Hello from a soon-to-be ex from the US

[flavus]

Found this forum during my research into what relinquishing my citizenship entails, and really like the camaraderie on display here.

@pantaiema suggested the Axing the Ex thread, which I have actually read but seems to describe the opposite of my current circumstances (though an interesting read!) so I figured I'll start a new one instead.

My intro post:
https://www.expatindo.org/community/threads/hello-from-the-us.7111/

TL;DR - third culture kid, WNI parents still living in Indonesia, so I'll be around for visits in the future. Preempting what seems a popular question, didn't really experience anti-Asian animosity during the COVID emergencies but I also get to work remotely, don't live downtown and tend not to visit places like Chinatowns or other ethnic neighborhoods too often.

 

[SamR]

When you say you are a soon to be ex, do you mean that you have applied for another citizenship and are just waiting for the process to play itself out or you've decided to apply for another citizenship but the process hasn't begun?

 

[flavus]

When you say you are a soon to be ex, do you mean that you have applied for another citizenship and are just waiting for the process to play itself out or you've decided to apply for another citizenship but the process hasn't begun?

The former, I'm currently scheduled for my naturalization interview.

The comparison with immigrating to Indonesia is certainly interesting - in the US the hard slog is getting permanent residence, the naturalization is easier (and as a PR you have no work restriction - except govt jobs and those that require security clearance maybe). In Indonesia it seems the naturalization process is harder than getting KITAP unless you're married to a WNI.

How to obtain Indonesian Citizenship

I'm seeking some information on how to get indonedian citizenship. To answer some questions one might have.... Why? Because this is home, I don't like having to do business awkwardly due to my citizenship, and...a whole bunch of other headaches would be relieved. If I want to move back to the...

www.expatindo.org

 

[SamR]

In Indonesia it seems the naturalization process is harder than getting KITAP unless you're married to a WNI.

Incidentally, I got my Kitap today and I can say a Kitap is not without its own hazards. Its late at night now but long story short, in my experience people do exist who prefer it that you have to jump through the immigration hoops on a yearly rather than a 5-yearly basis because it means the income they get from you is on a yearly rather than on a 5-yearly basis.

 

[flavus]

Incidentally, I got my Kitap today and I can say a Kitap is not without its own hazards.

Congratulations! Yeah, from the outside looking in, KITAP also looks messier than US PR documentation-wise -- but faster? The fastest you can get a PR in the US is about one and a half year from filing date - and need sponsorship from either employer or family, unless you're in one of the few categories that can self-sponsor.

 

[jukung11]

The former, I'm currently scheduled for my naturalization interview

Good luck.

 

[flavus]

Good luck

Thank you! One can only hope future generations have it easier to move between countries, but given all the politics involved and pressure due to refugees and economic migrants I'm just glad it's not even worse

 

[pantaiema]

The former, I'm currently scheduled for my naturalization interview.

The comparison with immigrating to Indonesia is certainly interesting - in the US the hard slog is getting permanent residence, the naturalization is easier (and as a PR you have no work restriction - except govt jobs and those that require security clearance maybe). In Indonesia it seems the naturalization process is harder than getting KITAP unless you're married to a WNI.

How to obtain Indonesian Citizenship

I'm seeking some information on how to get indonedian citizenship. To answer some questions one might have.... Why? Because this is home, I don't like having to do business awkwardly due to my citizenship, and...a whole bunch of other headaches would be relieved. If I want to move back to the...

www.expatindo.org

The US government allow US citizen to have multi nationalities
Does the US government require you to tell them what other nationalities you have ?? Is it required by law ??
If not I believe you are not doing something illegal, by not telling them. Or is there any problem you might be facing doing this ??
Sometimes giving too much information that is not required or giving it too early will cause a person a trouble which he might regret it later.

 

[flavus]

The US government allow US citizen to have multi nationalities
Does the US government require you to tell them what other nationalities you have ?? Is it required by law ??
If not I believe you are not doing something illegal, if you do not tell them. Or is there any problem you might be facing by not telling them ??

