Digital Nomads (sick of them)

[centurion]

So to clarify, my question to Manpower was:
I want to work for an offshore company, that company has no activities in Indonesia and I deliver the work online (by email) and I will receive money in Indonesia. I have a spouse KITAP. Am I allowed to do this?
The answer was: It is not our concern as work permits are needed for workers that work in Indonesia for Indonesian companies. Your employment for an offshore company will be governed by the law of your offshore employer. This was 2 years ago.

 

[jstar]

^ Still, if you continue that line of thinking; according to the people answering your inquiries it would be possible for a foreign company to hire a building, put employees in there (even hire locals, who knows?) and have a physical presence in the country?! Talking about a blinkered view...(not you @centurion )

 

[dafluff]

So to clarify, my question to Manpower was:
I want to work for an offshore company, that company has no activities in Indonesia and I deliver the work online (by email) and I will receive money in Indonesia. I have a spouse KITAP. Am I allowed to do this?
The answer was: It is not our concern as work permits are needed for workers that work in Indonesia for Indonesian companies. Your employment for an offshore company will be governed by the law of your offshore employer. This was 2 years ago.

This is actually a consistent answer. An IMTA is after all not really a work permit. It is a permit for an Indonesian company to employ a foreign worker.

 

[Chiron]

So let's have a small case study here... I present the following exhibit of YouTubing about the cheapness of a Bali Villa by this digital nomad and his girlfriend. Alas, they have previously announced to the world on their respective channels they've "moved" to Bali.

This "cheap" villa in Canggu, he's hinted to be somewhere between US$1500-$2000 per month - we'll just call that Rp300jt/year. If you go to the YouTube money estimator (www.socialblade.com), you can roughly estimate that he (Lost LeBlanc) is making about US$6000 per month average, and his girlfriend (whatthechic) about US$10,000 (averaging between the high and low amounts listed on that site). Together they're easily pulling in about US$250,000 per year, although this may be actually on the low side. So I run that number through my handy Excel formulas that calculate Indonesian tax based on the 2018 exemptions, with the assumption their native countries (I believe Canada and Peru respectively) have standard tax treaties with Indonesia. If they stay in that Canggu villa for more than 183 days in the past year, they should be on the hook for about Rp960jt payable to their local Kantor Pajak coming up pretty quick. However, I'm sure they're not aware of this, and will somehow never pay anything.

Now one thing they can (and probably unwittingly) do is keep bouncing in and out of Indonesia on tourist visas, and somehow stay off the radar of Mr. Pajak.

 

[R Cameron]

Now one thing they can (and probably unwittingly) do is keep bouncing in and out of Indonesia on tourist visas, and somehow stay off the radar of Mr. Pajak.

It's definitely a different matter if they are staying 183+ days. If they were doing exactly the same and staying 182 days (then 182 days in Thailand, 1 day in Malaysia, no taxes anywhere!) I would see no problem with it. They are putting plenty of money into the local economy with their expensive lifestyle, and won't be getting any residency benefits, they really are living as extended tourists.

I think Indonesia could easily accommodate these types by simply adapting the retirement visa to not have a minimum age and give a few lines clarifying what kind of offshore work is permitted.

 

[centurion]

Five Flag Theory for enjoying life without taxation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_traveler

 

[kiperto]

And let's be honest yeh it's a pain but it's not that hard or expensive to set up your own PT and get kitas etc and be legal

If all these digital startups succeed then of course they will need staff, office, etc

But they never do. They just trade bitcoin or do blogs or something and moan non stop

Anyway maybe I just had a bad day but I just had an online discussion on a FB forum about this and it raised my hackles.

Not hard? It's EXTREMELY difficult to set up a PT (PMA) and get the required visas even with the new changes instituted last year.

 

[snpark]

Not hard? It's EXTREMELY difficult to set up a PT (PMA) and get the required visas even with the new changes instituted last year.

Pt and pma is 2 separate things afaik
Pma is the one foreigner owned and need $1m capital

Pt is 51% Indo 49% foreigner and is a lot easier and cheaper

Clearly one of us is confused
And I'm a director of my own PT . And it's NOT a pma

 

[snpark]

There are even agents who can and will legally find a company to sponsor you and make you a director of their PT and you just pay them a sponsor fee and the kitas costs every year

Probably even some threads here about it

 

[centurion]

There are even agents who can and will legally find a company to sponsor you and make you a director of their PT and you just pay them a sponsor fee and the kitas costs every year

Probably even some threads here about it

https://emerhub.com/bali/get-kitas-using-employer-of-record-service-in-bali/

Around 8.000 USD/year, I think.

