Punishment for women who don't want to wear jilbab

[John indonesia]

It's not pornography or even close to pornography. There's nothing at all that a normal person would find prurient about the picture.

I don't think it is either, but my weak understanding of local law suggests it's illegal to spread pictures of semi-naked women.
As two appear to by underage, that would be child pornography.

 

[John indonesia]

These are historical assets.

Yes, firm ones.

 

[jstar]

I tend to find a headscarf shows roundness in a woman's face, and that can make her look cute.

And that’s exactly what a hijab (and niqab and burka) wants/needs to avoid. You being turned on by the appearance of a woman.

The moment you start talking about porn when seeing old pictures of daily life in other cultures and tempo doeloe, makes me really wonder where you grew up and what your age is. You must have major problems seeing any movie where there’s some nudity involved, luckily on TransTV everything is cut out or blurred.

And were you involved in this?

 

[John indonesia]

The moment you start talking about porn when seeing old pictures of daily life in other cultures and tempo doeloe, makes me really wonder where you grew up and what your age is. You must have major problems seeing any movie where there’s some nudity involved, luckily on TransTV everything is cut out or blurred.

And were you involved in this?
View attachment 4175

I didn't say I care. You assume I do, but I didn't say it.
In fact, I don't.

 

[John indonesia]

And that’s exactly what a hijab (and niqab and burka) wants/needs to avoid. You being turned on by the appearance of a woman.

Assuming that was their intervention. It seems they missed they failed

 

[Ruserious]

Assuming that was their intervention. It seems they missed they failed

I presume you meant intention.

 

[MamangDudul]

I think we can't deny a certain shift towards "Arabic"- Islam in Indonesia, while the Arabs are slowly getting more moderate.

What I see in Indonesia is still something that involves a lot of fashion rather than really being a religious hardliner. At least for many people it is just fashionable to "seem" like a good muslim rather than being the perfect muslim. At least that is my feeling and SOME muslims I talked with told me similar things.
If we look at Indonesia then, besides religion, we see people being totally in line with capitalism wanting to consume as much as possible and enjoying their daily tik tok dance. Well, even if some people always wanna scare us, I think most people here don't wanna live under Sharia. I even think that most people in Aceh don't really want it, but I could be wrong. Anyway, this leads too far now.

About the headscarf and when it comes to looks, to each their own. Personally I think many women look cute in it. I also don't know if that was the intention of the whole thing, but I get these vibes. Sometimes it's really more interesting to guess what's underneath.. sometimes it's better to cover it I guess.

 

[pantaiema]

I think we can't deny a certain shift towards "Arabic"- Islam in Indonesia, while the Arabs are slowly getting more moderate.

What I see in Indonesia is still something that involves a lot of fashion rather than really being a religious hardliner. At least for many people it is just fashionable to "seem" like a good muslim rather than being the perfect muslim. At least that is my feeling and SOME muslims I talked with told me similar things.
If we look at Indonesia then, besides religion, we see people being totally in line with capitalism wanting to consume as much as possible and enjoying their daily tik tok dance. Well, even if some people always wanna scare us, I think most people here don't wanna live under Sharia. I even think that most people in Aceh don't really want it, but I could be wrong. Anyway, this leads too far now.

About the headscarf and when it comes to looks, to each their own. Personally I think many women look cute in it. I also don't know if that was the intention of the whole thing, but I get these vibes. Sometimes it's really more interesting to guess what's underneath.. sometimes it's better to cover it I guess.

What is dangerous here is complacency, assuming that the movement from hardliners to impose Sharia law is highly unlikely. Aceh is just the starting point.

I recall a discussion a while ago on Expat Indo where a few people argued it was nearly impossible for Indonesia to apply Sharia law. Yet, just a few weeks after that statement, the law against cohabitation and extramarital sex passed through parliament.

If this movement keeps growing, even slowly, there is a foundational support that will eventually lead to its final destination. By the time it happens, it will be too late to reverse it.

