New Education Minister

[rabbit_39]

FP, I've found a handful. But like you said, often they are stripped of those qualities. The few that came through, usually didn't come through unscathed but at least was able to keep some of those qualities and I can try to get it back. They just have to want it back.

 

[fastpitch17]

FP, I've found a handful. But like you said, often they are stripped of those qualities. The few that came through, usually didn't come through unscathed but at least was able to keep some of those qualities and I can try to get it back. They just have to want it back.

I think parents are as much to blame as the education system but then again, they came through the same education system.

i am sad for the kids in the kampungs that drop out of school. Most of them after middle school. Mainly because the parents can't afford the (free) education and for many girls, to prepare them for eventually getting married so education doesn't matter. I have met so many bright individuals who have dropped out or been removed from school. It's sad that these intelligent kids will in all likelihood never have a chance at improving their lives or contributing to the future of Indonesia in a positive manor.

 

[HappyMan]

I think you two might be going at it a bit too hard. There are, in fact, schools in Indonesia that teach the students to think creatively. There are several schools here in Bandung that I, someone who did not attend school in Indonesia and has had very little interest in education beyond the elementary level, could point to as examples. Further, I take umbrage at your broad generalization of Indonesians as persons without creativity or critical thinking skills. Please show some restraint and tact, in acknowledgement of the fact that you do not know every Indonesian or even a good sampling of Indonesians. You might consider the possibility that you are biased by differences in culture, etiquette, or language. Perhaps there is some reason why your interactions tend to be limited to persons who can be generalized in such a way? Or, perhaps it is you who fails to perceive and acknowledge the abilities of others? For god's sake, just show some tact.

 

[rabbit_39]

HM: that's why I always put in the caveat "in my exoerience" I don't claim to know every Indonesian. I do claim that I've met several bright stars, and I've worked with a few.

But is it wrong to say that I have found in general I could only find a handful of people who are willing to learn these skills? That's my experience, and I am not shy in saying it because I want as many people to be aware so that if I was correct, enough people will eventually see the same thing and do something about it too.

Obviously there are good Indonesians who have broken through the barriers. The software Qlue was developed here by locals. There are more and more local entrepreneurs.

But if we stay quiet and accept what we perceive as wrong or lacking, nothing will change. I'm always willing to be proven wrong, that's how we all learn. As a matter of fact in my business, I have to keep that open mind and learn from anyone and everyone I meet.

My first 2 years here I was a lot less vocal. But now I am in a phase where I think being vocal makes more of a difference than staying quiet.

 

[Puspawarna]

If I was to only go by experience, taking Uber, grab, gojek drivers as examples, I'd say that if they were educated in Indonesia, the system failed. My street is about 500 meters long, next to a university and it has an art theater that has been mentioned by some of us. The house numbers are consecutive.
.

Well, there's your problem right there. Consecutive house numbers? I'm not sure I believe you. I've never seen that before on any street I've examined in Jakarta. If it really is that way, perhaps the driers are too excited by the miracle to think clearly.

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

And for mix marriage family, like me, it is fall into our choice where to put our children. I have decided from the beginning that my children will not receive their education in Indonesia, therefore their path would be international school when we are not in husband's home country. If in the future, I see that having Indonesian education gives more advantage, they will then need to have National Exam. In fact, we have changed our mind once, I put them in British School thinking that they will have their continuing education in england, but after getting more educated myself, I've seen that opportunities for those graduated from USA is more than those graduated from UK. I am seeing it with my asian eyes of course.. You see, even with international school, all again depend on your voice. As a mixed marriage producing dual citizen children, if you decide to raise your kids under their Indonesian citizen, they should receive Indonesian education as it is not only teach basic knowledge like math, english etc but also to have the essence of Indonesian.

Setuju on this part (bolded above). This would certainly be an issue to decide for my wife and I if we had a child, as for any "mixed" couple with children. Some may decide to raise their kids with citizen of the "other" country in mind for them, some may feel it is best to raise them to be Indonesian citizen and therefore with that focus including language and education. I am sure it can be a difficult decision for sure.

But in terms of raising and schooling kids in Indonesian schools, there is a solution which, I believe, provides somewhat of a compromise, that is to say a school like SPK category - formerly and informally known as "National Plus" schools - which incorporates both the kurikulum nasional - whatever the current flavor of it may be at the moment - as well as international curriculum such as IB and international partnership such as Cambridge. I personally know that a fair number of mixed couples do seem comfortable enough educating their kids in such schools, because I have been one of their teachers, and I think the reason is because they do in fact want both aspects combined in one education: the national component and sense of identity, and the enhanced capability and opportunity that study in an "international" curriculum and with extensive course-work in (mainly) English and / or Mandarin.

