Muslim marriage for foreigners - cultural question

[DerKauz]

Halo guys,

I’m 32M from Germany, my fiancée is 28F from Indonesia. We’re planning to get married in Indonesia and her family are conservative muslims living in TangSel near Jakarta, while my fiancee herself is very liberal and doesn't live with her parents anymore so she is not under their constant surveillance. I grew up Protestant. Her parents know about our relationship and are generally supportive and it was established early that when it comes to marriage it would be a Muslim ceremony.

She’s Muslim (as per her KTP at least, but doesn't actually practice it), and I’m totally fine with converting so we can do things properly, respect her family and make them happy. No issue there.

BUT her family is also saying I need to get circumcised before marriage… and that’s where I’m stuck. I understand the cultural significance and everybody is free to do what they think is right, but I have my own thoughts about that and decided for me that I don't want to do it as an adult.

It’s a big deal for me, and I just don’t feel comfortable with it at all. My fiancée herself is fine with me NOT doing it, but her family is pretty serious about it.

So I’m trying to figure out what’s actually real vs just cultural pressure:

• Is circumcision actually required for adult converts in Indonesia?
• Or is it more like “old-school family expectation” thing?
• Would the KUA or whoever registers the marriage even care / check this stuff?
• Do foreign guys usually get away without it, or is this a hard requirement in practice?
• She says the main issue is getting her father's blessing. In the absolute worst case, what can be done about that?

I’m just trying to understand if this is a real rule or just family pressure before things get more complicated.

Any input from Indonesians or people who’ve been through similar stuff would be really appreciated.

Makasi banyak

 

[snpark]

The procedure itself is swift and painless and actually more hygienic and aestheticly better so don't worry about that

Do they check? When I converted it was not even mentioned or bought up as a topic. Either they assumed or my slutty GF at the time 2009 told them she'd already seen it lol. Bad girl.

So not sure. Maybe your gf can just ease the path and tell her family you will do it in Europe when you go there next time or something like that.

It honestly shouldn't be such a big deal. But if it becomes one then it's a problem for your GF because she will have to choose between you and her family. Her family will be expecting your support in the future so maybe she can tell them you not happy and talking about breaking up etc. You already convert for her and that's enough and then see how quickly the subject is not mentioned again

Most Imam and mosques are relatively understanding and I've never heard of any really pushing hard no pun on this as a factor. They all love to enlist a bule to the brotherhood. Next he will be expecting you to lead prayers every week lol

Don't worry. Just tell her firmly once. No. And that's it.

But actually it's worth doing for the health reasons. Can even be done with a local anaesthetic

For what it's worth I was chopped in 1978 in Odstock hospital in UK before I started at boarding school in 79 purely for health reasons cleanliness etc.

In fact my first year in school I whipped the old boy out in history one day to proudly show it off to my class mates.

Mr Wilson told me that's not really the thing to do. 6 of the best with the plimsoll gym shoe convinced me also. That size 11 Dunlop Green flash stung. Mr Morton had a black version Black Bessy for serious crimes lol

 

[DerKauz]

The procedure itself is swift and painless and actually more hygienic and aestheticly better so don't worry about that

Do they check? When I converted it was not even mentioned or bought up as a topic. Either they assumed or my slutty GF at the time 2009 told them she'd already seen it lol. Bad girl.

So not sure. Maybe your gf can just ease the path and tell her family you will do it in Europe when you go there next time or something like that.

It honestly shouldn't be such a big deal. But if it becomes one then it's a problem for your GF because she will have to choose between you and her family. Her family will be expecting your support in the future so maybe she can tell them you not happy and talking about breaking up etc. You already convert for her and that's enough and then see how quickly the subject is not mentioned again

Most Imam and mosques are relatively understanding and I've never heard of any really pushing hard no pun on this as a factor. They all love to enlist a bule to the brotherhood. Next he will be expecting you to lead prayers every week lol

Don't worry. Just tell her firmly once. No. And that's it.

