I think the entire lead up is barbaric

harryopal

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It is so easy to suggest that these animals are feeling very little pain even if they behave as if they are. In the 19th century the white races generally regarded it as fact that dark skinned people had a limited capacity to feel. A convenient belief that justified inflicting savage beatings of slaves. Anthropologist Karl Christoph Vogt provided a physiological justification for their continued abuse. Vogt’s Lectures on Man (1864) informed readers that “the Negro stands far below the white race” in terms of the “acuteness of the senses.”
 

Helpful Herbert

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How did that work? They just showed up and decided in front of your house was a good idea to do the sacrifice that year?
It was about the third or fourth year we lived in that house but previously I had always been away at the time. Anyway lesson learned is don't be around on the morning of idul adha.
 

HappyMan

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There is that old saying that everyone wants to to eat meat but nobody wants to marry the butcher. A lot of my more sheltered friends have been amazed to learn that I have no compunctions about killing the animals I want to eat. How could I? If you have no moral qualms about paying to have something done, you aught to have no qualms about doing it yourself.

Making the animals suffer though, tied up without feed and water, spooked by a crowd... can't say I'd actually do anything other than curse quietly to myself at the time, but I also would not be delivering an animal into those same hands the following year.

I don't believe this is actually a cultural/religious issue (more of a "lived experience"/individual asshole one), but I'm also not willing to accept culture/religion as a legitimate excuse for actual suffering. No culture is valuable enough to balance the scales against systematic cruelty (which again, I don't believe is indicated here).
 

exu156

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Some ridiculous comments going in this thread. 'Well you eat meat so therefore it's the same.' No, it's not the same, it's not even close the being the same. There's a whole different psychology behind needlessly sacrificing an animal for religious reasons rather than a need for food. That's why a heap of the meat ends up wasted and thrown into rivers. So much of it is also just about 'showing off,' as is so common in these religious events. Paraded ego pretending to be spiritual.

Also, in regards to 'well bule, if you don't like it, why don't you just leave', I don't like the stunting that is obvious in a lot of the children in the remoter areas. This is a physical stunting that could be prevented with better nutrition awareness and distribution of essential foodstuffs. I don't like it, so does that mean I should leave?

Dumbest comment in the entire thread so far.
 
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snpark

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Some ridiculous comments going in this thread. 'Well you eat meat so therefore it's the same.' No, it's not the same, it's not even close the being the same. There's a whole different psychology behind needlessly sacrificing an animal for religious reasons rather than a need for food. That's why a heap of the meat ends up wasted and thrown into rivers. So much of it is also just about 'showing off,' as is so common in these religious events. Paraded ego pretending to be spiritual.

Also, in regards to 'well bule, if you don't like it, why don't you just leave', I don't like the stunting that is obvious in a lot of the children in the remoter areas. This is a physical stunting that could be prevented with better nutrition awareness and distribution of essential foodstuffs. I don't like it, so that's that mean I should leave?

Dumbest comment in the entire thread so far.

Nice first post Mango
 

atlantis

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Nice first post Mango
Please refrain from doing assumptions which are totally unverified. Attack the post, not the poster.

Edit: post has been reported to us, we verified it and concluded that nothing was actionable.
 

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Pak Asam Manis

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Mocking Muslim religious customs, calling them barbaric, while living among them, is not very nice.
As Indonesians say, if you don't like it, can leave anytime.
Agree with not mocking religious customs (doing so in public can be dangerous to oneself, among other reasons). But nowhere in Muslim adat generally or the proscribed actions for the sacrifice of korban specifically, will you find encouragement of "extra" abuse or cruelty to the sacrificial victims. In fact, quite the opposite. I believe fastpitch is quite correct to criticize the teens for throwing rocks at the animals, and their "shepherds" for doing nothing to stop them, not providing water, etc. These actions are totally contrary to the way these animals are supposed to be treated before sacrifice according to Islam.

A few years ago I posted a petition on this site asking for the banning of the dog meat trade in Indonesia. I got a ton of heat for this from the fellow expats, but the petition originated with Indonesian animal welfare activists, not just bules. That I believe lends it somewhat more legitimacy than can be countered with a simple "[Bule] have no right to interfere with another group's culture - if you don't like it go home" argument. You don't have to agree with it, but I think you should not dismiss it outright either. Besides, it can always break down into: "You are Sunda / Jawa / Aceh / Padang, we are Batak / Toraja / dll. - don't tell us what to do" or even "You are kampong utara, I am kampong timor - Get off of my lawn!" But I know orang Batak who are appalled at the consumption of dog meat and way that the animals are captured and killed - they keep quiet about it because they are in the minority.

