Ministry of Agriculture Announces Intention To Ban Dog Meat Trade

Your post implied that your friend had first hand knowledge of cruelty; an impression created to support your view. He did not. You and the Daily Mail have something in common.
Anglian has a long history of honest posts, both here and in the old forum. I also think he had no agenda and was genuinely posting when he posted his friend's story. I think it's grossly unfair to compare him with the Daily Mail, a source we all know is certainly not the most reliable one can find and quote.
 
I was told the story as I say during a discussion about a dog meat shop I had passed while wandering around Guangzhou, the shop was not a pretty site,several headless skinned dogs standing, yes standing in the shop front their heads set on the walls around the shop like trophy’s, not a pretty site for a dog lover to see, my friend explained how they were slaughtered, that the more they were beaten and howled the tastier the meat, he said he never ate dog meat, I’ve seen kittens for sale to be eaten too, there isn’t anything some Chinese don’t eat, eating reptile during the winter warms the blood, a mouse in a bottle of some liquid refreshes all parts,
It was interesting to read that many people have died eating rabid dogs, not for me to change people’s customs and eating habits as much as I don’t like the idea
 
Anglian has a long history of honest posts, both here and in the old forum. I also think he had no agenda and was genuinely posting when he posted his friend's story. I think it's grossly unfair to compare him with the Daily Mail, a source we all know is certainly not the most reliable one can find and quote.

I agree with Atlantis that Anglian's intentions were not to spread misinformation. It may or may not be an urban legend (I've heard the story as well), but expressing doubt politely without the snark remark would have been much more appropriate.

I'd also like to add that us French people eat all sorts of pets too including horses and rabbits. Is it wrong? It isn't to me but I can understand how it can be revolting to others.

I know it sucks and fundamentaly it's probably a bit hypocritical but I am able to disassociate the pets from the meat in the sense that I don't mind eating it. I try not to think about this too much or the way animals are slaughtered (even beef and pork) because it makes me feel bad and guilty. I realize there are some contradictions in the above but it's difficult to reconciliate the two.
 
Also for the record, and at the risk of being accused of bias, I disagree with @Pak Asam Manis that Atlantis is a cold heartless drone. Like I said, I understand that there are things that we can disassociate. Some people can and some people can't. But there's also the conditioning where Atlantis goes to the market regularly and is somewhat used to it whereas a tourist visitor will probably be traumatized at first.

It's like when I see a bit of blood, especially my own, I'm moments away from passing out. Whereas my wife who's dealt with this for many years as a doctor is not the least moved by it. Does that make her a cold heartless person?

A lot has been said about the topic of dog meat trading and the veracity of some claims already and I don't have much to add to it except that this topic and the other, even if flawed to some extent are still useful to bring some awareness to the mistreatment of animals. It may not happen on the scales suggested but I'm sure it must happen somewhere because humans are horrible beings.

I just wished we could talk about these topics without the bickering, name calling and snark remarks.
 
Rabbits, I forgot about pet rabbits, my daughter when she was young had a pet rabbit, whilst in the States I was wandering around Chicago as I do and I past the Boy Scout shop of America I noticed a book in the window about care of rabbits, so I went in and bought it, I didn’t look in the book, when I got home I gave it to my daughter, about ten minutes later she was back with the book very upset, the book it appears was actually about breeding rabbits to eat, that I’m afraid upset her a bit as her rabbit wasn’t for eating
 
I also have never heard anyone eating dog meat associating strike and tenderness of meat. It would be by the way ridiculous because whatever you do, dog meat is NEVER tender or even tasty. If you really interrogate people, what they crave about is more the taste of the bumbu/spices, associated to the meat.

Good. Ikan tuna "rica rica" is sold in cans in swalayan in SumUt Jakarta, Balikpapan to my personal knowledge, and probably across most of Indonesia. It is surely much more tasty than tough, stringy dog meat so they can just switch on to that. Just tell people that it has all the same "magical properties" which they apparently think about dog meat. It should make sense as none of that has any basis in proven fact, as far as I know. Of course it may be followed by an increase in calls to prevent the cruelty to tuna, but that's just the way it goes. (Tahu can be cooked in rica rica, too).
 