For the pure expat couple whose children are not Indonesian, I can understand the considerations may be quite different, so I'm not addressing that here, although I do also know some expat families who do seem comfortable enough with their non-Indonesian kids in such dual-curriculum schools.

 

[rabbit_39]

Well, there's your problem right there. Consecutive house numbers? I'm not sure I believe you. I've never seen that before on any street I've examined in Jakarta. If it really is that way, perhaps the driers are too excited by the miracle to think clearly.

Ha! I'd like to laugh at that statement, but there's plenty of truth there. So the way I see it:
- Okay they're surprised that there are any streets with consecutive house numbers
- Okay so they expect to not able to rely on the houses having numbers on it
- Okay so they don't want to even try to check whether the theory I've given them is true or not
- Why can't they look at the GPS on the application? At the very least they'll get within 50 meters of the pick up point indicated on the gapp. Funny thing, I've seen a couple of older drivers (typical stereotype being anti-technology) comfortably use the GPS system and there's still a high enough percentage (higher than the older drivers) of the young drivers not wanting to use the GPS.

But yes, okay I'll concede that they don't believe me when I say the street numbers are consecutive.

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

Anyway, without getting into the the debate about national or international schools etc. He has also attempted to improve Primary education. Unfortunately, the implementation and news reporting does not quite do his efforts justice. His aim was for SD schools to reduce a crowded curriculum and move towards holistic or interdisciplinary learning, as per best practise around the world. The result was everyone focused on the 'dropping' of English from the curriculum. His concept was English should not be learned in isolation from other subjects, it should be learned as part of humanities or part of science etc.

This sort of "integrated learning" sounds like kurikulum 2013, which was implemented in 2014, I think, and dropped not more than a year or so later ... had he been in office that long?

Someone else said he reduced corruption. Actually when I visit DIKNAS now even if we bring a brown envelope with cash and hand it over when signing documents it will be politely given back. Officials visiting our school for evaluation etc tell us no money or presents. The BAN agency applies the criteria more strictly now as they are using them genuinely rather than accepting money.

???

He has also increased the education and national certification of all teachers in the country. From more than half of Indonesian teachers not having an S1 or Bachelor degree to nearly all having this minimum qualification. Many more teaches now have certification from the ministry and many more are being upgraded and trained even now.

Yes, I have seen some direct evidence of the push in this direction.

Increasing the requirements for foreign teachers I can understand the intent, though the implementation is a little rigid and lacking.

I would agree with that assessment too. Except maybe more than just a little. I personally think schools should have more discretion in deciding with regard to "qualification" versus need, and the bureaucracy needs to implement more flexibility or let schools and students suffer the consequences, as they already are. I do understand and appreciate the government's intention, but I think they should be more flexible in the implementation of their policies (though not necessarily the sort of "flexibility" alluded to somewhere above!).

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

If I see any reason for Indonesians to be patriotic and have pride in their country, I may be able to understand mssN's argument though I'd never agree to it.

But really why handicap the children when they have the opportunity to be more and contribute to society and the world? There are many examples of great potential Indonesians who are ruined by the Indonesian education system and it took a lot of additional effort on their part to succeed in the world and fulfill their potential.

Ah, here we go again. Your posts would be easier to tolerate if you were simply a troll, but I guess that characterization wouldn't fit, as you obviously believe the crap you say wholeheartedly. Pretty sad that you seem to be stuck (?) living in a country for which you have so little appreciation for it and for its people ... though you do seem to feel some pity for them, as it's not really COMPLETELY their own fault that they are so backward-thinking, ignorant, etc etc ... or is it? Anyway, yeah, sad for you ... wishing you to "relax and enjoy" your life in Indonesia, rabbit! wink wink

 

[fastpitch17]

I think you two might be going at it a bit too hard. There are, in fact, schools in Indonesia that teach the students to think creatively. There are several schools here in Bandung that I, someone who did not attend school in Indonesia and has had very little interest in education beyond the elementary level, could point to as examples. Further, I take umbrage at your broad generalization of Indonesians as persons without creativity or critical thinking skills. Please show some restraint and tact, in acknowledgement of the fact that you do not know every Indonesian or even a good sampling of Indonesians. You might consider the possibility that you are biased by differences in culture, etiquette, or language. Perhaps there is some reason why your interactions tend to be limited to persons who can be generalized in such a way? Or, perhaps it is you who fails to perceive and acknowledge the abilities of others? For god's sake, just show some tact.

