Muslim marriage for foreigners - cultural question

[marcus]

... I am firm in my decision not to do it ... They need to understand that I am bule and have also my own way of doing things ... My approach would be to meet them first and then see how it goes but of course be firm in my decision not to do the procedure. She is panicking thoigh that she has to go against her family if her father doesn’t approve of that (and the marriage).

I first did think it was not mandatory , but after checking in the internet , it seems that in Indonesia most Muslims consider it mandatory . So if you intend to sincerely tell her father that you will not do it , I think that you two should expect a possibility to lose all relations with your fiancée's father and some others in her family . It may be very hard to her .

I did hear 2 cases in my city where the majority of the women's family did cut relations with them after they married with men (1 foreigner , 1 Indonesian) of a different religion . I guess this is not common , but it can happen .

 

[jstar]

We all know there are different interpretations and that hadiths can contradict each other. Think about the hijab and burka, keeping and touching dogs, pee while standing, polygamy, etc. etc. We don’t really need internet for that, do we?

 

[jstar]

Btw, this was the reason our son broke up with his -extremely pretty and smart- Sundanese girlfriend. She was convinced all ties with her family would be broken if he would not convert. That was not an option.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Yeah I know about the name change stuff and it’s whatever to me, I won’t actually legally do it and communicated that

I never converted and her family didn't object (they could see the money coming later on I guess), but to be honest Islam has proven a problem throughout our marriage. Just wait till you have children, it gets way worse. Since your gf has very conservative parents and is asking you to carry out self mutilation (what would they say if you insisted she gets a nose job as a condition of marriage?), my suggestion would be that unless you will take her to your country permanently it would be better to save a lifetime of stress and walk away. You are marrying the family and they are clearly uneducated \ dysfunctional. (Maybe when you go there and meet them in real life everything will be fine)

 

[Helpful Herbert]

I was thinking, they can't be that conservative if their daughter doesn't even practice islam. Maybe she does and hides it from you, or it's dormant and will re-emerge after marriage? That's kind of what happened to me.

 

[serious_fun]

Get married overseas.

Register the marriage at an Indonesian consulate.

End of story.

 

[centurion]

Get married overseas.

Register the marriage at an Indonesian consulate.

End of story.

That loophole does not exist anymore.

 

[joe60]

Halo guys,

I’m 32M from Germany, my fiancée is 28F from Indonesia. We’re planning to get married in Indonesia and her family are conservative muslims living in TangSel near Jakarta, while my fiancee herself is very liberal and doesn't live with her parents anymore so she is not under their constant surveillance. I grew up Protestant. Her parents know about our relationship and are generally supportive and it was established early that when it comes to marriage it would be a Muslim ceremony.

She’s Muslim (as per her KTP at least, but doesn't actually practice it), and I’m totally fine with converting so we can do things properly, respect her family and make them happy. No issue there.

BUT her family is also saying I need to get circumcised before marriage… and that’s where I’m stuck. I understand the cultural significance and everybody is free to do what they think is right, but I have my own thoughts about that and decided for me that I don't want to do it as an adult.

It’s a big deal for me, and I just don’t feel comfortable with it at all. My fiancée herself is fine with me NOT doing it, but her family is pretty serious about it.

So I’m trying to figure out what’s actually real vs just cultural pressure:

• Is circumcision actually required for adult converts in Indonesia?
• Or is it more like “old-school family expectation” thing?
• Would the KUA or whoever registers the marriage even care / check this stuff?
• Do foreign guys usually get away without it, or is this a hard requirement in practice?
• She says the main issue is getting her father's blessing. In the absolute worst case, what can be done about that?

I’m just trying to understand if this is a real rule or just family pressure before things get more complicated.

Any input from Indonesians or people who’ve been through similar stuff would be really appreciated.

Makasi banyak

I am European, Catholic Christian, married an Indonesia Muslim woman. Because there is not civil court in Indonesia, only Muslim, we decided to be marry in Singapore by civil. Anyone can do it, even tourist. Not you as a German, not her, need any visa. Then, you have to register the marriage in any Indonesian Embassy (we did in Singapore too) BTW I didn't have to circumcised. Family of my wife is from Java, very traditional too, but in Indonesia to be marry to white European (a bule) is considerate a good thing. Father's blessing could be a concern but I am sure that if you have economic means, showing that you have resources, a good job, mitigating financial risks, you will be fine.