In my view, boarding schools that indoctrinate children and isolate them from peers of different beliefs, religions, cultures, and backgrounds should be banned. There is very little benefit (if any) to the nation, apart from allowing hardliners to maintain grass roots support through brainwashing and indoctrination of children. These schools could be dissolved and their students integrated into general elementary, intermediate, and high schools. Evidence has shown that many of these groups can be easily mobilized with just a meal or a small amount of pocket money to participate in street demonstrations. Additionally, they are less likely to achieve high incomes compared to children educated in more diverse environments. If teenagers from these religious boarding schools manage to enter prestigious state universities in Indonesia, it is likely through special political quotas rather than competing on equal ground with other applicants.

 

[John indonesia]

I presume you meant intention.

You presume correctly.
I like cuteness in women, and Indonesian style jilbabs (Did I get that right?) accentuate a roundness of face.
That increases desire so the idea has clearly failed as far as I'm concerned.

 

[John indonesia]

In my view, boarding schools that indoctrinate children and isolate them from peers of different beliefs, religions, cultures, and backgrounds should be banned. There is very little benefit (if any) to the nation, apart from allowing hardliners to maintain grass roots support through brainwashing and indoctrination of children.

That depends on the school in question. An Islamic school doesn't have to be a hotbed of extremism, it could well be one with an international outlook on education, but with a desire to teach values and morality.
As with anything, the bad finds its way into the press, but that doesn't mean all are bad.
Your assertion depends on your definition of indoctrination.
If 'indoctrination' is teaching moral values, you're wrong.
If it is about pushing extremism, you are correct.

Then it's down to what morals you see as acceptable. In fact, from what little I know of Islamic values, they might well be of benefit to society, or at the very least, remove the worst behaviour we see in many countries.
No Alcohol - Would teaching that be an issue? I stopped drinking years ago (except the odd glass of wine from time to time with a good meal). No big deal there.
No sex outside marriage. That would also mean a tiny STD problem in general, and no AIDS at all.
No drugs - Would anyone object to that?

 

[fastpitch17]

That depends on the school in question. An Islamic school doesn't have to be a hotbed of extremism, it could well be one with an international outlook on education, but with a desire to teach values and morality.
As with anything, the bad finds its way into the press, but that doesn't mean all are bad.
Your assertion depends on your definition of indoctrination.
If 'indoctrination' is teaching moral values, you're wrong.
If it is about pushing extremism, you are correct.

Then it's down to what morals you see as acceptable. In fact, from what little I know of Islamic values, they might well be of benefit to society, or at the very least, remove the worst behaviour we see in many countries.
No Alcohol - Would teaching that be an issue? I stopped drinking years ago (except the odd glass of wine from time to time with a good meal). No big deal there.
No sex outside marriage. That would also mean a tiny STD problem in general, and no AIDS at all.
No drugs - Would anyone object to that?

Such a good Muslims you are. A pat on the head and a scratch behind the ears for you. Yep, choose and tell up what is good and leave out anything negative you personally would accept or reject. It isn't supposed to be a pick and choose what you want religion but that is what it is. With those personal likes it just leads me to think you really wanted to add diminishing women's rights, eliminating respect for anyone not Muslim and the Muslims that don't fully agree with you.

I doubt you really know anything about Islam. I suggest you read the Quran cover to cover to get an understanding of the original concept and then go read all the Hadiths of which men from throughout Islamic history tell you what the Quran says and you can understand where Islamic schools get their direction. They also get financing from local and federal government that without they would fold up. Then, go read what Sharia law really is. Even a dog figures out that noise it making can actually lead to a bark. Now, go be a good boy.

 

[Bob]

What is dangerous here is complacency, assuming that the movement from hardliners to impose Sharia law is highly unlikely. Aceh is just the starting point.

I recall a discussion a while ago on Expat Indo where a few people argued it was nearly impossible for Indonesia to apply Sharia law. Yet, just a few weeks after that statement, the law against cohabitation and extramarital sex passed through parliament.

If this movement keeps growing, even slowly, there is a foundational support that will eventually lead to its final destination. By the time it happens, it will be too late to reverse it.

