.

 

[R Cameron]

many (if not all) police interactions would have not resulted in death if the person had complied with police ... You also don't get killed when you are complying with the police.

Tamir Rice, Breonna Taylor, John Crawford, Daniel Shaver, Andre Hill, Atatiana Jefferson.

The list is huge of unarmed black people killed by police in America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States

Many of those cases do have debatable elements and lack of compliance, but the names I mentioned above had no opportunity to comply before being murdered. These, and many more similar, prove your point very clearly wrong.

 

[Hawk256]

Tamir Rice, Breonna Taylor, John Crawford, Daniel Shaver, Andre Hill, Atatiana Jefferson.

The list is huge of unarmed black people killed by police in America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States

Many of those cases do have debatable elements and lack of compliance, but the names I mentioned above had no opportunity to comply before being murdered. These, and many more similar, prove your point very clearly wrong.

But there are other circumstances involved in those cases. It's not like the police just decided to go out and kill someone that day. Breonna Taylor for one example was caught in an search warrant operation gone bad and her boyfried did have a lot of the responsibility in that case. Do you think that the police in the US are just out to murder blacks? If that's the case, there should be much more violence than there is. You don't hear about the cases where white men were killed by police. The media doesn't cover them. So it looks more one sided than it actually is. To be clear, no one should be killed unless they are a threat to the safety of police or others and a lot of these cases are debatable whether or not the police determined correctly in the heat of the moment. As an officer you have seconds to make a decision, think too long an you or someone else are dead. If you have never been an officer or a soldier, you have no idea how difficult their job is. I worked for the police for year as a dispatcher. I never went out on the road but I know everything that went on. It's a dangerous, thankless job.

 

[Hawk256]

Somewhere around double the amout of white men are shot by the police than black men. Is race really the motivator that they want you to believe it is?

People shot to death by U.S. police, by race 2024 | Statista

The trend of fatal police shootings in the U.S. seems to only be increasing each year, with Black civilians having the highest rates of being killed by police.

www.statista.com

 

[Nimbus]

I guess you could argue either way depending on your views but BLM exists on the concept that the police are bad and are racist (along with the majority of Americans) which doesn't tell the whole story. Rioting, looting and burning aren't a good look for any movement and arguably BLM has more than it's fair share of those activities. Back to the orginal topic and the reason for comparison with BLM is that people criticize the crowd at the capital while celebrating BLM and put the blame on the woman getting shot by Capitol Police directly on her without admitting that many (if not all) police interactions would have not resulted in death if the person had complied with police. You don't cross the road without looking both ways and it's not the law. You also don't get killed when you are complying with the police. Common sense and decency goes a long way whether you are wrong or not.

People celebrate the BLM because they are imperfect but they are basically good, because they’re about bringing increased accountability to the police. Very few police officers got in jail for unjustified killing, at most they were just fired, then they would find a job with the neighboring PD. If BLM thinks that all cops are irredeemably bad, they would have sought to abolish the police. Instead they ask to simply defund it.

The January 6th crowd seek to stop the constitutional process that certifies the fair and free election. They seek to overturn the constitution and the government, replacing this constitutional republic with a Trump dictatorship. Which part of this movement qualifies as good?

How can you equate a movement seeking police accountability with a movement seeking to overturn a constitutional process?

The vast majority of police interaction goes well, but there were disturbingly increasing number of cases where you got killed even when you did nothing wrong. The majority of victims in these cases are not white.

I have real interest in gun related topics, so I watch many youtube video where licensed carriers had a positive interaction with the police, but of course most of them are white. This makes the case of Philando Castile hit especially hard. This was a black guy licensed to carry, who did nothing wrong and shot simply because the cop was nervous.

Killing of Philando Castile - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now comes the part that’s gonna rile liberals.

American black people do have cultural problems. A large number of them in the cities glorify “thug life” through rap music. They bear most (but not all) of the responsibility for that. I say “not all” due to the long history of slavery and discrimination that partly created the culture to begin with. Liberals like to quote the statistics of higher percentage of black people arrested compared to their percentage of the population, as proof that the justice system is discriminatory. I say the reality is more complicated. Most of the crimes I personally witnessed were committed by black people. In many places more of them are arrested simply because more of them commit crimes.

I understand why many cops can’t resist being discriminatory. If the majority of the criminals they encounter are black, then it can easily form a prejudice.

The thing is, the vast majority of black people are good and law abiding citizens who just want to live their life without getting shot. Despite my personal experience, I understand that I must not be prejudiced, that I must not allow the action of the few to color my judgment of the many. I fully expect the police to do the same.