What percentage of the student population, or should I say possible student populations does those schools you refer to represent? You say I can't say something but you can. Now, I was talking about kids in the Kampungs. Many never see graduations and stated a couple reasons. Do you deny those reasons? I stated that parents too are to blame for the problems. Do you deny that?

Say what you may but yes in deed. Indonesia has a problem with allowing kids to dream, imagine, think openly and critically. Did i say all? I don't think so but I will say this. A lot more face those problems then don't. Tell me the kids in Islamic boarding schools think critically and with open minds. Or are you saying they do, just always have to have closed mouths. Maybe when they get out they can show everyone. They still teach on the memorization method and that is primarily to get ready for an exam. Tell me again how creative they become with that? Sorry Happy man. Those are my feelings based on the people I have met and interacted with. Feelings based on talking to University students on down to elementary. I have even spoken to them from many different cities. Evidently, I must have missed Bangdung.

By the way. Just because you know some creative kids, we should let all those that are not just sit on the street waiting for time to go by. Sorry, I'll be vocal. You can be quiet.

 

[rabbit_39]

Ah, here we go again. Your posts would be easier to tolerate if you were simply a troll, but I guess that characterization wouldn't fit, as you obviously believe the crap you say wholeheartedly. Pretty sad that you seem to be stuck (?) living in a country for which you have so little appreciation for it and for its people ... though you do seem to feel some pity for them, as it's not really COMPLETELY their own fault that they are so backward-thinking, ignorant, etc etc ... or is it? Anyway, yeah, sad for you ... wishing you to "relax and enjoy" your life in Indonesia, rabbit! wink wink

The above is in response to my sentence :
If I see any reason for Indonesians to be patriotic and have pride in their country

Yep I meant it. Not necessarily to be demeaning, but to really look at what it means to be Indonesian and what to be proud about.

Vast beautiful natural resources.... Ruined by senseless mining, heck even popular hiking routes are full of garbage.

Soccer team.... Umm yeah

Pancasila.... We just talked about the police (or whatever government unit they are) harassing a woman preparing food to sell during Ramadan

Banking sector... Yeah, why can't the payment systems be integrated to allow cross bank transaction? At the toll road and bus way they only allow a particular banking system to work.

So in your opinion there's enough about Indonesia for Indonesians to be proud of? I don't think so, and apparently many Indonesians don't think so either judging by how much garbage they throw and burn. And by how much natural resources are squandered for individual gains. If Indonesians themselves aren't proud of their country in any meaningful ways, why should anyone else?

There was even news that a group of Japanese were cleaning up the streets during car free days.

And no, it's not pity. But I just want to see people with the potential to succeed to have the resources to meet their potential.

If we don't start with defining and measuring our performance, no matter how crappy it is, how can we analyze, improve and eventually control our performance and keep it high.

 

[fastpitch17]

Being Nationalistic or Patriotic, they are far from being anywhere close to each other.

 

[HappyMan]

I have not found an Indonesian educated student that has been taught the value of imagination, dreams, creative thinking, or independent thought. If they had any of these qualities, they seem to be stripped away at an early age. As far as schools go, if it isn't on the National Exam, you probably won't be told to memorize it.

What percentage of the student population, or should I say possible student populations does those schools you refer to represent? You say I can't say something but you can. Now, I was talking about kids in the Kampungs. Many never see graduations and stated a couple reasons. Do you deny those reasons? I stated that parents too are to blame for the problems. Do you deny that?

Say what you may but yes in deed. Indonesia has a problem with allowing kids to dream, imagine, think openly and critically. Did i say all? I don't think so but I will say this. A lot more face those problems then don't. Tell me the kids in Islamic boarding schools think critically and with open minds. Or are you saying they do, just always have to have closed mouths. Maybe when they get out they can show everyone. They still teach on the memorization method and that is primarily to get ready for an exam. Tell me again how creative they become with that? Sorry Happy man. Those are my feelings based on the people I have met and interacted with. Feelings based on talking to University students on down to elementary. I have even spoken to them from many different cities. Evidently, I must have missed Bangdung.

By the way. Just because you know some creative kids, we should let all those that are not just sit on the street waiting for time to go by. Sorry, I'll be vocal. You can be quiet.