In my view, boarding schools that indoctrinate children and isolate them from peers of different beliefs, religions, cultures, and backgrounds should be banned. There is very little benefit (if any) to the nation, apart from allowing hardliners to maintain grass roots support through brainwashing and indoctrination of children. These schools could be dissolved and their students integrated into general elementary, intermediate, and high schools. Evidence has shown that many of these groups can be easily mobilized with just a meal or a small amount of pocket money to participate in street demonstrations. Additionally, they are less likely to achieve high incomes compared to children educated in more diverse environments. If teenagers from these religious boarding schools manage to enter prestigious state universities in Indonesia, it is likely through special political quotas rather than competing on equal ground with other applicants.

Does that include Catholic and Protestant boarding schools too?
I don't follow the segue from schools to street demonstrations but that may just be me. It seems like a jab at the majority demographic though. Needy people of any persuasion are susceptible to such enticement.

 

[fastpitch17]

Does that include Catholic and Protestant boarding schools too?
I don't follow the segue from schools to street demonstrations but that may just be me. It seems like a jab at the majority demographic though. Needy people of any persuasion are susceptible to such enticement.

Catholic schools in Indonesia welcome all faiths and do not mandate anyone taking religious classes if not Catholic. I have Muslim family members who educate their children K-12 in Catholic schools and tell me that never once were their children forced or asked to partake in Catholic region classes or religious related events except for a few diverse events offered from time to time.

Of course needy people are susceptible to such enticement. They are targeted. Your poor, it's god's will. Great rewards await you.

 

[Pak Tani]

Such a good Muslims you are. A pat on the head and a scratch behind the ears for you. Yep, choose and tell up what is good and leave out anything negative you personally would accept or reject. It isn't supposed to be a pick and choose what you want religion but that is what it is. With those personal likes it just leads me to think you really wanted to add diminishing women's rights, eliminating respect for anyone not Muslim and the Muslims that don't fully agree with you.

Why should you be allowed to only mention the things about Islam that you see as negative while he is not allowed to say the things he thinks are positive?

I suggest you read the Quran cover to cover to get an understanding of the original concept and then go read all the Hadiths of which men from throughout Islamic history tell you what the Quran says and you can understand where Islamic schools get their direction.... Then, go read what Sharia law really is. Even a dog figures out that noise it making can actually lead to a bark. Now, go be a good boy.

Since you haven't read all this either, why are you allowed to speak your mind about Islam and he isn't?

Why do you talk to him as if he is a dog?

I doubt you really know anything about Islam.

yeah...

 

[Bob]

Catholic schools in Indonesia welcome all faiths and do not mandate anyone taking religious classes if not Catholic. I have Muslim family members who educate their children K-12 in Catholic schools and tell me that never once were their children forced or asked to partake in Catholic region classes or religious related events except for a few diverse events offered from time to time.

Of course needy people are susceptible to such enticement. They are targeted. Your poor, it's god's will. Great rewards await you.

That's good for the Catholic schools. I'm not sure if the same holds true in NTT e.g. though. How about Protestant schools?
The enticements mentioned are great rewards like a meal box or rp50K. God's will has FA to do with it. That whole post was pretty much just a rant against 'the other'.

 

[pantaiema]

If teenagers from these religious boarding schools manage to enter prestigious state universities in Indonesia, it is likely through special political quotas rather than competing on equal ground with other applicants.

This is one of many examples that I am talking about.

https://ma.mpuin-jkt.sch.id/read/empat-peserta-didik-aliyah-lolos-ptn-tanpa-tes Four 'Aliyah' (it is a boarding school) Students admitted to state university without Tests

As previously mentioned, aside from the 'money route,' gaining admission to a prestigious state university in Indonesia via the regular (subsidized) route is highly competitive. Those who enter through this examination route are already well-screened. However, teenagers from boarding schools are admitted solely based on their grades and rankings within their own local schools. They do not compete nationally on equal footing with their peers.

Although not many, imagine if such students become doctors and are the ones examining you. All people know is that they graduated from one of Indonesia's top medical schools, such as the University of Indonesia, Gadjah Mada University, or Airlangga University, etc. There is no indication of how they were admitted, earned their degrees, or obtained their qualifications.

I'm not suggesting that all of them are inadequate, but it can be said that they are more likely to have lower standards and intelligence compared to their peers who were admitted through a highly competitive process.