Also for the record, and at the risk of being accused of bias, I disagree with @Pak Asam Manis that Atlantis is a cold heartless drone. Like I said, I understand that there are things that we can disassociate. Some people can and some people can't. But there's also the conditioning where Atlantis goes to the market regularly and is somewhat used to it whereas a tourist visitor will probably be traumatized at first.

I most certainly did not call Atlantis a "drone", and not sure what you mean by the term, because when used in the noun form I just think of a kind of remote-controlled plane, which usually spies on and / or drops bombs on people. I never accused him of such activities. As far as cold and heartless, well two things which can be pretty obvious: 1) I don't know know him personally or in any way other the words he puts on the screen (and vice versa); 2) I can't see his face when he's producing those words, much less see into his thought process or his heart. but: having just consulted with Roxane, the beautiful, well cared for and perfectly safe (at the moment) Australian Shepherd who is at the moment laying at my feet, we agree that stating very matter of factly about how one has seen and "watched" dogs being killed at the market on a regular basis, with no other indication of feeling about this except to describe the manner in which they were killed, is disturbing to us and it gives us a pretty strong impression of a lack of the sort of feeling which we would HOPE to find in a human being. It means that I get the impression he is coldblooded and heartless, on this subject which I find on the other foot, very affecting.

I am sure he has oodles of heart and warm feeling about his own family and he even announced his very protective feelings towards his own family dog. He just doesn't seem to give a shit about all the dogs he doesn't personally know being killed for their meat. In fact, he pretty much said so himself.

It should be understood that when I said "You disgust me" I was reacting in the moment and I meant, what I am getting from you or understanding (or misunderstanding) from you at this moment is revolting or disgusting to me, not "I find everything I think I know about you to be completely disgusting in its totality". It's what people say sometimes when they feel disgusted by what someone has just said to them. I did feel that way and I said so.

A lot has been said about the topic of dog meat trading and the veracity of some claims already and I don't have much to add to it except that this topic and the other, even if flawed to some extent are still useful to bring some awareness to the mistreatment of animals. It may not happen on the scales suggested but I'm sure it must happen somewhere because humans are horrible beings.

Well, thanks. I'm not sure that you intended that as a tiny gesture of positive acknowledgment towards me but if so it would be, to my perception, the first positive "bone" that's been tossed my way in this thread.

The videos are real. They speak for themselves. Sure they are made by people who have an agenda, and that agenda is to stop the very real cruelties being inflicted to innocent animals. All of the criticisms about sources being incredible and making fun of The Daily Mail, to me are someone's way of distracting attention and turning away from that reality. Making stupid jokes is a more vulgar way of doing the same thing. But the dogs that these things happen to don't get to change the channel or talk about something else. Their reality becomes the plastic sack, being thrown in the truck, being terrified for the remaining hours of their lives and ending with a club to the head. They can't avoid it or fight back against it. If people don't try to help them, nobody will.

I just wished we could talk about these topics without the bickering, name calling and snark remarks.

I get caught up in the moment and sometimes I feel pretty strongly about my point of view (unlike some people, I guess). If that is true for other topics, it is exponentially more so for this. If one considers it in some sense "urgent" to try to help protect these animals, then it becomes a high stakes game. To those who don't, it seems "extreme" and some of the tactics used, admittedly, may sometimes go too far. But any bickering and "name calling" I've indulged in here is a byproduct of my frustration and my strong feelings. If people can't handle a few strong words being thrown at them, they should think about this: nobody is clubbing them in the head or throwing them in the back of a truck. So if a few harsh words make me cruel, I'll be cruel for what I consider a worthy cause. The real cruelty is in the videos, so go ahead, turn your heads and crack a few more jokes. (Not meaning you, E-G)
 
Just like Atlantis already taking the piss on the other thread I posted in what I assume he thinks is a subtle way.

You (Atlantis, SN_park, et cetera) couldn't make it any more obvious that you don't give a shit about the welfare or lack thereof of animals, as long as they are not your own pets. The message has been sent loud and clear.