We need to stop thinking that 19 terrorists represent (and justify prejudice against) 1 billion people.

 

[Nimbus]

Somewhere around double the amout of white men are shot by the police than black men. Is race really the motivator that they want you to believe it is?

People shot to death by U.S. police, by race 2024 | Statista

The trend of fatal police shootings in the U.S. seems to only be increasing each year, with Black civilians having the highest rates of being killed by police.

www.statista.com

I think you should be careful with numbers unless you have a decent grasp of statistics. You think these numbers prove your point?

Let me add one number: 12%. Black people make up 12% of the population, so about 1 in 8.

You’re telling me 1 out of 3 people shot is black, while they only make up 1 out of 8 people?

 

[centurion]

People celebrate the BLM because they are imperfect but they are basically good, because they’re about bringing increased accountability to the police. Very few police officers got in jail for unjustified killing, at most they were just fired, then they would find a job with the neighboring PD. If BLM thinks that all cops are irredeemably bad, they would have sought to abolish the police. Instead they ask to simply defund it.

The January 6th crowd seek to stop the constitutional process that certifies the fair and free election. They seek to overturn the constitution and the government, replacing this constitutional republic with a Trump dictatorship. Which part of this movement qualifies as good?

How can you equate a movement seeking police accountability with a movement seeking to overturn a constitutional process?

Now comes the part that’s gonna rile liberals.

The liberals would say that for this thoughts, as South-East Asian, your have a proximity to the Whiteness, and that you should be re-educated in the nearest DIE camp.

 

[Bob]

I think you should be careful with numbers unless you have a decent grasp of statistics. You think these numbers prove your point?

Let me add one number: 12%. Black people make up 12% of the population, so about 1 in 8.

You’re telling me 1 out of 3 people shot is black, while they only make up 1 out of 8 people?

Statistics, including crime and poverty demographics. Black males tend to live in low income, high crime areas, and commit a disproportionate number of crimes. The reasons for that don't reflect very well on the US but that's another discussion. Police are much more likely to interact with blacks than with whites while seeking, confronting, or arresting suspects, which is when such shootings occur. There's surely a racial component to some of the shootings but there's nothing I've seen to indicate that police intentionally target black people. The US has a large problem with police shooting people of all creeds and colors.

 

[Pak Tani]

People celebrate the BLM because they are imperfect but they are basically good, because they’re about bringing increased accountability to the police. Very few police officers got in jail for unjustified killing, at most they were just fired, then they would find a job with the neighboring PD. If BLM thinks that all cops are irredeemably bad, they would have sought to abolish the police. Instead they ask to simply defund it.

If a different group of people would strive against police brutality against white men, would you say that this group is 'basically good' also?

Still, I can't wrap my head around their demand for defunding the police departments and thereby forcing them to slash their budgets. And I don't understand why you seem to defend (downplay) it. How would an even more dysfunctional police department ever be beneficial to the crime-ridden black community? Also, withholding funds from the police is not a condition for demanding more investment in the black community, they can simply demand more investments in the afro-american community without defunding the police. Besides that, funds transferred from the police to invest in the community take many years to have an effect (if ever), what do they intend to do in these years against the additional problems that a lack of police brings?
To me, BLM smells like NWA with their F*ck Tha Police (as a young petani, I must have played that song 1.000 times, haha), they are united angry activists who are unable to solve the problems inside their community and blame that on others.
I wonder if Martin Luther King could ever have become such a leader as he did at a time like this. People now seem so extreme and focused on themselves that they probably wouldn't even hear him. America needs someone like him who builds bridges, not people who play identity politics.

I think Americans have a problem with dividing people into groups, smaller and smaller. Look at Hawk256's post #67 on how police brutality (killings) is a problem for all people of all races and colors, not only blacks.
The problem is that a (small) minority of police officers are just not 'profesional', they are incompetent, racist, or unfit for whatever reason. Instead of defunding the police, I have some ideas that may sound a bit controversial, but let me know what you think. In the US the average police training takes 22 weeks. In Germany for instance it takes 2 years, in Finland 2,5 years. In other countries maybe less, but that 22 weeks course in the US is just short compared to many European countries. So, better training could be a good start for new officers and extra training for others. Better gear that offers more physical protection for officers so they can feel more safe on the street. More officers in general so they can divide the workload, have better response times, and more focus on de-escalation and positive interaction with the community. Higher pay so they can attract better personnel and weed out the unfit. More discipline and harsher punishments for officers who behave badly (not 'profesional').