 

[Bob]

Such a good Muslims you are. A pat on the head and a scratch behind the ears for you. Yep, choose and tell up what is good and leave out anything negative you personally would accept or reject. It isn't supposed to be a pick and choose what you want religion but that is what it is. With those personal likes it just leads me to think you really wanted to add diminishing women's rights, eliminating respect for anyone not Muslim and the Muslims that don't fully agree with you.

I doubt you really know anything about Islam. I suggest you read the Quran cover to cover to get an understanding of the original concept and then go read all the Hadiths of which men from throughout Islamic history tell you what the Quran says and you can understand where Islamic schools get their direction. They also get financing from local and federal government that without they would fold up. Then, go read what Sharia law really is. Even a dog figures out that noise it making can actually lead to a bark. Now, go be a good boy.

It looks like someone got up on the wrong side of the bed.
If I'm telling someone that they don't know their subject matter then I try to not be wrong about it myself. You might want to double check what a hadith is.

 

[Bob]

This is one of many examples that I am talking about.

https://ma.mpuin-jkt.sch.id/read/empat-peserta-didik-aliyah-lolos-ptn-tanpa-tes Four 'Aliyah' (it is a boarding school) Students admitted to state university without Tests

As previously mentioned, aside from the 'money route,' gaining admission to a prestigious state university in Indonesia via the regular (subsidized) route is highly competitive. Those who enter through this examination route are already well-screened. However, teenagers from boarding schools are admitted solely based on their grades and rankings within their local schools. They do not compete nationally on equal footing with their peers.

Although not many, imagine if such students become doctors and are the ones examining you. All people know is that they graduated from one of Indonesia's top medical schools, such as the University of Indonesia, Gadjah Mada University, or Airlangga University. There is no indication of how they were admitted, earned their degrees, or obtained their qualifications.

I'm not suggesting that all of them are inadequate, but it can be said that they are more likely to have lower standards and intelligence compared to their peers who were admitted through a highly competitive process.

If they're from a good school and earned their good marks then what's the problem? At any rate, what matters is what they learn at university and not how they get in. The ones you target are less likely to be able to buy their diplomas so should be among the more competent graduates.

 

[pantaiema]

If they're from a good school and earned their good marks then what's the problem? At any rate, what matters is what they learn at university and not how they get in. The ones you target are less likely to be able to buy their diplomas so should be among the more competent graduates.

I agree with your points to some extent. However,

There is little evidence to suggest that those who attend boarding schools are highly competitive students. In fact, the academic criteria for admission in boarding schools is much lower than the the prestigious state high schools. So it might be that they join boarding school because they do not get admitted to the prestigious state high schools in the first instance. Not to mention, these boarding schools are free and provide free boarding.

Additionally, the Prestigious universities in Indonesia, especially the top ones with favourable programs, are highly subscribed. These universities have a limited capacity. Once students are admitted, there is often pressure from the top, passed down to the teaching staff, to pass these students despite substandard performance, so they can graduate quickly and make room for new admissions via the 'money route.' It is important to note that the teaching staff might not know how these students were admitted in the first place and may treat them similarly to those who entered through the 'money route,' preparing the place for new admissions due to the pressure from the top.

The 'money route' at prestigious state universities in Indonesia is less likely to involve bribing individual professors. Instead, it typically occurs through established official channels, where students pay exceptionally high tuition fees and contribute to a 'development fund.' compared to regular subsidized route.

 

[Bob]

I agree with your points to some extent. However,

There is little evidence to suggest that those who attend boarding schools are highly competitive students. In fact, the academic criteria for admission in boarding schools is much lower than the the prestigious state high schools. So it might be that they join boarding school because they do not get admitted to the prestigious state high schools in the first instance. Not to mention, these boarding schools are free and provide free boarding.

Additionall, the Prestigious universities in Indonesia, especially the top ones with favorable programs, are highly subscribed. These universities have a limited capacity. Once students are admitted, there is often pressure from the top, passed down to the teaching staff, to pass these students despite substandard performance, so they can graduate quickly and make room for new admissions via the 'money route.' It is important to note that the teaching staff might not know how these students were admitted in the first place and may treat them similarly to those who entered through the 'money route,' preparing the place for new admissions.

It seems like you're reaching. There's a range in quality of the boarding schools and some of them are quite good. Is there evidence that those who attend the better boarding schools are not highly competitive students?