But actually it's worth doing for the health reasons. Can even be done with a local anaesthetic

For what it's worth I was chopped in 1978 in Odstock hospital in UK before I started at boarding school in 79 purely for health reasons cleanliness etc.

In fact my first year in school I whipped the old boy out in history one day to proudly show it off to my class mates.

Mr Wilson told me that's not really the thing to do. 6 of the best with the plimsoll gym shoe convinced me also. That size 11 Dunlop Green flash stung. Mr Morton had a black version Black Bessy for serious crimes lol

Thank you. I have decided for myself that I will definitely not have the procedure done though for my own reasons and frankly in my eyes it’s ridiculous to demand that of someone. Her parents also need to accept that I am a bule that has his own way of doing things.

 

[jstar]

I’ve seen quite some case in which “no problem, my GF/fiancé is very liberal” was used as an argument and the conversion was ‘nothing but a formality’.

And a couple of years later the hijab was introduced, she was fasting at Ramadan and it was expected from the hubby not to drink his beer and eat his pork chops anymore.

Not to say that will be you of course. Also depends where you will live and your social circles.

 

[Pak Tani]

Have you met her parents, do they know you and how serious you are about becoming a good husband for their daughter? As a conservative father he must feel it his duty to make sure that his daughter is marrying a Muslim who is serious about his religion. Maybe they measure your sincerity by your willingness to undergo a circumcision? There are other ways of proving this, I think. If you haven't yet, try to build up a relationship with her father, gain her parents' trust and show them how serious you are. Learn a bit about Islam, tawheed and 'aqeedah etc.
Circumcision is obligatory in Islam, but on the grand scheme of things many things are more important. Just tell them that you feel not ready for it yet and will do it as soon as you are.

 

[harryopal1]

To make my wife's mother happy, after a simple civil ceremony, we later had a marriage service in a Masjid. No questions about circumcision then or later with the family.

I don't buy Snpark's notion that it is aesthetically better. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and have never had a concern as to how pretty or otherwise is the naughty bit. There was a movement developed some years ago with men who had been circumcized trying to reclaim their foreskin by pulling and stretching the left over bits. Part of the reason being the loss of sensitivity with the member being uncovered and rubbing against clothing over the years.

You might also suggest to the family or father that this is a private, personal matter and you wish to discuss it no further. See how that goes down.

 

[marcus]

1. Is circumcision actually required for adult converts in Indonesia?

I became a Muslim in Indonesia without anybody asking about circumcision . Also in almost 20 years in the Forums for expats in Indonesia , I don't remember of any case where this subject was a problem .

2. Or is it more like “old-school family expectation” thing?

I don't know .

3. Would the KUA or whoever registers the marriage even care / check this stuff?

I married twice in the KUA + had 2 (real) 'nikah siri'(unregistered marriages) , nobody asked me about .

4. Do foreign guys usually get away without it, or is this a hard requirement in practice?

I didn't do and knew few other cases where people did not circumcised too .

5. She says the main issue is getting her father's blessing. In the absolute worst case, what can be done about that?

KUA requires a 'Wali' (Guardian) for your future wife's marriage , usually her father .
But if he doesn't agree , you & your future wife can ask her grandfather , uncle , ... (other options , see below) .

---------------------------------------

From https://www.hukumonline.com/klinik/a/ayah-tidak-mau-menikahkan-anaknya-lt564954454ad24/
Title : Options If a Father Doesn't Want to Marry His Daughter - free translation
By Tri Jata Ayu Pramesti, S.H. (S.H. = Sarjana Hukum/Bachelor of Laws)

... In Islam, it is obligatory for a father to marry off his child. However, if the father is unwilling to allow his daughter to marry off, you can do the following :

1) Prioritize the Lineage Guardian
If the father, who is supposed to conduct the marriage, is absent or unknown, you can prioritize the lineage guardian as your marriage guardian.

