New Sharia Tourist Zone For Jakarta

[Nimbus]

OK Nimbus, we get it. You are privileged. You are special. You stand out in a vast crowd of the downtrodden. There, you got some praise. That's what you seem to be wanting since you keep saying how privileged you are. Got it.

Of course, it all seems to be rather selfish of you the priviledged one. You see, in the US the blacks you used as a comparison are given a lot of opportunities if they in fact want to work to acheive the. Plenty of organizations that reach out to offer a better, more successful future for those willing to go after it.

Here, well, I haven't seen anything from you how you reach out to help those that could use some assistance in reaching their goals. What's the matter with that. Oh, that's right. You may be the most intellegent kid in all the kampung but you are not from privilege. Your privilege keeps them out because they are not special like you. They have to work harder then you ever had because they are not privileged like you. Compared to their path to success, you have done nothing because that silver spoon can only be used by you and your privileged family. How many of the less fortunate that have dreams and goals have you reached out to? I think that answer would be none because they are not sitting in the golden room with you.

I have a family member. Upper middle class. Was lucky with acquiring land when he was younger. As the area grew, he made money off that land in S. Jakarta. He never had a highschool education but knew the value of it. He has a lot of your privileged friends but never turns away from one that is not. His first move when he started coming into wealth was to donate land and paid to build a mosque and cemetery. That mosque feeds the area children daily and anyone else that wants a meal is welcome. He pays for that. Shortly after that he realized that education was the only way to succeed in the future, he built a school on more of his land. He wanted a place for those that were turned down by the public school system mainly because they couldn't afford the so called free education. Not being able to build a public school, he built an Islamic school. Not a boarding school because he thought it more benificial to have the children available to be at home to help and learn from their parents. He still pays all expenses for the school and students. They have been able to send 2/3s of their students to highschool and he picks up most of those expenses. This has been going on for almost 30 years now. If you met him on the street you would never guess his wealth or status in the area. He does not proclaim privilege like those that do to elevate their image only. The thing is, he is privileged but instead of shouting it from the rooftop like people like you, he builds people their roofs. Instead of spouting about his privilege, he offers opportunities. He offers a chance. You offer selfishness. I am proud to know him. I am proud that he influenced me to reach out to others to aid in them reaching their goals. I am ashamed that I, a foreigner does more than most of the privileged Indonesians. But, I am not priviledged even by Indonesian standards.

I saw this coming a mile away. When I say I'm privileged, it does not mean that I think I'm better than them, that I'm lording it over anyone.

I'm not better than them, simply luckier.

I'm saying that I'm privileged not as a boast, but as an expression of gratitude for the fortune I received and the help I got from everybody in my life. I know that not everybody in this world is as fortunate.

The only reason to bring up my privilege is because I'm sick of this bullshit, that if you're not doing well in life, it's must be because you're not working hard enough.

Since you're going for a personal low blow by insinuating that I lack charity, then allow me to return the favor. It must be nice to be self made, to not need any education and guidance from parents and teachers, to not take advantage of growing up in a first world country. Nice to meet you Athena.

Now about black people. This is my biggest problem with conservatives: that they think voluntary charity is enough to handle massive structural problems in society. Black people were enslaved for a century, then discriminated against for another. Even today they are mostly living in poor districts with underperforming schools.

Every sane parent that I know understands that living in a good neighborhood and going to good schools are extremely important. Yet despite most of black people living in these districts, if they are underperforming it's all their fault, that they aren't working hard enough. Sure there are scholarships here and there from charitable organizations and individuals, but only for a very small number of people, like maybe one or two each class. The rest are SOL.

With all this conservatives are fighting tooth and nail to defund public education even further, in favor of private (and religious) schools. I tell you what, people of color don't need the little scraps of charity, they simply need equal opportunity to go to first rate schools.

 

[fastpitch17]

Damn, I thought we were discussing Indonesia but I guess Indonesians are not good enough for you to rally around. You want to take up other nations causes. Indonesian's were not brought here as slaves over 100 years ago and use that argument today when there is no one around that had anything to do with it. Racism in America? Yep, it exist and it goes more then one way. That is not Indonesia's problem. Indonesia needs opportunities. They need those that have to open up and make these opportunities. Not opening a business and try and figure out how little you can pay people but to aid in education so people can pursue their dreams and goals. A system that encourages them to have dreams, goals, and open mind, and critical thinking skills. A society that encourages and not discourages them, holding them back. The so called privileged could do this but it seems you are too busy only taking care of your own in your special private place reserved for the lucky ones. Maybe if you thought about your nation and it's future instead of yourself it could improve. You have so far only made your nation poorer. You're in the US, get a clue to what patriotic means. Something Indonesia lacks.