I'm sorry, what do you mean here? The comment you're replying to just talks about naturalizing in the US vs in Indonesia

The US allows having multiple nationalities (you only need to disclose it if you're applying to sensitive jobs, and it might make it harder to gain employment there or security clearance, otherwise the government doesn't care). Indonesia doesn't, so I plan on doing the right thing and get my renouncement done properly just in case I ever want to stay longer in Indonesia in the future.

 

[pantaiema]

I'm sorry, what do you mean here? The comment you're replying to just talks about naturalizing in the US vs in Indonesia

The US allows having multiple nationalities (you only need to disclose it if you're applying to sensitive jobs, and it might make it harder to gain employment there or security clearance, otherwise the government doesn't care). Indonesia doesn't, so I plan on doing the right thing and get my renouncement done properly just in case I ever want to stay longer in Indonesia in the future.

Could you not do that when you need it, not before. This is the thing you could legally do anytime as there is no deadline for doing that, no penalties either.
People said you will automatically lose your Indonesian citizenship, But as I understand, there is no legal requirement to formally report it to Indonesian Embassy or consular in the US. If there is, it is probably better to see what the law is saying in this regard.
The case is different for foreign citizens applying nationalities though naturalisation from the following countries:
Austria.
Bulgaria.
Czechia.
Denmark.
Netherlands.
Spain.
These countries require people to renounce their citizenships before taking up their new citizenship through naturalisation. So this will not be an option for a foreign citizen applies citizenships in these countries.
Just opinion, not an advice..

 

[flavus]

Could you not do that when you need it, not before.

I could... but that would be quite soon (Indo passport expires in 2025). And that would mean if I want to visit Indonesia I would have to route through Singapore to swap passports.

Can't renew at the consulate since I won't have a PR card.

So... not really saving much access anyway.

 

[SamR]

The fastest you can get a PR in the US is about one and a half year from filing date - and need sponsorship from either employer or family, unless you're in one of the few categories that can self-sponsor.

One and a half years is all right as long as the process is clear. I qualified to apply for a Kitap a full five years ago but I had an agent who kept advising me against applying for a Kitap because it would take too long and it took me a while but I figured out that this agent was trying to make sure that I'm an annual as opposed to a five-yearly customer. So I changed agents to a more credible one and lo and behold, I got a Kitap.

People said you will automatically lose your Indonesian citizenship, But as I understand, there is no legal requirement to formally report it to Indonesian Embassy or consular in the US. If there is, it is probably better to see what the law is saying in this regard.

My take on this:

-If you've gained another citizenship and your intention is to reside in Indonesia, eventually you have to report. It took me 2.5 years to report that I had gained a foreign citizenship (Aus) but it became unavoidable when I applied for a Kitas to work in Indonesia. So when my visa or whatever was issued by the Indonesian Consulate General in Sydney, I had to hand in my Indonesian passport at the same time.

-Remember that even if you don't report/disclose and you manage to get into Indonesia with the two passports trick, the nation that you are now a citizen of will have your proof of citizenship on their file. Ie. if you become a US citizen, even if you don't declare it and even if you live in Indonesia with Indonesian documents, the US Embassy is sure to have evidence of your citizenship in their files. 2 years ago there was a case of someone winning in the local elections and then being found to be an American citizen. How did they figure out that he was an American citizen? They asked the US Consulate General in Indonesia. https://www.mkri.id/index.php?page=web.Berita&id=17215&menu=2

-Last but not least, there is anecdotal evidence that Indonesian Immigration are getting better at sniffing out the "two passports" trick. Allow me to copy and paste from another thread:

My uncle has a family friend who is an ex-WNI/Aussie Citizen. This family friend was recently on a trip to Sydney and when he was checking in at Sydney Airport to depart for Jakarta at the self-check in counter, the self-check in machine told him to stay for "additional verification of travel documents". The airline check-in person then came over and asked some extra questions. This family friend went through the verification just fine but said that in addition to being asked to show his Kitas, he was also specifically asked whether he had "one passport or two passports" with him (and he thanked the heavens he didn't buy into the "two passports trick" that people suggested when they knew he's taken on the citizenship of another country).

Unless there's some new security measure implemented during the pandemic, I can't imagine this is something an airline would go to the trouble of making sure. Forget about waiting to get caught at Soetta Immigration, they're on to you all the way at the check in counter when you depart.

