Trump Indicted for Conspiracy To Change the 2020 Election

[Hawk256]

But you presented 2 whites vs 1 blacks shot as proof that the police weren’t targeting black people. When that was refuted you moved the goalpost.

How did I move the goal post? I knew that would be the next arguement, it always is. Both are facts, you just don't like them or what they actually say. I didn't make them up or exagerate them. In science we have to use facts other things can allow room for opinions. I grew up in the South and I have never met anyone that is out to get blacks except 1 person who was actully in the KKK. Does that mean they don't exist? No but it also means they aren't lurking around every corner like some people want to believe. Systemic racism is a load and there are many blacks that will tell you that.

 

[R Cameron]

I think it’s important to recognize that both black community and the police have problems. It’s unfortunate that politics make it nearly impossible to acknowledge both.

Do you think most on "the left" in America don't acknowledge problems in the black community? I disagree.

But, it's like a principal having a bully in their office, who then breaks down crying explaining the abuse they receive at home. It doesn't excuse their actions, and some consequences are likely still in order, but it should come with empathy, mercy, and assistance to end the abuse and seek a better future.

Both have problems. Black people receive fear, suspicion, vitriol, and 20 years in prison for marijuana possession. Police receive parades, authority, immunity, and paid time off when they get caught roughing up a black man.

 

[Nimbus]

How did I move the goal post? I knew that would be the next arguement, it always is. Both are facts, you just don't like them or what they actually say. I didn't make them up or exagerate them. In science we have to use facts other things can allow room for opinions. I grew up in the South and I have never met anyone that is out to get blacks except 1 person who was actully in the KKK. Does that mean they don't exist? No but it also means they aren't lurking around every corner like some people want to believe. Systemic racism is a load and there are many blacks that will tell you that.

That’s ok, we all got caught flat footed once in a while, just move on.

Now, about your new goalpost: I actually agree that in cities there are typically more crimes committed by black people. However, it never justifies prejudice.

Do you seriously think that unless you’re in KKK that you can’t be prejudiced against blacks?

When a company promotes a white man while a more qualified black man is available, that’s racism. When a contractor quotes a higher price to a black family, that’s racism. When a cop bends over backward to tolerate an unruly white guy but shoots a black guy for the same behavior, that’s racism.

Just because you personally never experience it doesn’t mean it never happens. As a non-bule, I have never received bule tax in Indonesia. Does that mean I can confidently say that it doesn’t exist?

Now, the concept of systemic racism, just like systemic poverty, is a bit harder to understand, especially if you have never been a victim of it.

We all agree that every person should have equal opportunity (different from equal income), it’s called meritocracy. The problem in USA is there are many systems working against it, whether intentionally or unintentionally. One such system is the public schools. Funding comes mostly from local tax, so poorer communities usually have poorer school districts, thus poor performing schools. Most minorities live in these districts, so their kids have limited opportunities through no fault of their own. Poor schools lead to minimum wage dead end jobs, which creates poorer families, and the cycle continues. As if it isn’t bad enough, this system is perpetuated through zoning law, where certain zones can only have lots of a certain size or larger (like 40,000 sqft and up). Of course only richer (usually white) people can afford to live there, so the corresponding school district is also a rich one. This is all called systemic racism, although I prefer to see it as systemic classism / systemic poverty.

Today it’s debatable whether this systemic racism is intentional. What’s not debatable is the effect. Unless you live under a rock, you know the effect of good public schools vs bad public schools. It’s also patently obvious where most of the minority kids are assigned to.

In the old days systemic racism was more blatant, like the (impossibly difficult) literacy test for voting, that was waived if you were white. Thankfully this one is illegal today.

 

[Bob]

Of course it is not that simple, but the causes still come back to systemic racism. Would the judge have issued that no-knock warrant for Breonna Taylor's apartment without triple-checking every detail if it were an address in a "rich white neighborhood"? I think not.

Police are allowed to use deadly force whenever they "fear for their life" with very little scrutiny given to whether their fear was unreasonable or racist. The criminal justice system is systemically racist in a way that trains (explicitly and implicitly) police to be more fearful of black men.


It is both a race and a class issue. See if you can find the income statistics for those white men killed by police. If a "Poor Lives Matter" movement started opposing systemic oppression and police violence, I would support them too.

You said systemic racism and then laid out a case for classism.

 

[Bob]

That is utter BS, you are citing crimes convicted not crimes committed, no one knows accurately the true numbers committed because blacks are 7 times more likely to be falsely convicted (source). and black neighborhoods are disproportionately policed causing higher percentage of crimes committed to be convicted (source). Blacks also receive much longer sentences for the same crimes (source), another perpetuating aspect of the systemic racism in the US criminal justice system.

It's not BS that blacks have a much higher crime rate than other demographics in the US. Why do you think black neighborhoods are disproportionately policed? Could it be because there's disproportionately more crime there?
It's better to work with facts and not emotions or prejudices.

