Expat Court Victories?

Vulgarian

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Nov 23, 2017
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243
Bit of a broad question, but has anyone heard of any situation where a contract dispute between an expat hire and an Indonesian company has gone all the way to court and the expat has won?

I personally haven't heard of one - mostly because one party (guess who) throws in the towel before it reaches that stage.

Any stories of sticking it to the man?
 
Sorry, it's not a court victory. But last night I got the "This not your country" line from a manager who didn't quite get the numbers right on a bill of mine when I questioned him ( I was given a couple of dishes from another table and it went on for a while). I asked for the owner, who took some finding,and received a deep apology.

It's a little bule win, but a win none-the-less.

Good topic.
 
Bit of a broad question, but has anyone heard of any situation where a contract dispute between an expat hire and an Indonesian company has gone all the way to court and the expat has won?

I personally haven't heard of one - mostly because one party (guess who) throws in the towel before it reaches that stage.

Any stories of sticking it to the man?
There is at least one case. The case of the late Terry Collins et al. Perhaps someone here may know more than I do, and are prepared to explain. As far as I know, they won but the losing party refused to pay. This was a civil case.
 
Terry Collins aka Jakartass? I didn't know he'd died. Aw shit. I already regret this thread.
 
The one and only. He passed away in February this year, leaving a wife and two sons.
 
Jakatyass ? Wait, what? Care to shed some light?
I would rather not El G. I don't feel that I can do him (Jakartass) justice in this space. Many kind words were said back then. I rather think Terry wouldn't mind that he is still remembered and missed. He wrote for Jakarta Expat and Jakarta Post. Perhaps something was mentioned there. He was 71 or 72 and had been feeling poorly for a while.
 
I would rather not El G. I don't feel that I can do him (Jakartass) justice in this space. Many kind words were said back then. I rather think Terry wouldn't mind that he is still remembered and missed. He wrote for Jakarta Expat and Jakarta Post. Perhaps something was mentioned there. He was 71 or 72 and had been feeling poorly for a while.

Oh I see, thank you for the explanation, I must have read some of his articles but without paying attention to the author. Sad news indeed.
 
The legal process and the judges being what they are most people who have been here long enough know that the law is very much stacked against us - its a part of their inherent mindset having been colonized for so long. The nationalistic bullshit and the classic "this isn't your country" mentality usually prevail.
 
My (foreign) company won a small civil case brought against us. But the court refused to close the case/ make ruling official until their 'expenses' were paid. I was fine with just sending someone to court every time required, but the co-defendent (a local firm) couldn't afford that so paid up - in the 5 figures USD
 
My (foreign-owned) current company is currently suing a local company for unpaid bills, I'm not privy to the full details but from what I understand they had to find 3 other claimants and went to Commercial Court.

The prequel wasn't pretty with a lot of threats issued from their side, "We are family friends with Hotman Paris, we will crush you in court", "You better stop now or else we'll get all your KITAS's cancelled and kick you back to your country" blablabla.

The first court-date was recently, Hotman Paris was nowhere to be seen and we're all still here..

Although this is obviously a different situation from your question. Unrelated to the above, I do believe @atlantis has won a case in court in Indonesia, but once again unrelated to the specific question from OP.
 
To be a bit more precise on the OP's original question, recently another expat I was having a beer with claimed I would be entitled to "long service pay" upon resignation from my company. A total of 2 months pay as I am over 3 years but below 6 years with the company. Although I take these kinds of claims with a heavy grain of salt, 2 months salary piqued my interest enough to do a bit of googling.

So that regulation does exist, however seems to be applicable to permanent employees in Indonesia only. The question if I as an expat can be considered a permanent employee after 2 successive employment contracts just as locals seems to be answered with a no, following a Supreme Court decision (SEMA No. 1 2017 B.2.b.1) which states (translated):


(a) An expatriate may only be employed in Indonesia on the basis of a specific job and a FTEC.