 

[jstar]

But as I understand, there is no legal requirement to formally report it to Indonesian Embassy or consular in the US. If there is, it is probably better to see what the law is saying in this regard

Remembering reading the law text at the time (don’t have time to look it up now) I think it’s the opposite; it’s a mandatory but extremely heavy process to renounce Indonesian citizenship and even requires presidential approval. In reality people just get the other one first.

Talking about that; these countries that you mention can say whatever they want but there are some states that won’t even let you lose your citizenship, for instance Morocco and Greece. So try to deal with that. (Belgium for instance, switched to a pragmatic approach. Now they’re waiting for the EU regulations.)

 

[Samoerai]

Remembering reading the law text at the time (don’t have time to look it up now) I think it’s the opposite; it’s a mandatory but extremely heavy process to renounce Indonesian citizenship and even requires presidential approval. In reality people just get the other one first.

Talking about that; these countries that you mention can say whatever they want but there are some states that won’t even let you lose your citizenship, for instance Morocco and Greece. So try to deal with that. (Belgium for instance, switched to a pragmatic approach. Now they’re waiting for the EU regulations.)

In another thread about citizenship, someone said that publication and presidential approval is no longer required, referring to this https://www.mkri.id/public/content/persidangan/putusan/putusan_mkri_7794.pdf

 

[flavus]

I think it’s the opposite; it’s a mandatory but extremely heavy process to renounce Indonesian citizenship and even requires presidential approval. In reality people just get the other one first.

Right, I think the procedure is to inform the Indonesian consulate right after you obtain the other citizenship. Definitely a convoluted process, since as you said it only becomes official once your name is published (same as I think newly nsturslized Indonesians get their names published?)

Some countries in Europe - I think Germany is one - requires you to renounce other citizenships and have proof of it at the time of naturalization (basically a letter from the consulate saying they know you want to naturalize and will give up your citizenship as soon as you do) - the US just have an oath of allegiance where, funnily, the text does say you renounce previous allegiances. Apparently countries that recognize dual citizenship don't really see this as binding

Oath of Allegiance (United States) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[flavus]

One and a half years is all right as long as the process is clear. I qualified to apply for a Kitap a full five years ago but I had an agent who kept advising me against applying for a Kitap because it would take too long and it took me a while but I figured out that this agent was trying to make sure that I'm an annual as opposed to a five-yearly customer. So I changed agents to a more credible one and lo and behold, I got a Kitap.


My take on this:

-If you've gained another citizenship and your intention is to reside in Indonesia, eventually you have to report. It took me 2.5 years to report that I had gained a foreign citizenship (Aus) but it became unavoidable when I applied for a Kitas to work in Indonesia. So when my visa or whatever was issued by the Indonesian Consulate General in Sydney, I had to hand in my Indonesian passport at the same time.

-Remember that even if you don't report/disclose and you manage to get into Indonesia with the two passports trick, the nation that you are now a citizen of will have your proof of citizenship on their file. Ie. if you become a US citizen, even if you don't declare it and even if you live in Indonesia with Indonesian documents, the US Embassy is sure to have evidence of your citizenship in their files. 2 years ago there was a case of someone winning in the local elections and then being found to be an American citizen. How did they figure out that he was an American citizen? They asked the US Consulate General in Indonesia. https://www.mkri.id/index.php?page=web.Berita&id=17215&menu=2

-Last but not least, there is anecdotal evidence that Indonesian Immigration are getting better at sniffing out the "two passports" trick. Allow me to copy and paste from another thread:

My uncle has a family friend who is an ex-WNI/Aussie Citizen. This family friend was recently on a trip to Sydney and when he was checking in at Sydney Airport to depart for Jakarta at the self-check in counter, the self-check in machine told him to stay for "additional verification of travel documents". The airline check-in person then came over and asked some extra questions. This family friend went through the verification just fine but said that in addition to being asked to show his Kitas, he was also specifically asked whether he had "one passport or two passports" with him (and he thanked the heavens he didn't buy into the "two passports trick" that people suggested when they knew he's taken on the citizenship of another country).

Unless there's some new security measure implemented during the pandemic, I can't imagine this is something an airline would go to the trouble of making sure. Forget about waiting to get caught at Soetta Immigration, they're on to you all the way at the check in counter when you depart.