You are a bit inconsistent here... First you haven't met any creative or imaginative Indonesians, not even any who were capable of independent thought. Then, you are talking about kids from the kampung, then you are telling me that you have met people from many cities (and found the same lack of creativity, etc, I suppose).

I won't deny that there are crap schools in Indonesia. I'll take that as a given, there are crap schools almost everywhere. I can't tell you that the good schools, the type of schools that we would want our kids to go to, are in the majority. I don't know, but I doubt very much that it would be true. However, I can still take offense when you, a person who has been here for years and had the opportunity to meet many, many, people, tell me that you have not met any creative, imaginative, independent thinking Indonesians. That is so clearly unlikely that it either indicates you to be no judge of these qualities, or to simply be biased against Indonesians. Sorry, I'm not going to hear you say that about the people here and not respond. You don't have to make a negative statement about an entire nation of people to make your point. You can complain and say that things need to change without being offensive. Other people have been doing so in this thread, you can too. Go ahead and give it a try.

 

[rabbit_39]

Being Nationalistic or Patriotic, they are far from being anywhere close to each other.

No reason to be either, in my opinion. I'm not a proponent of being patriotic to a country simply because that's where yo're born, or lived or worked or whatever.

Having said that, I realize that possibly that my point of view about being patriotic, about being tied to a country, or even having the feeling of "being home" is a bit skewed. I think that due to my life's circumstances I've not had the opportunity to develop the ability to call some place "home" and be patriotic about it without a logical reason.

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

Patriotism is far from what is being taught in any school here. Nationalism is the proper word for it. Patriotism is not taught, it is absorbed into the hearts.

It's been a while since I was in the public school system in the US as a student (since the early 80s, when I graduated from high school ... not including time in public universities and colleges subsequently), but in my experience and appraisal from a total of about nine years spent in those institutions, what we got in school was, to put it in your words, "not patriotism, but nationalism": pledge of allegiance, USA is great, greater and greatest, lainlain. American and World history classes and textbooks certainly glossed over most or many of American boo-boos and in some cases outright lied or "creatively" interpreted the "facts".

In other words, most of what we got was certainly nationalistic propaganda and in some cases essentially almost a form of brainwashing. So how do you reckon the case is any different with Indonesia, if you do in fact think it is so?

I don't fault my wife for having been influenced in her thinking by all her years in the Indonesian school system and all the nationalistic propaganda she absorbed there - maybe some of it true, certainly some of it not - because I was also subjected to many years of similar brainwave bombardment in and about my own country.

I may try to "correct" her thinking or at least give her food for thought and awareness of a different point of view about such things as, for example, the purges of 65 / 66, but if she remains entrenched in her thinking, I can at least understand why it is so.

The normalized practice of such propagandizing, promoting and pushing of nationalistic pride or "exceptionalism" however, does not preclude persons of whatever country having genuine reasons to feel proud of their country, its people, at least some parts of its history and accomplishments (of course, according to rabbit, in Indonesia's case there are simply no historical moments, characteristics, achievements or accomplishments to feel proud of ... but my wife and millions of other Indonesians seem to disagree, and you know what? Yeah, she knows the Indonesian national soccer team has been pretty crap ... but she still supports them anyway! Some like rabbit might call that simple stupidity or lack of logical thinking. To me it is more an indication of some of typical Indonesian characteristic like patience, tolerance and forgiveness.

 

[Nimbus]

While I understand the desire to impart a sense of nationalism to your kids, I personally believe it's far more important to help them figure out who they are as unique individuals. I value critical thinking above all else. Knowledge can be acquired at any moment and skills can be learned, but today the inability to make sense of all the information floating around is a serious handicap. Not everything that people write or say is correct and valuable, even if it's on school textbooks, particularly Indonesian school textbooks.

In my line of work a lot of knowledge can become obsolete in a short amount of time. Not much that I learned 10 years ago remains relevant to my job today, let alone stuff from school 2-3 decades ago. What keeps me functional is my ability and willingness to learn new things every day, essentially reinventing myself professionally (sometimes personally) to keep up with the market and the world.

 

[rabbit_39]

Pak AM: Simply supporting something not based on a real reason seems awful close to something else....

Let's talk the Indonesian soccer team as an example to continue the theme. I have no problems with your wife (or anyone else) supporting the Indonesian soccer team. But if I ask "why do you support them?" and there is no logical answer other than "because they're Indonesian", then yea I think it's not logical.

I do realize that Indonesia may have something, one or two things, in its history or current context or whatever that it can be proud of. But in general, even its own citizens don't have real pride in the country other than to create chaos.

