I love their logic!

Nimbus

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I too was in Jakarta in May 98 and had zero desire to possess a real gun. Caucasian-looking foreigners were not major targets at that time. I bajaj-ed, walked and took a taxi through riots and looting from South Jakarta to Central Jakarta to West Jakarta and back. On May 13-14 itself, rioters around Roxy (Jl Hasyim Ashari) and Jl Gajah Mada were quite gleeful. It was an atmosphere of excited, frenzied mayhem. Looters were taking things to extremes, stripping shops bare, then even taking empty shelves. Suddenly, every other low-income family or warung seemed to have a new TV, while kids were selling looted laptops at traffic lights. Most of the approx 1,200 fatalities were looters, trapped inside malls that were set alight to create maximum chaos. There were also the military provocateurs, inciting the rape and murder of ethnic Chinese females in parts of West and North Jakarta. I felt more afraid of the soldiers at that time, than I did of the unarmed idiot looters. Many smiled at me, shouting hello mister and proudly displayed their freshly looted goods. Obviously, it wasn't a good time to look Chinese (in addition to local ethnic Chinese, some Koreans and Japanese were attacked). What if I had owned a gun at that time and pointed it at the shrieking mobs? Incitement for them to attack me. The atmosphere was extremely tense around Kedoya and Grogol, especially when just the soldiers and the short-haired men in military boots and civvies were on the street on May 13, before most of the mass looting and fires started. It was safe for a white-looking Westerner to walk through the unfolding devastation. Some days later, I was in a taxi at a traffic light in Kebayoran Baru one night, when a couple of youths smashed one of the back windows and demanded my money. The driver and I both told them off, as we were shocked and the boys weren't armed. Different story if they had had guns. Later that year, and the following year, I was again more scared of the military and police, which had taken to randomly murdering students and other innocent civilians in response to demands that the military/police lose their free seats in the national parliament. It was around this time that Wiranto, Habibie, Hamzah Haz and some senior police (Nugroho Djajoesman) funded the creation of the Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) to use religious extremism to combat civilian protesters. In return, the FPI got to run protection rackets, but rarely attacked foreigners. Previously, Tommy Suharto had funded Islamic militants to counter pro-democracy protesters in July 1996. This situation also saw the rise of Betawi protection racket groups -- which exist to this day and will still take money from crooked politicians and security officials to do their dirty work (see the anti-Ahok protests). Next was the Ambon/Maluku violence, triggered partly by long-simmering religious tensions that came to the boil after Suharto fell and exacerbated by generals (deploying the Laskar Jihad forces) aiming to destabilize then-president Gus Dur. Anyway, the idea of owning a gun for self-defense in Jakarta is stupid. If everyone were able to get a gun "just for self defense" then the incidence of gun crimes would soar. If/when coronavirus-19 leads to mass unemployment, food shortages, triggering social jealousy and desperate hunger, easily incited into riots for nefarious political purposes, would I feel safer with a gun? No. I don't expect a murderous mob to arrive at my doorstep. Rich communities pay for military/police protection of their neighborhoods. It's possible that satpams could be overwhelmed or flee if a massive mob arrives, but it's more likely that angry mobs could be led to lower-income enclaves of ethnic Chinese. Alas.
Growing up in Indonesia, I knew better than to threaten a mob with a gun. If you have a gun, you use it as a last resort self defense tool, which is true anywhere in the world. You don’t show it until you can’t avoid shooting somebody, like when they’re about to chop you to pieces or in the process of lighting your house on fire.

Shoot or shoot not, there is no threaten.
 

rabbit_39

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No. I don't expect a murderous mob to arrive at my doorstep. Rich communities pay for military/police protection of their neighborhoods. It's possible that satpams could be overwhelmed or flee if a massive mob arrives, but it's more likely that angry mobs could be led to lower-income enclaves of ethnic Chinese. Alas.
Any thoughts to how the almost middle class and lower middle class family would need? Those who can't afford to pay for military/police protection in the neighborhoods, and has to work office jobs at 10 juta per month to support their families? Or the ones with stores but not large enough to make a net profit of more than 15-20 juta per month after paying employees, rent, etc?

I'd imagine there's a boat load of people in that position than the ones who don't need guns. At the very least you can lock up at home with a couple of boxes of ammo. If Indonesians at that time valued human life so little, why not at least have the freedom to be able to defend your family? No need to be walking around with a gun shooting looters everywhere, but at least you can protect your own and yours. Nimbus gave the example of the Koreans being able to defend themselves during the LA riots.
 

