Hello from a soon-to-be ex from the US

[flavus]

Out of curiosity I tried this procedure and answering the quiz
Was the baby born in AU ? No
Was at least one parents an AU citizen at the time of the baby's birth ? Yes
View attachment 3145
And it is led to this site

Immigration and citizenship Website

Find out about Australian visas, immigration and citizenship.

immi.homeaffairs.gov.au

You must have been born outside Australia
ensure that the person you are claiming descent from was your parent at the time of your birth and was also an Australian citizen at the time of your birth
be of good character if you are 18 years old or over when you apply

You could even apply online

Immigration and citizenship Website

Find out about Australian visas, immigration and citizenship.

immi.homeaffairs.gov.au

The way I understand it. It does not say you or the Baby will need to be in Australia at the time of application.
Even a son already over 18 years old could still even apply by himself from outside AU as long as they have proof/ evidence on what is needed.
What about asking directly to home affairs ??

Yeah, I didn't start the application process itself since it prompts to create an account, but disturbingly the page also has instructions on traveling to Australia with a baby. So ... I defer to Sam's experience here as he is the Australian who went through this

 

[jukung11]

Hmm, interesting. So in the case an ex-WNI changes their name when naturalizing, but consistently use their new passport even when visiting Indonesia, there will be nothing tying their new identity to the old one in Indonesian databases, right?

It makes it far less likely the Indonesian government would link the two identies as the same person, but not impossible. It is possible for facial recognition software to match up the same person traveling with two passports and two different names. Thanks to poorly redacted FOIA responses, I know that the U.S. government has been using facial recognition software and closely tracking people through airports since 2007. The technology has advanced drastically since then. Changi is open about using this technology too. Most wealthier governments have it.

It comes down to information sharing. Indonesia doesn't have a history of compliance with other nations and has limited treaties, but it is signing up for more information sharing.
United States DHS has an information sharing agreement with Indonesia.

DHS, Indonesian National Police sign information-sharing agreement

Assistant Secretary Bersin signed the document on behalf of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) signifying the U.S. government’s commitment to enhancing and strengthening the bi-lateral fight against transnational crime.

www.ice.gov

There are other regulations for banking and to catch tax cheats that Indonesia or Indonesian banks have signed on to also. For the EU, there is the common reporting standard. For the United States there is Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA).

The United States and Australia created and fund Densus 88. I would be surprised if their intelligence agencies also don't share information with the Indonesian government.

Its possible that someone in Indonesia could be told and link the two identities. I don't know if that information would be easily transferred between agencies within Indonesia though.

 

[flavus]

I know that the U.S. government has been using facial recognition software and closely tracking people through airports since 2007

That explains how when Global Entry (the US program to expedite entry for frequent international travelers - open to citizens, PRs, and citizens of select countries) starts using it recently, it seems to work without a hitch - the technology is quite mature.

The kiosk works by taking a photo of your face now, no need to scan your passport's barcode or the Global Entry card. Then an officer just collects your printout - in theory matching the info against your passport but they barely looked at it

There are other regulations for banking and to catch tax cheats that Indonesia or Indonesian banks have signed on to also. For the EU, there is the common reporting standard. For the United States there is Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA)

Yeah - unless you really need to, maintaining Indonesian bank accounts from overseas is super PITA since so many things have to be done in person. Really not worth it in most cases.

To clarify, my initial musing was based more on realizing I could enter Indonesia on visits without the awkwardness of being identified as an ex-WNI - I'm just a tourist. Not to hide anything

The same reason we don't bother reporting our kid's birth to the consulate. He's going to grow up American, we won't live in Indonesia so the dual nationality hassle is going to be even more convoluted to deal with from here than it already is in Indonesia. We didn't get married in Indonesia, so being asked our marital status is always awkward - "well KTP says single... we did report to the consulate but have not sorted it out with catatan sipil... so... limbo"

 

[jukung11]

The same reason we don't bother reporting our kid's birth to the consulate. He's going to grow up American, we won't live in Indonesia so the dual nationality hassle is going to be even more convoluted to deal with from here than it already is in Indonesia. We didn't get married in Indonesia, so being asked our marital status is always awkward - "well KTP says single... we did report to the consulate but have not sorted it out with catatan sipil... so... limbo"

My understanding is the marital status doesn't matter when reporting an Indonesian birth abroad, but only if reporting within Indonesia. I have read the process and documentation from the foreign consulate and from imigrasi in Indonesia. My recollection was in Indonesia, you need the marriage certificate, but when dealing with the foreign consulate, you only need the birth certificate and the passports of the parents.