I remember building my first bicycle out of scrap parts. I was so proud of it, and it was crappy. But I paid for everything with my own money (or free) and I built it with my two hands, and that's why I was proud of it. And you know what, since I was truly proud of it, not just lip service, I took care of it.

If Indonesians in general (not all, just many who I've met and/or seen) are really proud of their country as a whole, they wouldn't throw garbage out where they stand. They'd take care of the beaches, mountains, and other natural treasures they have.

My whole point (more than one actually but here's the main one) with my original sentence is simply:
>> Why are you proud of Indonesia? What is it about Indonesia that makes you proud. If people can answer this in earnest, that's great for that person. The more the merrier. Each Indonesian should have a real reason (or many) to be proud of Indonesia. Not just lip service, and not just "because it's Indonesia, my country"

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

I have not found an Indonesian educated student that has been taught the value of imagination, dreams, creative thinking, or independent thought. If they had any of these qualities, they seem to be stripped away at an early age. As far as schools go, if it isn't on the National Exam, you probably won't be told to memorize it.

My wife went through the Indonesian government school system from the late 1970's to the early 90's and on to get a degree from a vocational college. She also studied tajweed di kampung getting her fingers slapped with a ruler for mispronouncing the words, nevertheless she is chock full of imagination, dreams, creative thinking and independent / critical thinking. Her Indonesian education did not "strip away" those qualities from her at all. Maybe she is just truly exceptional, I dunno.

 

[fastpitch17]

Pak AM, true, America has it faults but, when I went to school there it seemed that they, while made some mistakes during their short history, were still able to admit their mistakes and even if some people didn't do that, it was still offered to students to learn about. Maybe in your time they have decided that you shouldn't learn something or the other for some reason. Don't know why that is.

I don't ever remember the US forcing a million people to take good citizenship courses to learn how to love your country that included understanding weapons.

You and I have disagreed on many things over the years and in all likelihood will continue to do so. You love to take a bit here and a bit there that someone says and run it all together to make an argument. Sorry, play your games without me. Go report me for being a big nasty ass in my comments and your thin skin gets hurt once again. Sorry, you can play with yourself.

 

[Pak Asam Manis]

Pak AM: Simply supporting something not based on a real reason seems awful close to something else....

Let's talk the Indonesian soccer team as an example to continue the theme. I have no problems with your wife (or anyone else) supporting the Indonesian soccer team. But if I ask "why do you support them?" and there is no logical answer other than "because they're Indonesian", then yea I think it's not logical.

I do realize that Indonesia may have something, one or two things, in its history or current context or whatever that it can be proud of. But in general, even its own citizens don't have real pride in the country other than to create chaos.

I remember building my first bicycle out of scrap parts. I was so proud of it, and it was crappy. But I paid for everything with my own money (or free) and I built it with my two hands, and that's why I was proud of it. And you know what, since I was truly proud of it, not just lip service, I took care of it.

If Indonesians in general (not all, just many who I've met and/or seen) are really proud of their country as a whole, they wouldn't throw garbage out where they stand. They'd take care of the beaches, mountains, and other natural treasures they have.

My whole point (more than one actually but here's the main one) with my original sentence is simply:
>> Why are you proud of Indonesia? What is it about Indonesia that makes you proud. If people can answer this in earnest, that's great for that person. The more the merrier. Each Indonesian should have a real reason (or many) to be proud of Indonesia. Not just lip service, and not just "because it's Indonesia, my country"

RAbbit, you may not realize it, but we have had this "conversation" before and I'm not foolish enough to expect a rabbit to change it's , er, stripes.

Your Spock-like reliance on "logic", as always, underwhelms me. Logic certainly has its place, but so do intangibles which defy logic (let's just call them "magical properties" to be concise).

So you admit that "Indonesia may have one or two things, in its history or current context, to be proud of". Rabbit! Are you getting soft in your old age?

I understand your point. Mine is that you should really try to lighten up just a bit on Indonesians and their country. Sure there are huge problems and issues and many of them are created or at least often seem to be made worse, not better, by Indonesian government actions or inactions and even, to some extent, those of the Indonesian people as a whole. I'll go so far as to stipulate these things, in general.

But you say that neither the Indonesian governments nor the people themselves - at least not all the ones you personally know or can observe - are really even trying to make things better. Therefore, "they deserve what they get, and they get what they deserve", right?

I just find this attitude to be harsh and depressing, myself, even if there is some degree of truth in it, and it seems sad for someone to live in a country which they seem to view so negatively.