Oh yeah, it's been awhile. You have to show you have the legal right to enter the destination country - I get that when I'm visiting Singapore from the US too

It makes it a pain if you are based in a country where you are not a citizen, as their database and ID verification systems are geared towards what nationals of that country needs when traveling. Basically I can't check in online to any outbound international flights from the US except to Indonesia

 

[pantaiema]

I could... but that would be quite soon (Indo passport expires in 2025). And that would mean if I want to visit Indonesia I would have to route through Singapore to swap passports.

Can't renew at the consulate since I won't have a PR card.

So... not really saving much access anyway.

As I understand, even you have your permanent Residence document is not stamped on your passport but you have it on separate card, the Indonesian Embassy is not going the renew your passport. They are not stupid. If you have been permanent residence for many years why on earth a sensible person will not naturalise if his intention is to stay in that country for indefinite time ?? You have a passport that allow you to travel frictionless to other countries, free to work without restriction. This case has been reported many times in many forums.

When you ask to renew your Indonesian passport, the Indonesian embassy will ask you a letter from the Immigration/home office in the country of your residence as a proof that you have not applied for naturalisation. They just copied what the Chinese government has been doing for many years for their diasporas living abroad.

Whether it is legal to ask such document is subject to another debate. Keep in mind the US government or other other government will not issue such letter, let alone personal information about their citizens. Do that there are many lawyers will take the case with no win no fee approach eyeing for a big cut for compensation.

You see various cases mentioned above he even managed to become a Major before they has been discovered. In the past there were a few Indonesian high ranking officials, politicians, ministers have another nationality but they do not declare it. This is even very severe violation as to become a civil servant in Indonesia you will need to be an Indonesian citizen. These people probably stick to "Caveat Emptor", It is the onus on the authority to proof it, as there is no legal requirement to voluntarily report it.

Especially for those who were born in the US, it does not even need a letter from the US embassy to know that they are automatically a US citizen. No ifs, no buts it is written in the constitution.

Again this is just a personal opinion so you take it with a pinch of salt.

 

[flavus]

if you have been permanent residence for many years why on earth a sensible person will not naturalise if your intantion to to stay in that country for indefinite time

This is actually not unusual: if you have a wealthy family in Indonesia for instance, since it makes inheritance easier. Or if you have some other ties. In the US, UK and the EU, as far as I can tell, as a PR you get the same treatment as citizens mostly except you can't vote*, take certain government jobs, and your travel is restricted by your original passport*. It's not as limiting as Indonesia's KITAP which really needs to change.

• UK let commonwealth citizens vote (yes really), and EU let other EU citizens vote in local and EU elections, but not national / provincial)
• If you reside in the Schengen area with any passport you can also travel freely to other Schengen countries

When you naturalize in the US the government takes back your green card. So - the Indonesian consulate can just ask to see the green card as proof that you are still an Indonesian citizen. Before I had one IIRC I show my student and work visas.

You seem to be quite keen on me retaining my passport for as long as possible. Thanks, but as I and jstar noted, it's not easy and doing so without being caught would require travel shenanigans* that - should it come up - would likely land me in trouble anyway "so you have been breaking your trips in Singapore the past few years, any explanation for that"?

*You can't leave or enter a country in which you are a citizen with another country's passport, so... I will have to leave US with US passport and enter Indonesia with Indonesian passport.

Also, bear in mind that... I might not necessarily be sad to give up my Indonesian passport. I would keep it if legally possible, but since it's definitely not, then why take the risk.

(Even if the law miraculously were to change before my passport expires, I would still be in violation when they check when I naturalize)

 

[jstar]

In another thread about citizenship, someone said that publication and presidential approval is no longer required, referring to this https://www.mkri.id/public/content/persidangan/putusan/putusan_mkri_7794.pdf

Pfff, you let me read 176 pages?

Anyway, this court order / adjudication does not really contradict anything of the UU 12/ 2006 and PP 2/2007 if I see this:

Terkait proses pelepasan kewarganegaraan, apabila ada pemohon datang ke KBRI maka KBRI menyiapkan beberapa for mulir untuk diisi yang bersangkutan. Pelepasan kewarganegaraan akan dilaporkan ke Jakarta, kemudian Kementerian Hukum dan HAM mengeluarkan keputusan (sebenarnya Keputusan Presiden) mengenai hilangnya kewarganegaraan seseorang. Pemerintah AS tidak memberika n informasi kepada KBRI mengenai perubahan status kewarganegaraan WNI menjadi warga negara AS.