KONSULAT JENDERAL REPUBLIK INDONESIA DI NEW YORK, AMERIKA SERIKAT

KONSULAT JENDERAL REPUBLIK INDONESIA DI NEW YORK, AMERIKA SERIKAT

www.kemlu.go.id

I knew two children who's mother never registered them as dual citizens before she naturalized. They were disappointed when they became teens. They wanted to explore their Indonesian heritage in the later part of high school or as a gap year before college. You may be precluding your children from options later in life. Even if they reject citizenship at 21, they can never easily regain it if they never had it. Many people on here hope that in the future, Indonesia will get rid of the age 21 decision requirement too.

Me checking what the visa on arrival form looks like for Indonesia - wow, you can apply online now! I wonder how different it is from the EU's ESTA in practice

https://molina.imigrasi.go.id/

This is little more than a digitized payment processing site. It allows you to skip the VOA payment line, but all information must still be verified and approved by an agent the same as if you got the VOA when you land. Just because it says "approved", doesn't mean much. I'm not sure if it connected to any other system or database. Approval is instantaneous, so no person verifies any of the information such as photo or passport.

 

[flavus]

I knew two children who's mother never registered them as dual citizens before she naturalized. They were disappointed when they became teens. They wanted to explore their Indonesian heritage in the later part of high school or as a gap year before college. You may be precluding your children from options later in life.

That is probably more of the case with members of ethnic groups that originate in Indonesia, though? (Javanese, Balinese, etc.). If you're a member of multiple non-"pribumi" minorities... the ties is not that strong, and you might even land in ... hot water, legally, if you're too outspoken.

Plus also, given you're supposed to enter and leave a country with the passport of said country, the logistics of toddlers with Indonesian passports traveling with parents with non-Indonesian ones seem to be yet another added hassle.

This is little more than a digitized payment processing site. It allows you to skip the VOA payment line, but all information must still be verified and approved by an agent the same as if you got the VOA when you land.

Ah, good to know. Still, assuming it's reliable it's probably better than either having to carry rupiahs or figure out exactly how much dollars to carry in cash.

 

[john madden]

That is probably more of the case with members of ethnic groups that originate in Indonesia, though? (Javanese, Balinese, etc.). If you're a member of multiple non-"pribumi" minorities... the ties is not that strong, and you might even land in ... hot water, legally, if you're too outspoken.

Plus also, given you're supposed to enter and leave a country with the passport of said country, the logistics of toddlers with Indonesian passports traveling with parents with non-Indonesian ones seem to be yet another added hassle.


Ah, good to know. Still, assuming it's reliable it's probably better than either having to carry rupiahs or figure out exactly how much dollars to carry in cash.

And be able to bypass the lengthy VOA payment queues at eg Ngurah Rai.

 

[jukung11]

Plus also, given you're supposed to enter and leave a country with the passport of said country, the logistics of toddlers with Indonesian passports traveling with parents with non-Indonesian ones seem to be yet another added hassle.

No need for an Indonesian passport. The affidavit and stamp in the foreign passport allows it to function the same as an Indonesian passport for Indonesian government purposes. Since you mentioned naturalizing to the United States, my assumption is your children already have American passports. No need for an Indonesian passport. You would simply save the VOA fee if you travel to Indonesia. If the children return as unaccompanied teens under 21, the American passport functions the same as an Indonesian one.

Ah, good to know. Still, assuming it's reliable it's probably better than either having to carry rupiahs or figure out exactly how much dollars to carry in cash.

You can now give imigrasi dollars for the VOA and they will convert it and give you change in rupiah. The exchange rate is not bad. The credit card fee for the eVOA is more than the exchange rate conversion. In Jakarta, there are also 100,000 idr note ATMs before getting in line. It is nice to skip the line if a few international flights arrived at the same time. The real advantage is to be able to renew your visa online without visiting imigrasi.

 

[SamR]

Yeah, I didn't start the application process itself since it prompts to create an account, but disturbingly the page also has instructions on traveling to Australia with a baby. So ... I defer to Sam's experience here as he is the Australian who went through this

I haven't checked the page but the part about travelling to Australia with a baby does indicate that the application for citizenship has to be lodged in Australia.

Hmm, interesting. So in the case an ex-WNI changes their name when naturalizing, but consistently use their new passport even when visiting Indonesia, there will be nothing tying their new identity to the old one in Indonesian databases, right?

Back when I was a soon-to-be-ex, this idea was put up to me but I'm a scaredy cat so I rejected it because I didn't want the process of going through immigration at Soetta to be a test of nerves

 

[pantaiema]

Hmm, interesting. So in the case an ex-WNI changes their name when naturalizing, but consistently use their new passport even when visiting Indonesia, there will be nothing tying their new identity to the old one in Indonesian databases, right?