Banana72

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Got me a plastic pistol with plastic mini pellets...probably won't stop anybody, but I've gotten really good killing/shooting innocent cicaks on the ceiling from about 2 1/2 meters away (don't hate on me...either kill the cicak or wife increase voice decibel level..).
 

Tupai Hitam

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Any thoughts to how the almost middle class and lower middle class family would need? Those who can't afford to pay for military/police protection in the neighborhoods, and has to work office jobs at 10 juta per month to support their families? Or the ones with stores but not large enough to make a net profit of more than 15-20 juta per month after paying employees, rent, etc?

I'd imagine there's a boat load of people in that position than the ones who don't need guns. At the very least you can lock up at home with a couple of boxes of ammo. If Indonesians at that time valued human life so little, why not at least have the freedom to be able to defend your family? No need to be walking around with a gun shooting looters everywhere, but at least you can protect your own and yours. Nimbus gave the example of the Koreans being able to defend themselves during the LA riots.
What? Nobody needs guns in Indonesia except law enforcement officers. Guns in the hands of civilians is a stupid concept for stupid people.
 

Tupai Hitam

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If you have a gun, you use it as a last resort self defense tool, which is true anywhere in the world. You don’t show it until you can’t avoid shooting somebody, like when they’re about to chop you to pieces or in the process of lighting your house on fire.
So why do you wish you had had a gun in May 98? Were you about to be chopped to pieces? Was your house burnt down?
 

Nimbus

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So why do you wish you had had a gun in May 98? Were you about to be chopped to pieces? Was your house burnt down?
Would you wait to buy a spare tire until you have a flat? Would you buy a fire extinguisher only after your house burned down? By the time it happens it’s too late.

I was lucky that the mob didn’t get to my kompleks, but they were close. Close enough to see a car getting smashed. One of my acquaintances wasn’t so lucky, she died in her ruko, trapped there when they lit it up.
 

rabbit_39

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What? Nobody needs guns in Indonesia except law enforcement officers. Guns in the hands of civilians is a stupid concept for stupid people.
Well call me stupid then for not wanting to trust that the police will come within 5 minutes of me calling 911 when my house is at risk of being mobbed.

Granted, that when one can afford to live far away from the center of the mess, don't belong to any minority class that is just one sentence away from the majority doing harm to you and they feel justified for it, it makes it difficult to sympathize with the need for self defense and protection of one's own life and those they love.
 

Nimbus

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What? Nobody needs guns in Indonesia except law enforcement officers. Guns in the hands of civilians is a stupid concept for stupid people.
You need to be careful when making generalizations, because they tend to be false.

For the specific case of densely populated Indonesian cities and islands, civilian ownership of guns tends to bring more problems than solutions. Still, if it’s legally available in some way, I wouldn’t hesitate to get one. I know that I’ll be part of the solution rather than the problem.

For sparsely populated areas like Alaska, where polar bears and other predators roam freely, not having a gun is a stupid concept. If your lifelihood depends on meat from moose you hunt, then not having a rifle means not eating.

In the continental USA where there are already more guns than people, not having a gun in times of emergency is not the best idea. The criminals have guns, and when half of the police force is quarantined due to the virus, what are you gonna use against these armed bad guys? Harsh language?
 

Nimbus

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Pretty sad when people think this has gone from lock down to lock and load.
In USA:
  • Nearly 10 million Americans filed for unemployment in the last couple of weeks. The money they get can hardly keep the lights on.
  • The $1200 stimulus may not reach people for 12 weeks. Not sure what they’re supposed to do in the mean time.
  • In some areas people form a very long line at the food bank, which is quickly depleting its inventory.
  • Tens to hundreds of police officers have been sent home for self quarantine when some of their colleagues tested positive for the virus. Many departments have decided to respond only to serious crimes.
  • Some jails have been emptied and inmates released to reduce their chance of infection.

The number of new cases is still increasing, so it’s still getting worse. Law and order has not broken down, but I’m not sure how long it will last.
 

Ruserious

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Im curious if any non Americans are on here taking the pro-gun side.

Im not american and in some ways i wish i had a gun available during these times but then i also am very anti the idea of guns being available to the general population and believe it would be a disaster in Indonesia. Crime etc is not bad here and doesnt need that element brought into it. So if i cant get a gun here then so be it, as long as no one else can.
 

Euc-

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Im curious if any non Americans are on here taking the pro-gun side.

Im not american and in some ways i wish i had a gun available during these times but then i also am very anti the idea of guns being available to the general population and believe it would be a disaster in Indonesia. Crime etc is not bad here and doesnt need that element brought into it. So if i cant get a gun here then so be it, as long as no one else can.
Unfortunately its not THAT hard to get guns here. I know quite a few with (legal or otherwise) guns. I've been offered a few in the last few days, "for my protection".