This, however, is going to need extra funds.

 

[Bob]

If a different group of people would strive against police brutality against white men, would you say that this group is 'basically good' also?

Still, I can't wrap my head around their demand for defunding the police departments and thereby forcing them to slash their budgets. And I don't understand why you seem to defend (downplay) it. How would an even more dysfunctional police department ever be beneficial to the crime-ridden black community? Also, withholding funds from the police is not a condition for demanding more investment in the black community, they can simply demand more investments in the afro-american community without defunding the police. Besides that, funds transferred from the police to invest in the community take many years to have an effect (if ever), what do they intend to do in these years against the additional problems that a lack of police brings?
To me, BLM smells like NWA with their F*ck Tha Police (as a young petani, I must have played that song 1.000 times, haha), they are united angry activists who are unable to solve the problems inside their community and blame that on others.
I wonder if Martin Luther King could ever have become such a leader as he did at a time like this. People now seem so extreme and focused on themselves that they probably wouldn't even hear him. America needs someone like him who builds bridges, not people who play identity politics.

I think Americans have a problem with dividing people into groups, smaller and smaller. Look at Hawk256's post #67 on how police brutality (killings) is a problem for all people of all races and colors, not only blacks.
The problem is that a (small) minority of police officers are just not 'profesional', they are incompetent, racist, or unfit for whatever reason. Instead of defunding the police, I have some ideas that may sound a bit controversial, but let me know what you think. In the US the average police training takes 22 weeks. In Germany for instance it takes 2 years, in Finland 2,5 years. In other countries maybe less, but that 22 weeks course in the US is just short compared to many European countries. So, better training could be a good start for new officers and extra training for others. Better gear that offers more physical protection for officers so they can feel more safe on the street. More officers in general so they can divide the workload, have better response times, and more focus on de-escalation and positive interaction with the community. Higher pay so they can attract better personnel and weed out the unfit. More discipline and harsher punishments for officers who behave badly (not 'profesional').

This, however, is going to need extra funds.

Extra funds or they can give up an APC or two.
Walking a beat would help too; get to know the citizenry face to face. A lot of local departments don't get out of their cars if they can at all help it.

 

[Hawk256]

I think you should be careful with numbers unless you have a decent grasp of statistics. You think these numbers prove your point?

Let me add one number: 12%. Black people make up 12% of the population, so about 1 in 8.

You’re telling me 1 out of 3 people shot is black, while they only make up 1 out of 8 people?

Maybe I'm not the one that doesn't have a grasp of statistics. It's a really simple answer but most people don't like to say it. Blacks commit more crimes for their percentage in society than white people do. They also live in higher crime areas and more apt to come accross the police. Sorry, but I can't change the facts.

 

[R Cameron]

Do you think that the police in the US are just out to murder blacks? If that's the case, there should be much more violence than there is.

Of course it is not that simple, but the causes still come back to systemic racism. Would the judge have issued that no-knock warrant for Breonna Taylor's apartment without triple-checking every detail if it were an address in a "rich white neighborhood"? I think not.

Police are allowed to use deadly force whenever they "fear for their life" with very little scrutiny given to whether their fear was unreasonable or racist. The criminal justice system is systemically racist in a way that trains (explicitly and implicitly) police to be more fearful of black men.

You don't hear about the cases where white men were killed by police. The media doesn't cover them. So it looks more one sided than it actually is.

It is both a race and a class issue. See if you can find the income statistics for those white men killed by police. If a "Poor Lives Matter" movement started opposing systemic oppression and police violence, I would support them too.

 

[R Cameron]

Maybe I'm not the one that doesn't have a grasp of statistics. It's a really simple answer but most people don't like to say it. Blacks commit more crimes for their percentage in society than white people do.

That is utter BS, you are citing crimes convicted not crimes committed, no one knows accurately the true numbers committed because blacks are 7 times more likely to be falsely convicted (source). and black neighborhoods are disproportionately policed causing higher percentage of crimes committed to be convicted (source). Blacks also receive much longer sentences for the same crimes (source), another perpetuating aspect of the systemic racism in the US criminal justice system.

 

[Nimbus]

Statistics, including crime and poverty demographics. Black males tend to live in low income, high crime areas, and commit a disproportionate number of crimes. The reasons for that don't reflect very well on the US but that's another discussion. Police are much more likely to interact with blacks than with whites while seeking, confronting, or arresting suspects, which is when such shootings occur. There's surely a racial component to some of the shootings but there's nothing I've seen to indicate that police intentionally target black people. The US has a large problem with police shooting people of all creeds and colors.

