First major car accident in Indonesia

[atlantis]

Eventually a cop came, told us if we can't find an agreement we would go to courts and vehicles would be held until judgment.

In the end I let it go.

The cop told you Bulls**t EG, in order to press a settlement.

What a cop don't want is that the two parties don't reach an agreement and that he has to bring them to the station to investigate the case. It involves time and effort so ANY cop will try to see what party is the weakest to discourage them and will make sure the case is settled with no wave.

Cops and many Indonesian also know that bule are not overly patient, that they hate waste time and are often uncomfortable discussing an issue when surrounded by a crowd. They know that time plays in their favor in these case and that there is a fair chance that the bule involved give up quickly.

As you know, I was involved (still is but has better fish to fry than dealing with traffic incident ) in a transportation company with a fleet of trucks, pick ups and cars. I have been involved in over two dozens (very probably more) similar situation where one of our vehicle got involved in an accident. Mostly minor stuff but three cases were not. I was systematically the one dealing with these situations. Our drivers had a very simple order: In case of an accident where a fair settlement could not be reached they had to call me and wait for me.

Often the cops gave me the "can't find an agreement / go to courts / vehicles would be held until judgment" bit. At least at the beginning. Soon cops understood that it wasn't impressive and that with no settlement reach on the TKP, we would all go to the police station to settle it and start the procedure.

If you go to the police station, cops will have to take the BAP of both parties + witness. Cars will be theoretically seized but you can ask for an immediate release (assuming the boss is around to sign the paper). In all serious case involved I can't remember a car being "seized" for more than 48h and in all minor accident the release happened immediately.

If the cops see that you stand your ground they will try the other party to give up. Again, what they want to avoid is paperwork. I have seen cops totally switching side just because they understood we would force them to follow the procedure if needed.

* I had similar experience in Bali (friend of mine managed to get two accidents in the same day) and Jogja (a car hit the right end of my car when going out from a gang without marking the stop). No differences noted from my experiences in Manado.

 

[jstar]

.
It's kind of peculiar that those here who state 'bule always at fault is a myth', give all and only examples of the opposite?!

There is a mixup.
I am talking about a mindset you encounter and see here. Yes, the more priveledged in society (rich, bule, Chinese, ...) is always at fault.
Other members have told us what they do to get out of that situation. Which is good, but it doesn't change the fact that before the whole interaction starts, there is this mindset and expression of putting blame. Especially if there is a group and potential mob. (Illustrated by the many examples.)

Now I did not give any info about how my particular cases ended -and many were satisfactory in the end- but for me that is also not so relevant; it is a frustrating ordeal for many who are in that situation. Some in my F-I-L even don't want to drive anymore, afraid of (nearly) public lynching, with an often powerless law.
.

 

[atlantis]

.it doesn't change the fact that before the whole interaction starts, there is this mindset and expression of putting blame. Especially is there is a group and potential mob. (Illustrated by the many examples.)
.

No one said it is untrue, jstar. We only say that it is NOT something one should accept, that this is not something which always happen and, more importantly, this is not something a bule can not overcome when/if it happens.
When someone says "Doesn't matter what you're always at fault.", it sounds definite, with no solution and this is what Gratilla, Wk and I disagree with. To me, the problem is that it reflects a wrong image for any newbie. It sounds like, no matter what the blame will stay on me. Sorry, it is absolutely wrong.

I wouldn't mind if someone, despite the offensive generalization, would say "Doesn't matter what you're always at fault" and add that one "can get out of that situation" as you have done in your above post. This would already reflect a bit better the truth imho..

To me, it reminds me a few years ago, before we started to socialize and explain Indonesian immigration law. Some people were saying "no matter what, if you don't pay bribe, your ITAS wont be issued". We have proven it was a myth. Same for traffic incident, same for bule can't get a fair price. We are not perpetual victims.


Also, in a number case I have dealt with Indonesian which were honest and admitted their wrong. At least, for them it would be fair not to say that we are "always at fault". They were mostly people with means and didn't have to desperately deny any wrong, but I also met people with little means who went to great effort to repay their due following a wrong.

 

[Bad_azz]

I concur, the bule is not always at fault- I have probably mentioned this before... anyway:
I was in the back of a taxi who made a left turn and didn't fully check his mirrors, he hit a scooter driver (broken legs & mashed up scooter) The driver left the meter running and me still in the back ... eventually he came cback to me & said I must pay for the damage.
Now I was aware of all the info & advice abt the bule keeping out of the mob. But I tend to just do my own thing- I went into the middle of the mob and spoke to the poor sod with his broken leg & the group of ojek driver who had gathered around him.
I pointed out to them that the taxi company really should have insurance & that the driver was trying to blame me which was very wrong of him, & that I was merely a normal person married to a local guy & not some rich arrogant bule with a bad attitude. I suggested that one of them take down all the taxi details & ring the company and inform them of the incident , as the driver wasn't going to. I suggested that they get the taxi company to fund the ambulance and medical bills. At that, I felt I had contributed all I could.
Luckily I had enough bhs Indonesia to convey all of this.
I paid the taxi driver what the meter showed & told him to switch it off & that I was walking (it had by this time got up to the limit of the cash I had on me).
One of the ojeks asked me where I was heading - I said not far & that I could walk as I had no cash left, he was very kind and insisted on giving me a ride FOR FREE.