(b) Only an expatriate employee in respect of whom an Expatriate Employment License (“IMTA”) has been issued is entitled to enjoy protection.

(c) Upon the expiry of an expatriate employee’s IMTA, he/she will no longer enjoy legal protection.

Now why does this relate to the OP's specific question? If the Supreme Court of Indonesia has taken the time to make a judgement basically saying that "Foreigners in Indonesia can only be employed on a Fixed Term Employment Contract", logic says it means there have been court cases that that have argued a legal dispute on contract between employee and employer that made it as far as the SC. Perhaps OP can google a bit deeper to see which cases have prompted this decision by the SC.
 
To be a bit more precise on the OP's original question, recently another expat I was having a beer with claimed I would be entitled to "long service pay" upon resignation from my company. A total of 2 months pay as I am over 3 years but below 6 years with the company. Although I take these kinds of claims with a heavy grain of salt, 2 months salary piqued my interest enough to do a bit of googling.

So that regulation does exist, however seems to be applicable to permanent employees in Indonesia only. The question if I as an expat can be considered a permanent employee after 2 successive employment contracts just as locals seems to be answered with a no, following a Supreme Court decision (SEMA No. 1 2017 B.2.b.1) which states (translated):




Now why does this relate to the OP's specific question? If the Supreme Court of Indonesia has taken the time to make a judgement basically saying that "Foreigners in Indonesia can only be employed on a Fixed Term Employment Contract", logic says it means there have been court cases that that have argued a legal dispute on contract between employee and employer that made it as far as the SC. Perhaps OP can google a bit deeper to see which cases have prompted this decision by the SC.

Letting this sink in a bit, it does suggest that the expat was not the winner in this case..
 
Therein lies the rub - we are not considered permant since the IMTA / KITAS etc are renewable, the work contract is not allowed to be permanent, has to be renewable etc etc hence you will never be classified as a permanent employee
 
Therein lies the rub - we are not considered permant since the IMTA / KITAS etc are renewable, the work contract is not allowed to be permanent, has to be renewable etc etc hence you will never be classified as a permanent employee

Exactly.. I've learned to not count my chickens before they hatch.. Bye2 Ducati :(
 
Although this is obviously a different situation from your question. Unrelated to the above, I do believe @atlantis has won a case in court in Indonesia, but once again unrelated to the specific question from OP.
You are correct, I won a case but as you stressed it, it was a very different issue than the OP. It was a criminal case where I was (wrongly) accused.

Criminal cases are tricky, but I believe that you can still get your right respected as long as you make sure you keep the case as "discreet" as possible and that you can swim in dirty waters while remaining as clean as possible and not loosing either your temper or sanity.

Often foreigners do a terrible mistake: they believe that giving the maximum publicity to a case, having a flamboyant and well known lawyer and running to the embassy to try to get them involved is the key. Many times it's the reverse of what should be done, imho.

In my case I contacted the embassy to inform them that I was a citizen and that I was involved in a criminal trial but that I did NOT need any form of help from them (something they were very happy to hear). I also hired a couple of very average, cheap and ready-to-do-do-what-I-wanted lawyers and handle the whole thing as discreetly as possible while refusing any of the numerous monetary demand for a "fair" settlement.

Oh God, you can't imagine during the 10 months the whole saga lasted, the pressure "they" have tried to put on me and the number of time "they" have tried to extort me. Even the Ketua Panitera, in front of his whole office and wth no shame, asked the pair of Oakley sunglasses I had and told me he would make my life harder should I refuse. I told him in a very clear way to f*** o** and he kept his promises. Even security officers were trying. Heck! Even the warden accompanying accused from Court to Penitentiary tried, perhaps thinking I'd be a future guest.

Despite this, I focused on the case and proved I wasn't guilty of what was reproached to me.