 

[Bob]

Police as an institution don’t target blacks, but they have done a poor job policing bad racist cops among them. People know mistakes happen and nobody’s perfect, but when the officers concerned routinely get off with just a suspension or job termination, it becomes a problem.

The court with its “qualified immunity” doctrine for the police is another set of problem. The officer who shot Philando Castile was acquitted of all charges and was simply fired.

That's true, and it's a serious problem.

 

[Nimbus]

Do you think most on "the left" in America don't acknowledge problems in the black community? I disagree.

I live in NJ now, one of the most progressive states. I can’t even say that certain areas or townships are “crime prone” or “rough” without somebody gently mentioning that it’s probably not politically correct. Why? Because they’re black neighborhoods.

I was considering moving into a town because the apartment prices are considerably lower for the same quality. My colleagues and the agent hired for the search gently nudged me away from the area without saying much. Only later did I find that it was a predominantly black neighborhood.

The taboo is real. There’s no way I can even mention the concept that black communities have a crime problem, let alone discuss them.

But, it's like a principal having a bully in their office, who then breaks down crying explaining the abuse they receive at home. It doesn't excuse their actions, and some consequences are likely still in order, but it should come with empathy, mercy, and assistance to end the abuse and seek a better future.

Sure, but the American justice system is largely not geared for rehabilitation, only punishment. Once in prison you’re treated equally, that is equally bad. Private prison industry and the rest is a subject of its own.

Both have problems. Black people receive fear, suspicion, vitriol, and 20 years in prison for marijuana possession. Police receive parades, authority, immunity, and paid time off when they get caught roughing up a black man.

Yes, a large number of black people got jailed for a long time for simple MJ possession. It’s also true that a good number of them are in for more serious crimes.

The guy who ran out of the store with a dozen of expensive clothes when I walked in was black. The guy who shot my local Indian gas station attendant dead was black. I can go on but I’d rather not.

As for the police, I agree that they need more accountability. They can’t keep doing “we investigated ourselves and found nothing wrong.”

 

[Bob]

Yes. However, the January 6th crowd that was brought as comparison was no such thing.


Like I said, I don’t necessarily agree with the defunding slogan, but I understand where it comes from. Less funding for military gear, more funding for training and community policing. The Republican party has made it essentially impossible to increase funding for social programs after Trump’s permanent tax cut for the wealthy and temporary tax cut for everybody else. This means additional funding for your proposed programs must come at the expense of something else.

I agree that in some cities the crowd that makes up the BLM movement are angry activists. Police departments vary in quality, so that can also be a reason.

I’m not ideological, so I see both sides. The crowd that makes up BLM aren’t all boy scouts. Some looting and riots happened. Unlike liberals I don’t think they are all simple victims of circumstances; personal accountability still matters. Unlike conservatives I don’t think BLM is all thugs and the police is all heroes.

Defunding means to stop providing funds. It doesn't mean to reduce funding. It's disingenuous to later claim 'oh we meant to cut the budget, not eliminate it'. 'Defund the police' was a ludicrous demand that pushed reasonable people away from BLM.
They could have called for demilitarizing, reforming, redirecting, delethalizing, socializing, etc. but they called for defunding, which really brings their end game into question.

 

[R Cameron]

It's better to work with facts and not emotions or prejudices.

I agree, which is why I cited sources, something I don't see you doing.

 

[R Cameron]

You said systemic racism and then laid out a case for classism.

They are deeply intertwined, with a lot of racism at the heart of systemic economic oppression. From slavery to red-lining as big, obvious, formal systems, and continuing into the modern day with more subtlety, like in the sources I just provided.

 

[Bob]

I agree, which is why I cited sources, something I don't see you doing.

Those sources don't change the reality.

 

[Hawk256]

When a company promotes a white man while a more qualified black man is available, that’s racism.

I can't tell you what happens to other people but I can tell you what happend to me,. Quite a few years ago there was a big promotion opening in the company I worked for. I was a shoe in for that position but HR decided that Affirmative Action was necessary and hired an outside black person. My boss and the regional boss both said they wanted to give me the position but HR needed "some color" in engineering even though my qualifications far outclassed his. Does that sound fair to you? Happened a lot and still does to this day. The guy lasted six months until he decided to buy drugs in a company vehicle but that is another story. I ended up with the promotion after that. How many people are working for companies because they check a box and nothing else. At least the Supreme Court is trying to level the playing field in collages. I know a lot of Asians that got passed over for lower performing students because they needed a more diverse student body.

 

[Bob]

They are deeply intertwined, with a lot of racism at the heart of systemic economic oppression. From slavery to red-lining as big, obvious, formal systems, and continuing into the modern day with more subtlety, like in the sources I just provided.