Indonesia is a Muslim-majority country. The cards could have landed differently, but for many reasons they did not. I am a Muslim (mualaf or convert). But I have a significant amount of internal conflict when it comes to some things said in Islam about the treatment of people, and especially animals in certain circumstances. I accept the idea and practice of Korban because I accept Islam. I eat the meat from the sacrifice. I bought the goat for my father-in-law and another for my mother-in-law and a third for my wife. But I would prefer to keep the idea and lost the blood: sacrifice a block of tofu and call it done. For obvious reasons that ain't gonna happen (the spilling of blood is the whole point, and tofu's got none).
 

snpark

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Agree with not mocking religious customs (doing so in public can be dangerous to oneself, among other reasons). But nowhere in Muslim adat generally or the proscribed actions for the sacrifice of korban specifically, will you find encouragement of "extra" abuse or cruelty to the sacrificial victims. In fact, quite the opposite. I believe fastpitch is quite correct to criticize the teens for throwing rocks at the animals, and their "shepherds" for doing nothing to stop them, not providing water, etc. These actions are totally contrary to the way these animals are supposed to be treated before sacrifice according to Islam.

A few years ago I posted a petition on this site asking for the banning of the dog meat trade in Indonesia. I got a ton of heat for this from the fellow expats, but the petition originated with Indonesian animal welfare activists, not just bules. That I believe lends it somewhat more legitimacy than can be countered with a simple "[Bule] have no right to interfere with another group's culture - if you don't like it go home" argument. You don't have to agree with it, but I think you should not dismiss it outright either. Besides, it can always break down into: "You are Sunda / Jawa / Aceh / Padang, we are Batak / Toraja / dll. - don't tell us what to do" or even "You are kampong utara, I am kampong timor - Get off of my lawn!" But I know orang Batak who are appalled at the consumption of dog meat and way that the animals are captured and killed - they keep quiet about it because they are in the minority.

Indonesia is a Muslim-majority country. The cards could have landed differently, but for many reasons they did not. I am a Muslim (mualaf or convert). But I have a significant amount of internal conflict when it comes to some things said in Islam about the treatment of people, and especially animals in certain circumstances. I accept the idea and practice of Korban because I accept Islam. I eat the meat from the sacrifice. I bought the goat for my father-in-law and another for my mother-in-law and a third for my wife. But I would prefer to keep the idea and lost the blood: sacrifice a block of tofu and call it done. For obvious reasons that ain't gonna happen (the spilling of blood is the whole point, and tofu's got none).

And hows that going? Did they stop eating dogs yet? Is it banned? Did the government do anything?
 

harryopal

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The need for sacrifice has been such a major element in so many religions and cultures. In his classic anthropological study, The Golden Bough, Sir James Frazier describes pagan European rituals which involved a King for the day who could do as he wished and then was sacrificed at the end of the day. Another common practice was tree worship where a sacrificial victim was tied to tree. disemboweled and then had their intestines wrapped around the tree.

Commemorating the construction of important buildings by placing a human head beneath a foundation pole was common not just in Borneo and Indonesia, but throughout Asia, Central America, Africa and around the world.

One of the major rituals in Christianity is drinking the blood and eating of the body of Christ; even if just in a symbolic way

While I agree with the general expressions of revulsion at the seemingly needless cruelty and suffering involved in animal sacrifice I simply make the point that such rituals are deeply rooted in the psyche of so many peoples. Great to try mitigate the pain and suffering of animals but important to bear in that this is potentially a dangerous area in which to dabble.
 

Helpful Herbert

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The need for sacrifice has been such a major element in so many religions and cultures. In his classic anthropological study, The Golden Bough, Sir James Frazier describes pagan European rituals which involved a King for the day who could do as he wished and then was sacrificed at the end of the day. Another common practice was tree worship where a sacrificial victim was tied to tree. disemboweled and then had their intestines wrapped around the tree.
Sacrifice was one of the actions and ceremonies designed to influence events which affect human welfare - the growth of crops, the suppy and accessibility of game, even the recurrence of the seasons with their blessings of rain or sunshine. The methods by which events were to be influenced appeared to be a sort of imitation, based on the assumption that like causes like and that a sympathy can be established between human actions and external events.

Man was mimicking the outside world; and though he does not thereby alter the outside world, he obeys a human craving, an imperative which is part of him, and he enjoys the resultant satisfaction. Emperor Zheng created his terracotta soldiers, upwards of 7500 figures, each of which was literally a unique human individual. His terracotta army stood ready to turn in flesh, blood and sinews, and swarm out of the subterranean caverns to sweep before him upon his enemies, to be led by Zheng himself if his own body were adequately embalmed.

Apparently inseparable from humanity, and connected perhaps with man's individual self-consciousness and his power of thought, reflection, speech and memory, is his preoccupation with death and survival - in short, with immortality. The desire to defeat mortality and secure survival demands to be satisfied, and since it cannot be satisfied literally and physically, mankind everywhere invokes the resources of imagination, or imitation, or make-believe and of ritual behaviour.