What happens if law and order really does break down, mass demonstrations that overwhelm authorities, they get their hands on guns, then what?
 

atlantis

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Im curious if any non Americans are on here taking the pro-gun side.
Nimbus :D

What happens if law and order really does break down, mass demonstrations that overwhelm authorities, they get their hands on guns, then what?
A mob won't be stopped by a single gun. Perhaps one or two will be down but the mob will ultimately reach you if they want to. As I said earlier in this thread, I way prefer to invest in a good securitv system and making sure that I keep excellent relation with the people of my hood because ultimately thay may be far more useful than a gun sold to me by a rogue copper. Anyway when I see the old junk they have as pistols, they should give me money for me to use one of them.
 

Nimbus

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Im curious if any non Americans are on here taking the pro-gun side.

Im not american and in some ways i wish i had a gun available during these times but then i also am very anti the idea of guns being available to the general population and believe it would be a disaster in Indonesia. Crime etc is not bad here and doesnt need that element brought into it. So if i cant get a gun here then so be it, as long as no one else can.
I’m pro gun in USA because there are already more guns than people and confiscation is unconstitutional, therefore restrictions are only effectively applied to new gun owners (like immigrants). It does nothing to change the number of guns in circulation.

In short: don’t stop me from buying guns when everybody else and his brother already has one.

In Indonesia I prefer strict control of gun ownership. In this densely populated country, people tend to place low value on human life. You’ll understand when you’ve seen how easy it is for villagers to lynch and kill a burglar. Look, when I was in high school, students used to brawl with kids from rival schools, which occasionally ended with a dead guy or two.

If you have a good relationship with your neighbors and you treat your local security / satpam well, then owning a gun can be more trouble than it’s worth. Indonesian law is not very clear about what’s considered justified self defense, so if you end up shooting somebody dead, you’re gonna be at the complete mercy of the police, prosecutor, and judges.
 

gemima

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In USA:
  • Nearly 10 million Americans filed for unemployment in the last couple of weeks. The money they get can hardly keep the lights on.
  • The $1200 stimulus may not reach people for 12 weeks. Not sure what they’re supposed to do in the mean time.
  • In some areas people form a very long line at the food bank, which is quickly depleting its inventory.
  • Tens to hundreds of police officers have been sent home for self quarantine when some of their colleagues tested positive for the virus. Many departments have decided to respond only to serious crimes.
  • Some jails have been emptied and inmates released to reduce their chance of infection.
The number of new cases is still increasing, so it’s still getting worse. Law and order has not broken down, but I’m not sure how long it will last.
Reading this has made me glad I'm not located in the US right now....
 

harryopal

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Sounds like a good time to get the yacht ready quickly for a solo trip around the world. The voyage could take a year or two and by then things might have settled down. One technicality might prevent this.. actually three technicalities. One... I don't have a yacht. Two... I know nothing about navigation and Three... I have never sailed a boat. (Actually that sounds like the boat we are all in now. Nobody really know how to get going or in which direction to head. Anyone got a compass?)
 

centurion

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Sounds like a good time to get the yacht ready quickly for a solo trip around the world. The voyage could take a year or two and by then things might have settled down. One technicality might prevent this.. actually three technicalities. One... I don't have a yacht. Two... I know nothing about navigation and Three... I have never sailed a boat. (Actually that sounds like the boat we are all in now. Nobody really know how to get going or in which direction to head. Anyone got a compass?)
There are actually four technicalities, most yachts are now forbidden to enter any port in the world, even for refuelling or water and food supplies.
 

Nimbus

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Dave70

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An Asian American family of three were stabbed at Sam’s Club because the attacker thought they were spreading the Coronavirus.

Hate and violence happens when mainstream Western media spread lies and propaganda. Below video shows how the New York Times did the twisting of the facts to put the blame on China.

 

Nimbus

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Hate and violence happens when mainstream Western media spread lies and propaganda. Below video shows how the New York Times did the twisting of the facts to put the blame on China.

Sorry, while the New York Times is not perfect, I’m not gonna take Nathan Rich’s word for it.

Trump is the one pushing the narrative that it’s a Chinese virus, going so far as insisting that a G7 statement should call it the “Wuhan Virus”. His fanatical followers (roughly 40% of U.S. population) then puts the blame on the whole situation in USA on China and Chinese people. When his incompetence makes the disaster worse, he always blames somebody else, preferably foreigners. The Chinese are his target today, but he’s been blaming Mexicans and Muslims before.
 

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