However, I believe that what has won my acquittal, more than the proofs brought, is the relation I ended having with the judges and the medias. To be honest, in many of the case I have followed or studied, I often had the impression that proofs were secondary. It is undoubtedly the relation I had with the judges which has made the final decision. In this regard, being a "bule" helped me. They obviously enjoyed hearing me speaking bahasa Manado and they weren't missing an occasion to ask me to speak, often entering in a banter with me. It was obvious that, many times questions directed to me were just excuses to hear this funny bule using local expressions. From the first week to the last week, the Court room went from just a few people attending to a Court packed with people... and, more importantly for the judges, with medias. It was good for the judges as well as it was good for me and week after week I moved from the "bad bule" image to the "bule Manado" image. It took me time to realize (and accept) that it is not the legal work I did at the time which won the acquittal but only the fact that I managed to appear sympathetic to the public opinion and judges. I think that even if I would have been guilty I would have won the acquittal this way because I am not under the impression that proofs and testimonies were interesting anyone.

For a civil matter, the issue of a trial is often far less complicate. It often boils down to how well you know the tricks of the game and how much money you can put on the table. This is sad, but this is true. As much as I have an once of truth for criminal court here, I am far more suspicious with civil court. It doesn't mean you can not win but you need to understand that you will certainly have to be dirty.
 
As much as I have an once of truth for criminal court here, I am far more suspicious with civil court.

Not sure what Meiliana would say about that?

Perhaps she regrets now not burning the mosque down since that seems to get you only 1-4 months in prison (cf. the punishments for the perpetrators of the burning of Buddhist temples afterwards), instead of 1,5 years for complaining about a volume level...
 
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Not sure what Meiliana would say about that?.
She may well agree with me Jstar, when talking "in general" and not on her particular case. If you read me correctly, I said "an once of truth" which is not much by any standard.

It would be pretty hypocritical from me to pretend that you can NEVER get Justice from a criminal court here. I got acquitted without having to pay any bribe (but loosing a serious amount of money since I got grounded in Indonesia during the trial while I had ongoing commercial ops in Europe), and had my innocence recognized both by the District and Supreme Court.

It would also make no sense for anyone to say that one can never trust Indonesian Justice. There are cases which disprove such assertion and am one of them among others.

Sure, we can find countless example of silly decisions but if you (general you) start with the assumption that you will NEVER get Justice, I hope for you that you will never have to face a Court. To get justice served it requires a tremendous amount of tenacity. The 10 months my case lasted has taken a huge toll on me emotionally but I always knew I will be acquitted. If one starts a fight while thinking it s a lost one, the outcome is almost certain.
 
It took me time to realize (and accept) that it is not the legal work I did at the time which won the acquittal but only the fact that I managed to appear sympathetic to the public opinion and judges. I think that even if I would have been guilty I would have won the acquittal this way because I am not under the impression that proofs and testimonies were interesting anyone.

And that’s key. Luckily you could twist around the ‘bule factor’. But I also, to be somewhat controversial, assume the judges were mainly Christian since it took place in North Sulawesi (which has a very friendly past with the white ex colonizer btw)? The moment you have both against you, race and religion, it becomes -to put it mildly- difficult. Some pigs are more equal than others.
 
But I also, to be somewhat controversial, assume the judges were mainly Christian since it took place in North Sulawesi (which has a very friendly past with the white ex colonizer btw)? The moment you have both against you, race and religion, it becomes -to put it mildly- difficult. Some pigs are more equal than others.
No, it is incorrect. Only one out of the three judges was a Christian, manadonese born. He was "in charge" to translate to the two others the most mysterious part of the manadonese language.

One of the two muslim judges was a javanese while the Ketua was from Sumatra.

It was quite funny because the Javanese was really at loss with the language, being newly arrived. I was very cautious not to put her in an ankward situation where she would have been the only one not getting a joke.

The ketua was comfortable with the way we speak here, having been in his position for a couple of years at least.

Funnily again, the harshest of the three or at least the less convivial with me was the Christian one. It however totally changed after. I still meet him from time to time in the City and he always seem happy to see me.
 

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