Among the practices which anthropology has recorded and classified as occurring apparently spontaneously, there is an extensive group which is concerned with cheating death and decay of their prey by cutting off life and strength at the prime before they can undergo decline and diminution. It was such a method of securing the permanent guardianship of a sacred grove where grew the tree with the golden bough which gave Frazer's great work its title. The priest of Hemi was the slayer of the previous priest, and he was one of a great host of comparable beings all around the world. To preserve the kingship the king must die.

Expressed in rational, mechanical terms the proposition is erroneous and illogical. However it is a mistake to see it as an intellectual aberration; it is a human way to respond to a human quest: rationality and irrationality are irrelevant categories.

Humans still share this common compulsion with Zheng and the others, but we are now able to satisfy, with a wider sweep of comprehension, the instinctual human needs shared with our forefathers, but in a different way. Crucifixions and general resurrections are no longer needed, we don't have to kill the King for the kingdom to endure or for the community to survive.
 

Pak Asam Manis

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snpark said:

< And hows that going? Did they stop eating dogs yet? Is it banned? Did the government do anything? >

Good God! Take a chill pill there, Columbo!!

gsrWoJ3.jpg



You have responded to my post with a mini-barrage of badgering questions (with obvious answers). At times you come across to me as an intelligent person. This is not one of those times, unfortunately.

Nowhere in my post did I address or say anything about the efficaciousness of such efforts. It is patently obvious that they have not had any effect, nor should they have been expected to. I am sure that even the authors / originators of the petition / drive did not imagine that it would change anything in the short term. But it could be a spark that will help to initiate change in the long term. That is how long term, big changes happen, when they do: it starts with a single, usually ineffective action or series of actions. Culture is not static; it is always in a process of change, though we would need time-lapse photography, in many cases, to see it. Now let me play you for a moment:

Do you think Gandhi just snapped his fingers, and the British left India? Do you think civil rights were won (to the limited extent they have been) for people of color in the US because MLKJR woke up one morning and told his wife that he'd had a dream? Huh? DO ya?

In any case, the meat and potatoes of my post so to speak, was to express that the actions (and inactions) reported by fastpitch17 are not at all in line with Islamic custom and expected practice, so I do not perceive his comments as so much disparaging or disrespecting the religious practice of korban, or the religion as a whole, as Centurion accuses him, but as a just and warranted criticism of the violation of clearly stated Islamic principles in regard to korban.

Got it?

 

HappyMan

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But I would prefer to keep the idea and lost the blood: sacrifice a block of tofu and call it done. For obvious reasons that ain't gonna happen (the spilling of blood is the whole point, and tofu's got none).
Are you sure this is accurate? Neighbor's wife was a vegan and I heard him yelling about "bloody tofu" every time she cooked. Maybe she was a raw vegan? Other people's religions...
 

snpark

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snpark said:

< And hows that going? Did they stop eating dogs yet? Is it banned? Did the government do anything? >

Good God! Take a chill pill there, Columbo!!

View attachment 2030


You have responded to my post with a mini-barrage of badgering questions (with obvious answers). At times you come across to me as an intelligent person. This is not one of those times, unfortunately.

Nowhere in my post did I address or say anything about the efficaciousness of such efforts. It is patently obvious that they have not had any effect, nor should they have been expected to. I am sure that even the authors / originators of the petition / drive did not imagine that it would change anything in the short term. But it could be a spark that will help to initiate change in the long term. That is how long term, big changes happen, when they do: it starts with a single, usually ineffective action or series of actions. Culture is not static; it is always in a process of change, though we would need time-lapse photography, in many cases, to see it. Now let me play you for a moment:

Do you think Gandhi just snapped his fingers, and the British left India? Do you think civil rights were won (to the limited extent they have been) for people of color in the US because MLKJR woke up one morning and told his wife that he'd had a dream? Huh? DO ya?

In any case, the meat and potatoes of my post so to speak, was to express that the actions (and inactions) reported by fastpitch17 are not at all in line with Islamic custom and expected practice, so I do not perceive his comments as so much disparaging or disrespecting the religious practice of korban, or the religion as a whole, as Centurion accuses him, but as a just and warranted criticism of the violation of clearly stated Islamic principles in regard to korban.

Got it?


Ehm ok. Was just asking. Relax. I was curious if any new law or regulation was passed to ban it since I'm not a big follower of the antidog eating forums.

Jeez.
 

Pak Asam Manis

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Ehm ok. Was just asking. Relax. I was curious if any new law or regulation was passed to ban it since I'm not a big follower of the antidog eating forums.

Jeez.

Fine. Now you can go back to expounding on more important questions, like what does or does not constitute an adequate quarantine accommodations for an expat, in your opinion. ;)
 

snpark

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Fine. Now you can go back to expounding on more important questions, like what does or does not constitute an adequate quarantine accommodations for an expat, in your opinion. ;)

But that would surely take the thread off topic?
Stay where you can afford I guess. If you're a 40 year old professional expat living in Asia but $100 a night for a 5* hotel is too expensive, then by all means stay in a $30 a night one instead.

Each to their own. Like choice of vaccines. Take the Chinese one now or wait and get the European one later
 

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