This loophole is well known since ages among diaspora living abroad It is well known for diaspora where the countries of their origin do not allow dual nationalities. For instance Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese, etc. Another version of this for those whose names comprise of three, four words. In any application they might use any combination to comprise two words making them difficult to be recognised.

What the embassies do is that if you they know you are already a permanent Residence since long time ago, they refuse to extend your passport, as simple as that. If you insist they will ask you a letter, affidavit or the like, making sure you have not got another nationality before they will renew your passport.

You could argue, use many excuses, no such letter could be produced, I have a wealthy family, and makes inheritance easier. AFAIK they simply do not buy this BS. They have heard this generic accuse so many times. There are already a lot of reports Indonesian embassies have already used this approach. Keep in mind it is up to them to renew or to not renew it. If a person wants to fight his corner, he will need to fight in the country of origin. He can not do it in the foreign court abroad.

 

[jstar]

What the embassies do is that if you they know you are already a permanent Residence since long time ago, they refuse to extend your passport, as simple as that. If you insist they will ask you a letter, affidavit or the like, making sure you have not got another nationality before they will renew your passport.

OMG. Did you make this up or read it somewhere? Then I would like to see the source. I have Indonesian family and friends who are born in the US and some still live there. Adults who also have Indonesian passports, they get new ones without any obstacles.

 

[pantaiema]

OMG. Did you make this up or read it somewhere? Then I would like to see the source. I have Indonesian family and friends who are born in the US and some still live there. Adults who also have Indonesian passports, they get new ones without any obstacles.

Not make it up. What make you think I have the interest to make it up. Like mentioned before it is a well known loophole by diaspora. I do not know your family and who process the renewal. Some people manage to renew their passport in Indonesia, in their home countries not from the embassies. There is no way Immigration in Indonesia especially in remote areas, will know that you have another nationality, especially those who keep using ASEAN countries as a stop over (differentiate with transit). All they could see is that you have an Indonesian Passport that close to expiry date and you travel frequently to ASEAN Countries in the past, thus good reason to renew your passport. You know how the immigration office in Indonesia work.

I do not know what your family friends do if the embassy refuse to renew it, especially if this is not the first time renewal. Keep in mind they are not being unreasonable. Would like to hear the answer. Having said that it is not impossible to get it renewed as it will all depend on who you meet, the staffs in embassies in question.

Typically they simply do not buy this BS, "I have a wealthy family, and makes inheritance easier". If you insist they will ask you a letter, affidavit or the like from the country of your residence, confirming you have not got another nationality before they will renew your passport. If they do not, just imagine how many Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese, and now Indonesian, etc could easily cheat the the dual nationalities systems by just making up a story.

 

[flavus]

Back when I was a soon-to-be-ex, this idea was put up to me but I'm a scaredy cat so I rejected it because I didn't want the process of going through immigration at Soetta to be a test of nerves

Oh, my musing was unclear. I didn't mean travel home on Indonesian passport, I mean travel to Indonesia on US passport and just not deal with all the hassles of formally relinquishing citizenship right away.

What the embassies do is that if you they know you are already a permanent Residence since long time ago, they refuse to extend your passport, as simple as that. If you insist they will ask you a letter, affidavit or the like, making sure you have not got another nationality before they will renew your passport.

Like @jstar I am skeptical this actually happens (much) with Indonesian embassies. As I stated earlier, when you naturalize here they take away your green card. Which you need to present to the Indonesian consulate when renewing your passport as proof of your legal status.

So... once you naturalize, no more GC, no more Indonesian passport renewal. How can you cheat this process -- fake green cards?

Are you sure the cases you're thinking of are by people who do not have other nationalities, and are legally in the US?

 

[pantaiema]

Oh, my musing was unclear. I didn't mean travel home on Indonesian passport, I mean travel to Indonesia on US passport and just not deal with all the hassles of formally relinquishing citizenship right away.

Like @jstar I am skeptical this actually happens (much) with Indonesian embassies. As I stated earlier, when you naturalize here they take away your green card. Which you need to present to the Indonesian consulate when renewing your passport as proof of your legal status.

So... once you naturalize, no more GC, no more Indonesian passport renewal. How can you cheat this process -- fake green cards?

Are you sure the cases you're thinking of are by people who do not have other nationalities, and are legally in the US?

I think the requirement to return your biometric GC, RP is new, in the past it is not required. It was not even biometric. I don't know how the US Is doing it. This is the British way of doing taking back your PR card.