Although it may be a small percentage of the population as a whole, there are many Indonesians who care about the health and safety of animals. My father in law is one of them, and his attitudes certainly predate the existence of any animal rights groups encouraged by "orang asing".

As I've said, I won't respond to negative comments on the other thread, so bash away and ruin the thread for those who might use it for a positive purpose otherwise. It's the only thing some of you do well, like throwing another plastic bottle in the ocean because you never cared anyway. You make it clear for all to see what you are.
 
Goats, no mention of these animals, some people have them as pets, my best friend at school had a goat as a pet, wandered around his house( much to my mums disgust) was on a lead, we used it playing matadors, it really could butt, anyway my friends uncle decided the family should have a holiday, a very rare happening in those days, I volunteered to look after the goat while he was away, No, he said it will be ok, off they went, after a couple of days I went round to see how the goat was getting on, Oh dear, shock, horror, the goat was dead, legs up in the air, being young and not knowing what to do in such a disaster I just left it till my pal came home, I saw the family return so I rushed round to give the bad news, we both went to the bottom of the garden to view the goat, now much bloated, it transpired the greedy goat had eaten it’s weeks fodder in one day, we both dug a big hole and buried it, he never had another goat as a pet
 
Last edited:
@Pak Asam Manis my bad, you did not call atlantis a drone, I was paraphrasing the part where you compared him to Spock. I could not remember exactly what you said and all I could think about was an entity devoid of emotion with a logic based decision making process. For all intent and purposes the term could have been drone or robot.

Anyway, others can speak for themselves but I haven't found someone who doesn't seem to care about animals in this thread. So your perception is different and that's fine but I also think that you are, to your own admission, way over reacting.

Maybe we're hypocrites for liking animals as a pet while accepting that they can also be consumed but I think it's equally hypocrite to only make a big deal about dogs being slaughtered while ignoring other animals like goats, rabbits, cows and pigs also being slaughtered for consumption. You will say that we can't compare dogs with pigs or cows but I'll say that it would be very unfair and kind of bringing your whole argument down. You think pigs are being slaughtered in any better way than dogs in those markets? That they don't have the same potential as dogs to be scared? I just think you have a cultural bias that you can't get out of. I don't blame you for having those emotions (I have them too) but at least try to recognize the unfairness of your argument before getting on your high horse and telling us how we're such horrible human beings.

My stance is that any animal is fair game for consumption but that as humans it is our duty to slaughter them with the least suffering possible.
 
We are odd creatures, we will take any animal as a pet, if is adaptable, most people have no idea what goes on in a slaughter house, so are quite happy to eat meat without giving a thought that this was an animal roaming free, well Libaran Haji is coming up, lots of animals being slaughtered, probably not in conditions we would regard as humane,but life goes on
 
indeed, and many of us more accepting that every year more than 20 billion chickens (not roaming free, mostly mass produced), being shackled upside down on a high speed mass killing machine conveyors and their throat are slit.
Or, some will enjoy expensive hobby to torture marlin and other fish for hours and then release them before die
 
Can I start a foie gras thread? How about Ortolan - that's the way to die!
Nom nom nom
 
Annie is our cook. A lovely and talented lady.

We have hired her a few months ago. She comes from Luwuk, Sulawesi Tengah, two provinces away from mine, like most of our household staff. She is a Christian and came to Manado, far away from her kampung at the age of 15 to look for a better chance at a fair life, considering that the salaries and job opportunities here, in the City, are much higher than in her region.

She is very shy and don't talk much about her, but it is easy to guess that she comes from a very poor background. She is normally off a day per week but has asked to still work in order to get some extra money, which we have accepted. Basically, she takes only a day off per month, the day after payday. She then run to the post office to send most (all?) of her salary back to the kampung to help her parents and siblings. She makes a bit over Rp 3 jt per month but she doesn't give the impression to keep any money for her

She is the kind of person I admire: hardworking, loyal, ambitious, willing to learn. I said she is talented: it is true. From the admission of all family members we have never eaten as well and varied than since she's been working for us. So far, cooking was the privilege of our maids. It was OK, but nothing to rave about and pretty much always the same thing. Annie, at the opposite, can cook Minahasan food, Indonesian food, Chinese food, European food and I taught her a few recipe of Thai and Indian food.