 

[Nimbus]

Damn, I thought we were discussing Indonesia but I guess Indonesians are not good enough for you to rally around. You want to take up other nations causes. Indonesian's were not brought here as slaves over 100 years ago and use that argument today when there is no one around that had anything to do with it. Racism in America? Yep, it exist and it goes more then one way. That is not Indonesia's problem. Indonesia needs opportunities. They need those that have to open up and make these opportunities. Not opening a business and try and figure out how little you can pay people but to aid in education so people can pursue their dreams and goals. A system that encourages them to have dreams, goals, and open mind, and critical thinking skills. A society that encourages and not discourages them, holding them back. The so called privileged could do this but it seems you are too busy only taking care of your own in your special private place reserved for the lucky ones. Maybe if you thought about your nation and it's future instead of yourself it could improve. You have so far only made your nation poorer. You're in the US, get a clue to what patriotic means. Something Indonesia lacks.

We are discussing privilege in general. I bring myself as an example, not as a brag. There are many more people far more privileged that me, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy any form of privilege. I am quite certain that I'm not as privileged as you, but I'm positive that I'm more privileged than a typical Indonesian taxi driver.

We got to this point because --borrowing your word-- of the bullshit about anybody can be anything, that if a person is poor it's simply because he's lazy. The reality is that the average people are limited by their circumstances, by lack of opportunity, lack of quality education, etc. Acknowledging these limitations is not the same as making excuses; the first step in solving a problem is admitting that a problem exists to begin with. You can't make it go away just by labeling it as 'excuses'.

 

[rabbit_39]

One side of the coin is that there are successful people who rose from a position of non privilege. Another side of that same coin is there are members of the privileged class who do not enjoy the benefits of their class. Either way, it is up to the individual to make or break, to take or not take, the opportunities for success they have been presented with. Are they willing to put in the effort (less effort if you're privileged, much more effort if you're not privileged) in order to succeed?

For myself, it is enough that we recognize that those two groups exist. By acknowledging their existence, then we don't automatically "pity" those who aren't privileged. But rather we try to provide opportunities for them to succeed. We also don't automatically envy or dismiss those in the privileged class as "having it easy".

Everyone is an individual. Their circumstances differ from each other. As we get to know them or in a position to help one another, we should take this into account.

Additionally, it's fine if we want to recognize our privilege. But it doesn't mean that others would also need our same circumstances to succeed. If @Nimbus feels privileged for having been born into a family who could afford to send him abroad, it doesn't mean someone else need that to succeed. Which means having been born into that family isn't as much of a privilege as we all think.

Dan's wife was able to overcome her challenges. It doesn't mean someone else in the same situation would be able to overcome them. It simply means that she did. And that others should be able to as well. But due to the individual differences, others may need additional opportunities or assistance or encouragement.

I've paid for the school costs for people who worked for me before. That's because I see their potential and I want them to have the opportunity. I've made a technician be a supervising engineer in a project to give him the opportunity to lead that I know he is capable of. You know what, I win some, I lose some.

Same thing here. On the one side some people will always think that being privileged is a requirement of success and those who aren't privileged need to be pitied. On another side some people will always think that an individual will always be able to overcome their situation if they want it. On either extreme, never the 'twain shall meet.

I am leaning toward the second, that an individual will always be able to overcome their situation if they want it. As a matter of fact, this willingness is the singular thing crucial to succeed. Without it, even given privilege, you won't succeed (except by inheriting the wealth).

My opinion comes with the realization that many will need some assistance to be able to have the opportunity they may otherwise be very difficult (sometimes impossible) be able to take. Without this opportunity, the willingness to succeed is not enough. With the opportunity, without willingness to succeed, that's also not enough.

 

[nd_eric_77]

I guess the whole Sharia in Jakarta issue has fizzled out since all this thread cares about is freaking "privilege" claims and counter-claims.

If it's not too much trouble, could a mod please move the SARA replies to a separate thread so this thread could focus on the proposed Sharia zone?