If you see the penalty, you could easily see the reason why some people do not bother to return it. Also people could easily avoid and refuse to pay the fine.

About Indonesian diaspora with PR/GC; how could you know they do not renew it in Indonesia ?? And like previously it is a well known loophole that many people know. Let alone the embassies staffs who have seen this case multiple times. It is an insult to their intelligent. Keep in mind having / not having a GC/PR is not a proof that you have not got another nationality. Let alone a defence. Having said that it is not impossible to get it renewed as it will all depend on who you meet, the staffs in embassies in question.

 

[flavus]

About Indonesian diaspora with PR/GC; how could you know they do not renew it in Indonesia

Yes, that's the known loophole that we have discussed earlier. But we're questioning your claim that embassies refuse to do renewal.

I think the requirement to return your biometric GC, RP is new, in the past it is not required. It is not even biometric. I don't know how the US Is doing it. This is the British way of doing taking back your PR card.

Naturalization Ceremonies | USCIS

If USCIS approves your Form N-400, Application for Natural

www.uscis.gov

3. Return your Permanent Resident Card

You must return your Permanent Resident Card to USCIS when you check in for your naturalization ceremony. This requirement is waived if you provided proof during the naturalization interview that the card has been lost and you have attempted to recover it, or if, because of your military service, you were never granted permanent residence. You will no longer need your Permanent Resident Card because you will receive your Certificate of Naturalization after you take the Oath of Allegiance.

I am not aware that the rule was different in the past, and I have clearly stated I am talking about the US from the beginning so if your example is from the UK case I wish you would mention that upfront.

And what does being biometric have to do with anything?

I am curious though - since you seem really reluctant to accept people actually want to give up WNI at the beginning of the thread, what is your solution for long term residents if you suggest embassies (or consulates) assume people have naturalized unless proven otherwise, and you don't accept that possession of GC/PR card is proof that one has not?

I should note that these documents expire anyway so even if you don't return it you can't carry out using it for passport renewals indefinitely. And since people who really want to will just renew in Indonesia with the third country double passport trick, why should consulates try to police this beyond asking for reasonable proof like current documentation from the country of residence?

 

[pantaiema]

I am not aware that the rule was different in the past, and I have clearly stated I am talking about the US from the beginning so if your example is from the UK case I wish you would mention that upfront.

See below

https://www.mkri.id/public/content/persidangan/risalah/7789_Risalah-pdf_133.134.135.PHP.2021%20tgl%207%20April%202021.pdf

View attachment 3154

I am curious though - since you seem really reluctant to accept people actually want to give up WNI at the beginning of the thread, what is your solution for long term residents if you suggest embassies (or consulates) assume people have naturalized unless proven otherwise, and you don't accept that possession of GC/PR card is proof that one has not?

Well, I am not reluctant, why should I if it is nothing to do with me. I do not have a solution, neither do I need to find solution, as it is not my duty. I am just explaining the fact as the matter comes up in the discussion.

 

[flavus]

See below

That's an expired green card, of course it's rejected. The holder probably reported it as lost when naturalizing.

Any way, until you show evidence of people with valid green cards being rejected for passport renewal, it's just FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt)

 

[flavus]

I am just explaining the facts

I appreciate that that's what you think you are doing, but you don't seem to get it right

 

[flavus]

Well, I am not reluctant, why should I if it is nothing to do with me. I do not have a solution, neither do I need to find solution, as it is not my duty. I am just explaining the fact as the matter comes up in the discussion.

This is what you said earlier

People said you will automatically lose your Indonesian citizenship, But as I understand, there is no legal requirement to formally report it to Indonesian Embassy or consular in the US. If there is, it is probably better to see what the law is saying in this regard.

 

[123tompel]

May I ask you why you consider naturalizing as US citizen? Is it just for easier traveling? Or is it civic obligations that you want to do (vote, become jury, police, military)?

As you mentioned earlier green card holder basically almost have the same rights as a citizen so why naturalize?

I have permanent resident in one of EU country and I am really thinking of naturalization. But for me I have the clear benefit that I will be able to work freely in EU.

Always interested to see how other people think

 

[123tompel]

That's an expired green card, of course it's rejected. The holder probably reported it as lost when naturalizing.

Any way, until you show evidence of people with valid green cards being rejected for passport renewal, it's just FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt)

If it is of any help I can say that in the Nordic countries that indo embassy require copies of residence permit for renewing passport. This residence permit is usually returned to the immigration when a person naturalizes. So no permit no indo passport.

In Sweden they just ask for population register based on your social security number. This register contains information of citizenship. So no way you can extend indo passport on embassy while having swedish citizenship.