 

[Gratilla]

... insisted on giving me a ride FOR FREE.

Segue to an interesting innuendo there. Fortunately I'm above such innanity. Because ..

... it very certainly is a case of some being smoother than others.

I'm just sooo smoooooth!

 

[El_Goretto]

@atlantis, very informative post. I think this could be a very useful article: what to do when in a traffic accident in Indonesia.

@jstar I also agree with the tendency that the rich/bule/Chinese is mostly always assumed to be at fault initially. And of course, there are ways to reverse the situation and stand for our own rights.

 

[rabbit_39]

@jstar I also agree with the tendency that the rich/bule/Chinese is mostly always assumed to be at fault initially. And of course, there are ways to reverse the situation and stand for our own rights.[/QUOTE]

With all respect to everyone, while everything said is true about standing up for our rights, it is still much riskier to do this in Indonesia where mob mentality rules. Search google on the various incidences of suspected thieves were burned alive (even when there's no proof) or died because of the mob attack, or seriously injured. Plenty of documentation where the mob damaged property in addition to physical harm to person(s). I would make sure that we also look at the situation and make an informed decision whether to stand for our own rights or to let it go (in fear of our lives and property). Personally I've been too foolish and demanded justice in Indonesia. Which of course doesn't always exist with the speed and in the type that we're accustomed to (and should be available in Indonesia).

 

[macvert]

In negotiation, an ambit claim is an extravagant initial demand made in expectation of an eventual counter-offer and compromise.

 

[William King]

Now this is rather contradictory. (So somebody makes a huge mistake and creates an accident, doesn't want to take the blame, then you leave out what happened; didn't he blame you? What was his rationale for not agreeing to cover the damage?)

NB: Also, it proves (again and again and again and ....) it is all very subjective. A policeman can obviously officially not make somebody pay another civilian, they are no judges. And if it's unclear they need to confiscate the vehicles until after the report. That's also the problem if there's no mandatory insurance.

Contradictory ? How ?

He was trying to overtake me in heavy traffic on a single lane road. He misjudged the distance and side swiped me to get out of the way of an oncoming truck.

He claimed because he had his indicators on that he was allowed to move into the position in front of me.

We argued a bit, so I said ok, let's go to the nearest police station and let them sort it out. He agreed, but then drove off in opposite direction.

I figured, I needed a police report for insurance anyway and went down. The man had given me his business card, and I had a photo of his SIM. So at police station the cops rang him, gave him a hard time and threaten to visit him at his factory tomorrow or he could return and pay now.

 

[Jaime C]

Here’s a fun with insurance experience.

We have a modest car rental benefit on our policy of 5jt. We tried to use it, but were told the damage has to be 75% for it to kick in.

They’ve quoted us a month to repair the car. Seems a bit ridiculous.

 

[jstar]

Yes it is. No replacement vehicle?

 

[Jaime C]

Yes it is. No replacement vehicle?

Nope, hence the rental car expectation.

 

[rabbit_39]

Here’s a fun with insurance experience.

We have a modest car rental benefit on our policy of 5jt. We tried to use it, but were told the damage has to be 75% for it to kick in.

They’ve quoted us a month to repair the car. Seems a bit ridiculous.

Did you check the policy where it syas that? Often in Indonesia people just say things without any basis. Especially when it is something that will cost them something (money, time, effort, anything) .

Even talking to the authorities you still can't trust them and you have to make sure you know the primary source of the information (written, not someone's say so)

 

[Jaime C]

Did you check the policy where it syas that? Often in Indonesia people just say things without any basis. Especially when it is something that will cost them something (money, time, effort, anything) .

Even talking to the authorities you still can't trust them and you have to make sure you know the primary source of the information (written, not someone's say so)

Yes, the policy did say that. I think we’d likely be dead if the vehicle was 75% damaged, though.

Again, other than being sore for awhile, I’m glad it wasn’t worse.

 

[Jaime C]

Ibu finally found the adaptor for the MicroSD card we had in the front facing camera. I went to view the crash tonight, but so far, I can only see a few files before the crash, and right after the crash. I get errors on the file I think has the crash.

The quality is quite good, but this is the first time I’ve actually looked at any of the video from this camera, as we replaced it earlier this year. The old one broke, but it was lower quality video.

 

[rabbit_39]

Yes, the policy did say that. I think we’d likely be dead if the vehicle was 75% damaged, though.

Again, other than being sore for awhile, I’m glad it wasn’t worse.

I'm glad to hear that you're okay... want to preface the next sentence with that.

Now,a bout the 75% damage, don't forget that it's not physical damage that they're counting. It's the value of the damage. for example if you receive a front end damage and for some reason it screws up the engine, engine mount, transmission, transmission mount, frame, axles, you won't see a lot of physical damage. However, the value of the damage is likely closer to 100% of the value of the replacement vehicle. And with this type of damage, you might get away with minor injuries as well, just structurally it is screwed up.

 

[snpark]

That's why the insurance scam years ago on older sports cars, boy racer pocket rockets etc (like a 10 year old xr3i etc) was just steal the alloy wheels and the recaro seats, since the cost of brand new set of alloys and seats was more than the insured value of the car in scrap etc, you get paid out, you buy back the salvage, go buy some second hand alloys and seats and there you go, you got your car back and some pocket money too.
Allegedly