It is even more remarkable when you know that she cooks "blind", not tasting most of the dishes she cooks. We have given her no limit in the list of ingredients she can ask. We have taught her to use google to find recipes that I translate her when she finds one she'd like to try. She obviously loves to cook and and the result is always near perfect.

Since she started to work with us, I always compliment her, telling what is good and what should/could be improved. I always ask her if she had eaten some of it. Invariably the answer is negative and to my question "why" the answer is always the same chilling one: "Pa' kita nentau makang udang", "Pa' kita nentau makang kapiting", "Pa' kita nentau makang ikang manggael", "Pa' kita nentau makang ayam",...etc.

The use of the word "nentau" slaps you really hard in the face and remembers you, if necessary, that poverty is terrible.

Basically, it means "Pa, i don't know how to eat prawn/crab/most fine fish/chicken...etc. Basically it indirectly tells you that these have never been part of her diet from the time she was born to now. Annie has always fed herself with the cheapest fish (ikan deho whose price is on average Rp 15K per kg here), rice, boiled veggies such as daong gedi or daong ubi and a bit of tahu and tempe, from the time she born till now. Meat? Only pork, mostly fat, in rare festive occasion and... RW (it's the acronym used for dog meat) from time to time, during acara again. They are the only thing she knows to eat and it is too late for her to learn to have a different diet.

Is she unique for that? Unfortunately not. In my 18 years here I can say she is just like many of the people living in kampungs in the Minahasa. Ayam has become more popular, especially in the younger generation, but for many, eating chicken is still a luxury and definitely not part of their daily diet.

I have heard thousands (really) time this "kita nentau" anytime I have proposed to staff, friends, family, food which was "unusual". We, coming from the developed and rich world, can't understand what it is to have spent one life eating the same thing everyday, with a couple of meat product only once in a while.

Those who want to ban the dog meat will have to find a solution to help people learning to change their diet, after having told them that they could stick up their ass their traditions.

Sure we have had a "proposal" in the thread: Pak Asam said "Ikan tuna "rica rica" is sold in cans in swalayan in SumUt Jakarta, Balikpapan to my personal knowledge, and probably across most of Indonesia". A genius this Pak Asam Manis.

Jaysus Krist why those barbarians eating dogs didn't think about it before?

It's well known that 7/11, Alfamart and Indomaret all have swalayan in each and every kampung accross Indonesia, especially in Manado where Alfamart and Indomaret just appeared two years ago. At Rp 15.000 per can (that's the cheapest you would get around here for canned tuna in sauce and that's for crap) for a 170g can of food we are talking about a replacement food being close to Rp 90.000 per kg. I am impressed by your proposal, Pak Asam Manis.

Most of dog meat trade is not done in markets but from mouth to mouth, neighbors to neighbors, brothers to sisters...etc. If RW is sold at the moment Rp 40.000 per kg in markets, a full grown dog of 12 kg to 15 kg wouldn't be sold more than Rp 200.000 in a trading process between villagers. It doesn't require much brain to do the Maths and I am reasonably confident that even Pak Asam Manis may understand that the problem is perhaps more complex than what it may appear and why his proposal is ridiculous.
 
She makes a bit over Rp 3 jt per month but she doesn't give the impression to keep any money for her

She is the kind of person I admire: hardworking, loyal, ambitious, willing to learn. I said she is talented: it is true. From the admission of all family members we have never eaten as well and varied than since she's been working for us. So far, cooking was the privilege of our maids. It was OK, but nothing to rave about and pretty much always the same thing. Annie, at the opposite, can cook Minahasan food, Indonesian food, Chinese food, European food and I taught her a few recipe of Thai and Indian food.