The lineage guardian consists of four groups in order of rank, each group taking precedence over the others based on their close kinship with the prospective bride. These groups are:

First, the group of male relatives in the direct ascending line: the father, paternal grandfather, and so on.
Second, the group of relatives of biological brothers, or half-brothers, and their male descendants.
Third, the group of uncles, namely the father's biological brothers, half-brothers, and their male descendants.
Fourth, the group of grandfather's biological brothers, half-brothers, and their male descendants.
.....

 

[marcus]

... But actually it's worth doing for the health reasons ...

From https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/circumcision
.....
According to the AAP (The American Academy of Pediatrics):

• Problems with the penis (such as irritation) can happen with or without circumcision.
• There is no difference in health and cleanliness (hygiene) with or without circumcision, as long as a child can handle cleaning and care ...

For what it's worth I was chopped in 1978 in Odstock hospital in UK ...

From https://www.nhs.uk/tests-and-treatments/circumcision/ (UK's Government website)
.....
Circumcision is usually only offered when other treatments have not worked or it's the only option ...

 

[centurion]

Halo guys,

I’m 32M from Germany, my fiancée is 28F from Indonesia. We’re planning to get married in Indonesia and her family are conservative muslims living in TangSel near Jakarta, while my fiancee herself is very liberal and doesn't live with her parents anymore so she is not under their constant surveillance. I grew up Protestant. Her parents know about our relationship and are generally supportive and it was established early that when it comes to marriage it would be a Muslim ceremony.

She’s Muslim (as per her KTP at least, but doesn't actually practice it), and I’m totally fine with converting so we can do things properly, respect her family and make them happy. No issue there.

BUT her family is also saying I need to get circumcised before marriage… and that’s where I’m stuck. I understand the cultural significance and everybody is free to do what they think is right, but I have my own thoughts about that and decided for me that I don't want to do it as an adult.

It’s a big deal for me, and I just don’t feel comfortable with it at all. My fiancée herself is fine with me NOT doing it, but her family is pretty serious about it.

So I’m trying to figure out what’s actually real vs just cultural pressure:

• Is circumcision actually required for adult converts in Indonesia?
• Or is it more like “old-school family expectation” thing?
• Would the KUA or whoever registers the marriage even care / check this stuff?
• Do foreign guys usually get away without it, or is this a hard requirement in practice?
• She says the main issue is getting her father's blessing. In the absolute worst case, what can be done about that?

I’m just trying to understand if this is a real rule or just family pressure before things get more complicated.

Any input from Indonesians or people who’ve been through similar stuff would be really appreciated.

Makasi banyak

There is no requirement for circumcision or name change, and your fiancee is already 28 which is pretty old age for marriage in Indonesia, so stupid requirements should not be imposed or asked.

 

[snpark]

Perhaps it was just child abuse for me then. Chop off half his dick. Luckily when the nurse gave me sponge bath clean the stitches it would grow back. And spit if agitated lol. So maybe that's when I turned into Benny Hill

 

[Hawk256]

There is no requirement for circumcision or name change, and your fiancee is already 28 which is pretty old age for marriage in Indonesia, so stupid requirements should not be imposed or asked.

While most scholars will agree with not needing a name change, they are not so uniform on whether or not circumcision is required. Telling the woman's family that an Internet forum told you that you really don't have to be circumcised in Islam will go over like a lead ballon. According to most scholars, you absolutely do and the family is not likely to change their mind on the subject. To the OP: If you start pretending to be something you are not, you are just digging a hole for yourself that one day you will have to climb out of.

 

[El_Goretto]

Moderatio note:

I've removed a number of posts from a user giving his unsolicited and disrespectful judgment. As a warning to others, if you have nothing useful to contribute, it will be a deletion and potentially a ban (because now you've been warned).

 

[El_Goretto]

In response to OP: as Snpark mentioned, I also agree that the choosing the path of least resistance is the best way. Be very clear about it with your fiancée that you won't do it but let the parents believe you've done it, even if you haven't. I also have never heard of any foreigner being checked physically.

But if it comes to this, that someone actually demands to see your uncut manhood, then it would unfortunately be a massive red flag and preview of further unreasonable demands.