Quick and dirty translation:
Regarding the process of relinquishing citizenship, if an applicant comes to the Indonesian Embassy, the Indonesian Embassy will prepare several forms for the person concerned to fill out. The renunciation of citizenship will be reported to Jakarta, then the Ministry of Law and Human Rights issues a decision (actually a Presidential Decree) regarding the loss of a person's citizenship.

.
So, the path still seems to be the same. From Indonesia.Go.ID:

To relinquished the status of Indonesian citizens, the applicant must have another citizenship first before taking care of the application for losing Indonesian citizenship. The application for loss of Citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia is submitted in writing by the person concerned to the President through the Minister. The application is made in Indonesian on sufficiently stamped paper and at least contains: full name, place and date of birth, residential address, occupation, gender, marital status of the applicant, and reason for the application. Applications must be attached with:

1. photocopy of the birth certificate quote or letter proving the applicant's birth authorized by the Head of Representative of the Republic of Indonesia;
2. photocopy of marriage certificate/marriage book, divorce certificate quote/divorce/divorce certificate, or quote of the applicant's wife/husband's death certificate for those who are not yet 18 (eighteen) years old and have married which is certified by the Head of Representatives of the Republic of Indonesia;
3. photocopy of the Travel Letter of the Republic of Indonesia or Identity Card authorized by the Head of Representative of the Republic of Indonesia;
4. a certificate from a foreign representative that with the loss of Citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia the applicant will become a foreign citizen; and
5. the latest applicant's photo is colored 4X6 (four times six) centimeters as much as 6 (six) sheets.

Here are the procedures for releasing Indonesian citizenship:

1. The application as referred to in paragraph (2) and its attachments are submitted to representatives of the Republic of Indonesia whose working area includes the applicant's residence.
2. Representatives of the Republic of Indonesia check the completeness of the application requirements within a maximum of 14 (fourteen) days from the date of receipt of the application.
3. If the application file is complete, the Representative of the Republic of Indonesia submits the request to the Minister within a maximum of 2 (two) months from the date the application is received in full.
4. After receiving the application from the Representative of the Republic of Indonesia, the Minister checks the application within a maximum of 14 (fourteen) days.
5. If the file is complete, the Minister will forward the application to the President for a maximum of 14 days from the date the application is received.
6. The President made a decision regarding the names of the people who lost the Citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia and forwarded to the Representative of the Republic of Indonesia
7. Representatives of the Republic of Indonesia submit the Presidential Decree to the applicant within 7 (seven) days from the date the Presidential Decree is received.
8. The Minister announced the name of the person who lost the Citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia in the State Gazette of the Republic of Indonesia.

 

[Samoerai]

Pfff, you let me read 176 pages?

Anyway, this court order / adjudication does not really contradict anything of the UU 12/ 2006 and PP 2/2007 if I see this:

Terkait proses pelepasan kewarganegaraan, apabila ada pemohon datang ke KBRI maka KBRI menyiapkan beberapa for mulir untuk diisi yang bersangkutan. Pelepasan kewarganegaraan akan dilaporkan ke Jakarta, kemudian Kementerian Hukum dan HAM mengeluarkan keputusan (sebenarnya Keputusan Presiden) mengenai hilangnya kewarganegaraan seseorang. Pemerintah AS tidak memberika n informasi kepada KBRI mengenai perubahan status kewarganegaraan WNI menjadi warga negara AS.

Quick and dirty translation:
Regarding the process of relinquishing citizenship, if an applicant comes to the Indonesian Embassy, the Indonesian Embassy will prepare several forms for the person concerned to fill out. The renunciation of citizenship will be reported to Jakarta, then the Ministry of Law and Human Rights issues a decision (actually a Presidential Decree) regarding the loss of a person's citizenship.

.
So, the path still seems to be the same. From Indonesia.Go.ID:

It's not easy to lose one's Indonesian citizenship ..