Which doesn't change the point that blacks are more affected by unjustified police lethal force because they live in more crime ridden areas and are more likely to commit crimes.

 

[Nimbus]

Defunding means to stop providing funds. It doesn't mean to reduce funding. It's disingenuous to later claim 'oh we meant to cut the budget, not eliminate it'. 'Defund the police' was a ludicrous demand that pushed reasonable people away from BLM.
They could have called for demilitarizing, reforming, redirecting, delethalizing, socializing, etc. but they called for defunding, which really brings their end game into question.

It’s also disingenuous to put such a heavy emphasis in the dictionary definition without considering the context, especially considering that they consciously avoided the word ‘abolish’. If they want the police to cease to exist, they can simply call to abolish it, just like people who want to abolish the ICE and the ATF.

Another truly disingenuous campaign by the right is the “all lives matter” slogan. Black lives matter doesn’t mean “only black lives matter”, it means “black lives matter too.” Nobody believes that only black lives matter, so “all lives matter” is a smartass wordplay designed to accuse black people of exclusivity.

 

[Nimbus]

I can't tell you what happens to other people but I can tell you what happend to me,. Quite a few years ago there was a big promotion opening in the company I worked for. I was a shoe in for that position but HR decided that Affirmative Action was necessary and hired an outside black person. My boss and the regional boss both said they wanted to give me the position but HR needed "some color" in engineering even though my qualifications far outclassed his. Does that sound fair to you? Happened a lot and still does to this day. The guy lasted six months until he decided to buy drugs in a company vehicle but that is another story. I ended up with the promotion after that. How many people are working for companies because they check a box and nothing else. At least the Supreme Court is trying to level the playing field in collages. I know a lot of Asians that got passed over for lower performing students because they needed a more diverse student body.

Well I can tell you what happened to me. I perform well at work and received awards. I’m not an asshole so I’m generally liked. I’m considered vital to the division that I escaped mass layoff. Despite this every single person at my level (except for me) has been promoted in the past several years, some of them twice. The lady who used to report to me had been promoted 4 times, and now she outranks me. They are all white.

My wife has been working for the same organization for a decade. When the leadership was taken over by overtly white Christians, she stopped receiving raises and her outwardly Christian friends were all promoted. Now she earns less than new employees. The only reason she stays is because it’s part time and she loves the people she serves.

This was Indiana, which has moved very far to the right.

For every bad affirmative action story, there’s several more covert discriminations going on, especially in the south.

 

[Bob]

It’s also disingenuous to put such a heavy emphasis in the dictionary definition without considering the context, especially considering that they consciously avoided the word ‘abolish’. If they want the police to cease to exist, they can simply call to abolish it, just like people who want to abolish the ICE and the ATF.

Another truly disingenuous campaign by the right is the “all lives matter” slogan. Black lives matter doesn’t mean “only black lives matter”, it means “black lives matter too.” Nobody believes that only black lives matter, so “all lives matter” is a smartass wordplay designed to accuse black people of exclusivity.

In this case the dictionary definition is, or was, the vernacular. If they didn't mean 'stop funding' then they shouldn't have said 'stop funding'. It was a really bad time to try to introduce a new definition.
Rejection of 'all lives matter' can come across as racist, as if the only lives that matter are black. That exclusivity is a reason people didn't and don't get behind BLM.

 

[Hawk256]

For every bad affirmative action story, there’s several more covert discriminations going on, especially in the south.

Living in the south, I didn't see it. Many, many more affirmative actions stories that continue to this day. Like I said I lost out because I was white. I guess we will agree to disagree on some of the details.

 

[Bob]

Well I can tell you what happened to me. I perform well at work and received awards. I’m not an asshole so I’m generally liked. I’m considered vital to the division that I escaped mass layoff. Despite this every single person at my level (except for me) has been promoted in the past several years, some of them twice. The lady who used to report to me had been promoted 4 times, and now she outranks me. They are all white.

My wife has been working for the same organization for a decade. When the leadership was taken over by overtly white Christians, she stopped receiving raises and her outwardly Christian friends were all promoted. Now she earns less than new employees. The only reason she stays is because it’s part time and she loves the people she serves.

This was Indiana, which has moved very far to the right.

For every bad affirmative action story, there’s several more covert discriminations going on, especially in the south.

Why especially in the South? Indiana, Illinois, the Plains and Mountain West are probably more racist.

 

[Hawk256]

I would recommend viewing Great American Race Game. It goes into a lot detail about the topic of race in the US and is presented by some very well known black people. One of the speakers was MLK Jrs, right hand man. Maybe it will actually teach you something. It did me.

 

[Nimbus]

I would recommend viewing Great American Race Game. It goes into a lot detail about the topic of race in the US and is presented by some very well known black people. One of the speakers was MLK Jrs, right hand man. Maybe it will actually teach you something. It did me.

Oh, not another propaganda movie demonizing Democrats.

Private Site