 

[mauricio]

Does that mean being an ethnic Malay automatically makes you lazy, or does that mean being raised as a Malay makes you lazy?

I guess only Dr. Mahathir can answer your question. But essentially, he is saying that Malays are less successful than the Chinese even though Malays are given preferential treatments by the government whereas no preferential treatment for the Chinese who also get handicapped by discriminatory laws and policy.

 

[mauricio]

Back to the topic, perhaps a Sharia Tourist Zone for Jakarta is not such a bad idea. There may be local and foreign tourists interested in experiencing what life was during the time of ‘you know who’ hundreds of years ago. Inside the zone, there will be no cars or motorcycles, but camels. Tourists stay in outdoor tents, there will be no electricity and no phone signal (jammed). No radio, no television, no internet. Music is not allowed, no dancing too. Everybody must dress appropriately (burqa for women, FPI look-alike for men). All Muslims must attend Quran study group and pray five times a day (or else). Entertainment is listening to sermons and watching actors being stoned, flogged, or decapitated.

 

[ChrisTex]

Back to the topic, perhaps a Sharia Tourist Zone for Jakarta is not such a bad idea. There may be local and foreign tourists interested in experiencing what life was during the time of ‘you know who’ hundreds of years ago. Inside the zone, there will be no cars or motorcycles, but camels. Tourists stay in outdoor tents, there will be no electricity and no phone signal (jammed). No radio, no television, no internet. Music is not allowed, no dancing too. Everybody must dress appropriately (burqa for women, FPI look-alike for men). All Muslims must attend Quran study group and pray five times a day (or else). Entertainment is listening to sermons and watching actors being stoned, flogged, or decapitated.

What about the loud speakers to tell everyone it is time to pray at 100+ decibles? That might have to be a concession.

 

[Nimbus]

My opinion comes with the realization that many will need some assistance to be able to have the opportunity they may otherwise be very difficult (sometimes impossible) be able to take. Without this opportunity, the willingness to succeed is not enough. With the opportunity, without willingness to succeed, that's also not enough.

Opportunity is privilege. It's not something that everybody has or finds. Many people go through life without getting any significant break.

Some of my cousins are smarter than me, but since they're not afforded the same opportunity, they're not doing as well.

Somebody will come along and say that you make your own opportunity...

Anyway, I never mean to say that privilege/luck/opportunity alone is enough. There was a time when I worked two jobs (one full time and one part time), went to school (full time), and raised a toddler at the same time. That was hard work.

 

[Nimbus]

I guess only Dr. Mahathir can answer your question. But essentially, he is saying that Malays are less successful than the Chinese even though Malays are given preferential treatments by the government whereas no preferential treatment for the Chinese who also get handicapped by discriminatory laws and policy.

Yes, the plain fact of the matter is that Malays in Malaysia are less successful despite getting preferential treatment for 50 years by the government.

If you say that culturally Malays are less advanced than non ethnic Malays in Malaysia, the fact seems to support that. If you say simply being a Malay genetically makes one inferior than other ethnicities, then it's a racist opinion not supported by fact.

Culture matters. In a smaller scale within a company, culture can make or break the business. The best companies in the world has the right culture, and they spend a considerable amount of resource fostering and growing it. Unfortunately in a large scale of a nation, changing and improving the culture is very hard. It's not impossible --as Suharto has successfully propagated a culture of corruption-- but it takes a long time.

 

[rabbit_39]

Some of my cousins are smarter than me, but since they're not afforded the same opportunity, they're not doing as well.

Somebody will come along and say that you make your own opportunity...

You (plural) kind of do... But only in a sense that you're already willing to put in the effort to succeed and always trying, not giving up and not turn into a beggar's mentality. Yes some people get the opportunity (@Nimbus as an example) and they take it by the reins. Some don't. And even more (probably) don't even get the opportunity for them to even grab on to.

Anyway, I never mean to say that privilege/luck/opportunity alone is enough. There was a time when I worked two jobs (one full time and one part time), went to school (full time), and raised a toddler at the same time. That was hard work.

You got me at the toddler

 

[William King]

So for the virtue of being born to hard working grandparents, you are then privileged, simple enough really.

 

[William King]

Sounds like some of you do not understand what white privellege really means, despite Nimbus' efforts to enlighten you.

 

[William King]

Damn... i think this thread just got trimmed.

 

[Daniel50]

Determinism vs free will vs soft determinism. Who has figured all these lines of interaction out.