She sounds lovely, can I have her phone number? I'd like to offer her 3.5 jt per month :tongue:
 
Well I am very, very late to this thread - I have been reading it in fits and starts, just too busy to post anything. But heaven forbid all of you should be deprived of my thoughts on the matter (admit it, everyone - you've only kept this thread alive in hopes that one day La Puspa would deign to tell you her thoughts). So, after reading the whole darn thread (which is quite a time-consuming exercise so I trust you all appreciate my devotion), I had several thoughts, in no particular order:

First, it seems entirely legitimate in this context to talk about cultural relativism. Yes, as Pak Asam Manis points out, the article he posted did indeed talk about INDONESIAN efforts to ban selling dog meat. But the vast majority of us posting here aren't Indonesian; we're foreigners. Thus, if we're discussing the matter on this forum, it's appropriate to offer a caveat. It is possible for me to have any reaction to an Indonesian-led initiative, from cheering it on to finding it horrifying. Wherever I fall along that continuum, it's a good thing to acknowledge that I'm passing MY value judgments on someone else's culture. It's a strength, not a weakness, in one's reasoning to be clear about that.

Yet there are indeed times when we shouldn't excuse or refuse to judge appalling behavior simply because we're not from the culture. A prime example is FGM (female genital mutilation). Understanding the cultural contexts in which it is performed may help those who are trying to stamp it out to find better ways of going about their task, but surely no civilized person would force themselves to accept FGM just because some other culture says it's okay.

So is eating dog one of those activities like FGM? For Pak Asam Manis, it is. For most others in this thread, it doesn't rise to that level. It's wonderful that we can have a discussion about it, though it saddens me how quickly comments devolved into ad hominem attacks. Believe me - and I'm not pointing the finger at any one poster here - insulting people never strengthens your argument, it just makes you look foolish.

Rambling on a bit, is it hypocritical to eat other kinds of meat, yet oppose the eating of dog? Some posters seem to think so, and it's certainly a defensible opinion. As for me, I'm not a vegetarian, but I do think eating dog is wrong in a way that eating a cow is not. We have co-evolved with dogs, cows, and other animals, and it seems to me there is an evolutionary pact that humanity has made: We have force-evolved dogs to love and trust us. (Cows have merely been bred to be milked and eaten.) We humans took wolves and shaped them to be our loyal companions. Science shows that dogs are supremely attuned to human gestures and feelings. It's not a question of morality on the individual level, it's a species-wide issue: the human species shouldn't deliberately evolve another species to love it, and then betray it by eating it.

That doesn't mean that everyone has a duty to become as incensed as Pak Asam Manis about this tragic issue. I fully agree with him that not only is eating dog wrong, it's made a thousand times worse, for both the humans and the dogs involved, when it is done in a cruel and unsanitary manner.

But there is plenty wrong in the world. We all pick and choose our causes. Those of you who have known me for a long time know that the cause of the 8 people - the 6 cleaners and Neil and Ferdi - so unjustly treated by the Indonesian legal system was something I felt very passionately about, and I was willing to spend hours at the keyboard battling misconceptions about that horrible situation. That doesn't make those who didn't take up the cause with equal fervor bad people. We can't be white knights on everything; so much injustice, so little time...

According to the stats for this thread, 34 members have read it, and that's just including people who were signed in. We often have more guests reading, so the commentary provided has probably reached a pretty good audience - small in absolute numbers, large in the amount of interest and concern they have for all things Indonesian. On this topic and everything else, I hope ideas, minus personal attacks and inflammatory rhetoric, will continue to be shared.
 
It's not a question of morality on the individual level, it's a species-wide issue: the human species shouldn't deliberately evolve another species to love it, and then betray it by eating it.

That's something I did not think about which definitely make me pause. Although the domestication happened a long time ago, it should be discounted indeed.

What about cows or bulls used in the fields by farmers. Surely those do also end up on the plate once their usefulness has expired. It may be not on the level of bond between humans and dogs but isn't it unfair to be eaten after a lofe of service? This is clearly a grey area and your comments add an interesting twist to the discussion, at least for me.
 
If we didn’t eat meat, there would be no cows and all those in the meat business would make no money
 

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:0)

Follow Us

Latest Expat Indo Articles

Latest Tweets by Expat Indo

Latest Activity

New posts Latest threads

Online Now

Newest Members

Forum Statistics

Threads
5,966
Messages
97,385
Members
3,035
Latest member
Les 819
Back
Top Bottom