• father's blessing.

 

[DerKauz]

I finally got the time to view the new responses that came in, thanks guys. We had a very long talk about everything a couple of days ago.

I never converted and her family didn't object (they could see the money coming later on I guess), but to be honest Islam has proven a problem throughout our marriage. Just wait till you have children, it gets way worse. Since your gf has very conservative parents and is asking you to carry out self mutilation (what would they say if you insisted she gets a nose job as a condition of marriage?), my suggestion would be that unless you will take her to your country permanently it would be better to save a lifetime of stress and walk away. You are marrying the family and they are clearly uneducated \ dysfunctional. (Maybe when you go there and meet them in real life everything will be fine)

Yes, the thing about children is clear to us as well. She has made clear to me that her parents will not have a say in how we would raise children or live our lives. Her being much more liberal than her parents is also the biggest reason that she says that she doesn't want to live close to them so they are less involved in our lives. She wants it to be more of a visiting once a year kind of thing.

Also, my fiancee never asked me to do the circumcision, she completely stands by my decision of absolutely not wanting to do it.

I was thinking, they can't be that conservative if their daughter doesn't even practice islam. Maybe she does and hides it from you, or it's dormant and will re-emerge after marriage? That's kind of what happened to me.

Well from her telling they are that conservative, which is also a big reason for their disagreements. I find it unrealistic that she has been hiding it from me for over two years we've been together (and we've known each other a bit longer). She never wears a hijab (and hasn't for many years before we met), drinks alcohol, smokes, never goes to the mosque etc. Stranger things have happened but again, I find it highly unlikely.

Get married overseas.

Register the marriage at an Indonesian consulate.

End of story.

From my research that would be a possibility.

That loophole does not exist anymore.

Does it not? I looked it up a couple of days ago and I saw that still works just fine. Can you give me a source on that?

Anyway, so to make things a bit clearer: On Sunday her sister (who is very much in line with her parents) asked her if she knows if I am circumcised (they all think we haven't slept together yet). Her sister also mentioned that it would probably be important to their parents if I convert. My fiancee answered to her that she asked me about that and that I said that I am (so we're just gonna lie). This answer is also realistic since I am white but half of my family is from a country where circumcision is more common than in Western Europe. We had a long talk about how we will do it and agreed that we will basically fake it to her parents. She will also (before I meet them) explain to them that they need to be very careful about cultural differences (I'd be the first bule they meet seriously) and to absolutely not do anything that could make western people feel weird or embarrassed (i.e. asking extremely insensitive questions or - god-forbid - any dick inspections). Also, she will basically sell it to her parents that they should think about how nice they will look in front of the people at the mosque and PRT when they turn up with their bule son-in-law. Again, I have no problem of going to the mosque once a year with my in-laws to keep the peace. She will tell them that if they mess it up that she is also ready to get married without them; so kudos to her that she is brave enough to stand up to them in this way.

 

[snpark]

You already on the slippery slope my friend

 

[DerKauz]

You already on the slippery slope my friend

Can you elaborate? As it stands, that is not helpful.

 

[snpark]

Sure. Lying to in-laws. Agreeing to this and that.

Just stand your ground and say you respect the culture and their religion and you already agreed to convert to keep them happy but that's the lot and if they keep pushing them as much as you live their daughter and want to give her a better life, that if they keep pressuring her or you then you will just walk away.
Maybe Dad will respect your strength.

But hiding and lying about stuff is never a good idea or start to a marriage.

Sorry just my opinion.

They might even lose a daughter too

 

[Helpful Herbert]

One important consideration, I'm not sure if you have mentioned it before, is the financial situation of her family. If they are poor or lower middle class then you could potentially have a long list of things that you have to pay for over the years, some religion-related and some not, depending on how strong your wife is in keeping the family in check with their money requests. Examples:
-paying for in-laws to go on Umroh
-paying for a cow to be slaughtered at idul adha
-covering the full cost of various family funerals including buying the burial plot
-paying for their medical costs as they age (check if they have BPJS)
-paying for various siblings as they go through difficulties in life and run out of money
-paying their flights to visit you
Etc etc