As for a painless procedure? I don't know, as I haven't done it, but I know of a foreigner who did it for the purpose of marrying his Indonesian wife and it was all but painless despite being reassured it would be. So your mileage may vary...

 

[DerKauz]

While most scholars will agree with not needing a name change, they are not so uniform on whether or not circumcision is required. Telling the woman's family that an Internet forum told you that you really don't have to be circumcised in Islam will go over like a lead ballon. According to most scholars, you absolutely do and the family is not likely to change their mind on the subject. To the OP: If you start pretending to be something you are not, you are just digging a hole for yourself that one day you will have to climb out of.

Thank you. Yes, I am fine with a ceremony to make the parents happy but this goes way too far for me. I know it’s important to keep up appearances for the community but my bodily autonomy is not up for discussion.

 

[DerKauz]

In response to OP: as Snpark mentioned, I also agree that the choosing the path of least resistance is the best way. Be very clear about it with your fiancée that you won't do it but let the parents believe you've done it, even if you haven't. I also have never heard of any foreigner being checked physically.

But if it comes to this, that someone actually demands to see your uncut manhood, then it would unfortunately be a massive red flag and preview of further unreasonable demands.

As for a painless procedure? I don't know, as I haven't done it, but I know of a foreigner who did it for the purpose of marrying his Indonesian wife and it was all but painless despite being reassured it would be. So your mileage may vary...

Thank you. I am firm in my decision not to do it. Instead, the main issue will be to also demand (mitual) respect for my lifestyle and decisions. They need to understand that I am bule and have also my own way of doing things.

 

[DerKauz]

Have you met her parents, do they know you and how serious you are about becoming a good husband for their daughter? As a conservative father he must feel it his duty to make sure that his daughter is marrying a Muslim who is serious about his religion. Maybe they measure your sincerity by your willingness to undergo a circumcision? There are other ways of proving this, I think. If you haven't yet, try to build up a relationship with her father, gain her parents' trust and show them how serious you are. Learn a bit about Islam, tawheed and 'aqeedah etc.
Circumcision is obligatory in Islam, but on the grand scheme of things many things are more important. Just tell them that you feel not ready for it yet and will do it as soon as you are.

No, they haven’t met me yet but it is planned soon. My approach would be to meet them first and then see how it goes but of course be firm in my decision not to do the procedure. She is panicking thoigh that she has to go against her family if her father doesn’t approve of that (and the marriage).

 

[snpark]

No, they haven’t met me yet but it is planned soon. My approach would be to meet them first and then see how it goes but of course be firm in my decision not to do the procedure. She is panicking thoigh that she has to go against her family if her father doesn’t approve of that (and the marriage).

Just don't mention it then and suggest to her it's also not bought up again

As for name change I already had one picked, my own name in Arabic with a Mohammed thrown in to keep them happy

I got a certificate too, very official looking, legally I am a Muslim I suppose I could even change my name at the bank and passport, but I haven't and won't

 

[DerKauz]

Just don't mention it then and suggest to her it's also not bought up again

As for name change I already had one picked, my own name in Arabic with a Mohammed thrown in to keep them happy

I got a certificate too, very official looking, legally I am a Muslim I suppose I could even change my name at the bank and passport, but I haven't and won't

Yeah I know about the name change stuff and it’s whatever to me, I won’t actually legally do it and communicated that

 

[Jaime C]

I’ve always found the whole conversion argument to be rather silly, no matter what religion is involved. I certainly wouldn’t force my wife to do it, and even the religion I was born into doesn’t matter to me.

I’m glad we got married outside of Indonesia.

 

[Hawk256]

No, they haven’t met me yet but it is planned soon. My approach would be to meet them first and then see how it goes but of course be firm in my decision not to do the procedure. She is panicking thoigh that she has to go against her family if her father doesn’t approve of that (and the marriage).

They will test you. You can plan on it. They will also likely check you out as much as they can short of hiring a private detective. I wouldn't count on her going against her father. Not saying it's impossible but very unlikely. She can't legally get married without his approval anyway in Indonesia as a Muslim.