Police as an institution don’t target blacks, but they have done a poor job policing bad racist cops among them. People know mistakes happen and nobody’s perfect, but when the officers concerned routinely get off with just a suspension or job termination, it becomes a problem.

The court with its “qualified immunity” doctrine for the police is another set of problem. The officer who shot Philando Castile was acquitted of all charges and was simply fired.

 

[Nimbus]

Maybe I'm not the one that doesn't have a grasp of statistics. It's a really simple answer but most people don't like to say it. Blacks commit more crimes for their percentage in society than white people do. They also live in higher crime areas and more apt to come accross the police. Sorry, but I can't change the facts.

But you presented 2 whites vs 1 blacks shot as proof that the police weren’t targeting black people. When that was refuted you moved the goalpost.

 

[Nimbus]

If a different group of people would strive against police brutality against white men, would you say that this group is 'basically good' also?

Yes. However, the January 6th crowd that was brought as comparison was no such thing.

Still, I can't wrap my head around their demand for defunding the police departments and thereby forcing them to slash their budgets. And I don't understand why you seem to defend (downplay) it. How would an even more dysfunctional police department ever be beneficial to the crime-ridden black community? Also, withholding funds from the police is not a condition for demanding more investment in the black community, they can simply demand more investments in the afro-american community without defunding the police. Besides that, funds transferred from the police to invest in the community take many years to have an effect (if ever), what do they intend to do in these years against the additional problems that a lack of police brings?
To me, BLM smells like NWA with their F*ck Tha Police (as a young petani, I must have played that song 1.000 times, haha), they are united angry activists who are unable to solve the problems inside their community and blame that on others.
I wonder if Martin Luther King could ever have become such a leader as he did at a time like this. People now seem so extreme and focused on themselves that they probably wouldn't even hear him. America needs someone like him who builds bridges, not people who play identity politics.

I think Americans have a problem with dividing people into groups, smaller and smaller. Look at Hawk256's post #67 on how police brutality (killings) is a problem for all people of all races and colors, not only blacks.
The problem is that a (small) minority of police officers are just not 'profesional', they are incompetent, racist, or unfit for whatever reason. Instead of defunding the police, I have some ideas that may sound a bit controversial, but let me know what you think. In the US the average police training takes 22 weeks. In Germany for instance it takes 2 years, in Finland 2,5 years. In other countries maybe less, but that 22 weeks course in the US is just short compared to many European countries. So, better training could be a good start for new officers and extra training for others. Better gear that offers more physical protection for officers so they can feel more safe on the street. More officers in general so they can divide the workload, have better response times, and more focus on de-escalation and positive interaction with the community. Higher pay so they can attract better personnel and weed out the unfit. More discipline and harsher punishments for officers who behave badly (not 'profesional').

This, however, is going to need extra funds.

Like I said, I don’t necessarily agree with the defunding slogan, but I understand where it comes from. Less funding for military gear, more funding for training and community policing. The Republican party has made it essentially impossible to increase funding for social programs after Trump’s permanent tax cut for the wealthy and temporary tax cut for everybody else. This means additional funding for your proposed programs must come at the expense of something else.

I agree that in some cities the crowd that makes up the BLM movement are angry activists. Police departments vary in quality, so that can also be a reason.

I’m not ideological, so I see both sides. The crowd that makes up BLM aren’t all boy scouts. Some looting and riots happened. Unlike liberals I don’t think they are all simple victims of circumstances; personal accountability still matters. Unlike conservatives I don’t think BLM is all thugs and the police is all heroes.

 

[Nimbus]

That is utter BS, you are citing crimes convicted not crimes committed, no one knows accurately the true numbers committed because blacks are 7 times more likely to be falsely convicted (source). and black neighborhoods are disproportionately policed causing higher percentage of crimes committed to be convicted (source). Blacks also receive much longer sentences for the same crimes (source), another perpetuating aspect of the systemic racism in the US criminal justice system.

It’s not straightforward to say whether empirically black people commit more crimes than others because of the systemic issues you pointed out. However, anecdotal evidence from this one person confirm it. I wish I didn’t see and experience it, but I did.

Several years ago the local newspaper was reporting every single shooting incident in the city. They would give the approximate street address, then I plot it on Google Maps. Most of the shootings happened in black neighborhoods. I took interest because my daughter’s dance school was located at the edge of the neighborhood.

I think it’s important to recognize that both black community and the police have problems. It’s unfortunate that politics make it nearly impossible to acknowledge both.