 

[snpark]

There you go, and remember emerhub is one of those super expensive westerner style agents / companies who charge a huge premium for the same thing a local agent can do for a fraction of the price

These are the sort of people who can "find" you an apartment for $3000 a month that actually only costs $1500 a month

Back to PT and sponsors, some agents only charge 10jt a year. You can even do the whole thing for less than 65jt a year inc the IMTA, KITAS, NPWP inc paying your own tax not just the manpower $1200

You just need to do your research
Ironically having a kitas etc is not much more than the cost of flying in and out several times a year if you also include the taxi, the voa fee, etc etc

eg. taxi to airport 150+. taxi back 200. voa 500. flight 2jt now times that by 6 or 12 or add the visa extensions and the cost of 12 coffees in changi etc etc
Anyway some people just like to live on the edge and then when they get caught they complain.
Me, I am happy to live here legally officially, pay some tax, get NPWP, BPJS, credit card, proper bank account, ID, driving licence etc etc
But that's just my opinion

 

[kiperto]

Pt and pma is 2 separate things afaik
Pma is the one foreigner owned and need $1m capital

Pt is 51% Indo 49% foreigner and is a lot easier and cheaper

Clearly one of us is confused
And I'm a director of my own PT . And it's NOT a pma

Not confused at all. Your initial ire, and the whole subject of this thread, is toward digital nomads who are by definition, expats. The automatic assumption would be that an expatriate would desire to set up a company designed for foreign capital. As far as they are concerned more power to them for finding ways to live cheap and comfortable while pouring into local economies. Although there are tons of drawbacks to that lifestyle, good for those that find a way to make it work.

This part I could be wrong on, but I thought any amount of foreign capital automatically makes a company a PMA, not just a minority amount.

 

[Balifrog]

Saw a documentary yesterday from ARTE (French/German channel) on the digital nomads subject. Interesting, sure not my choice, but a few seem to make a decent living of it.
Of course there was one in Bali amongst them...

 

[snpark]

This part I could be wrong on, but I thought any amount of foreign capital automatically makes a company a PMA, not just a minority amount.

No, you are wrong.
And not many people choose to set up a PMA, that is "usually" for an existing foreign company wanting to open here, very rarely would a private individual want to set up a PMA and have $1million USD capital

99% of the time, people would set up a PT with a local partner / sponsor which costs only a few thousand dollars and with the right notary etc you can be protected also. You don't need any capital for a Pt apart from what it costs obviously

 

[rabbit_39]

Kiperto us correct a PT PMA and a PT are both PT (perseroan terbatas) .If you have any amount of foreign ownership then it is a PT PMA, no longer a PT (only) .

I believe this is set up in the Law 40/2009

 

[snpark]

Ok let me clarify and correct a point
Sorry

You can be a director of a Pt without any capital

You can do a separate notary letter later between yourself and the local owner about who is responsible for what

But it is simple and easy and pretty cheap to be a director of a locally owned Pt company and get a kitas imta npwp bjps etc etc for one of those digital nomads and pay as little as 10jt sponsor fee to the company who "employ" you

 

[dafluff]

Pt and pma is 2 separate things afaik
Pma is the one foreigner owned and need $1m capital

Pt is 51% Indo 49% foreigner and is a lot easier and cheaper

Clearly one of us is confused
And I'm a director of my own PT . And it's NOT a pma

This is incorrect. A PT that has any amount of foreign ownership needs to be a PT PMA. Please refer to UU No 25, 2007 Tentang Penanaman Modal.

Article 1.3: Penanaman modal asing adalah kegiatan menanam modal untuk melakukan usaha di wilayah negara Republik Indonesia yang dilakukan oleh penanam modal asing, baik yang menggunakan modal asing sepenuhnya maupun yang berpatungan dengan penanam modal dalam negeri.

Foreign investment (Penanaman Modal Asing - PMA) is investing activity within Indonesia conducted by foreign investor, whether using foreign investment wholly, or with a domestic investor.

Article 1.6: Penanam modal asing adalah perseorangan warga negara asing, badan usaha asing, dan/atau pemerintah asing yang melakukan penanaman modal di wilayah negara Republik Indonesia.

Foreign investors include foreign individuals, foreign corporation, and/or foreign government who invest within Indonesia.

Article 5.2: Penanaman modal asing wajib dalam bentuk perseroan terbatas berdasarkan hukum Indonesia dan berkedudukan di dalam wilayah negara Republik Indonesia, kecuali ditentukan lain oleh undang-undang.

Foreign capital investment must be in PT form.

Conclusion: If you are a foreigner, and you invest capital in Indonesia, you're doing it via PT PMA. Note there is no percentage ownership that negates this rule.

Now some enterprising lawyers and notaries have of course used the "nominee" agreements, where you register a local as the "owner" to get around this rule. Even properly set-up PT PMAs may have this to get around the percentage limitation on the DNI (Negative Investment List, which may limit the percentage amount of foreign ownership in a particular business sector). Of course these are all illegal:

Article 33.1 and 33.2: Penanam modal dalam negeri dan penanam modal asing yang melakukan penanaman modal dalam bentuk perseroan terbatas dilarang membuat perjanjian dan/atau pernyataan yang menegaskan bahwa kepemilikan saham dalam perseroan terbatas untuk dan atas nama orang lain.
Dalam hal penanam modal dalam negeri dan penanam modal asing membuat perjanjian dan/atau pernyataan sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (1), perjanjian dan/atau pernyataan itu dinyatakan batal demi hukum.

Local and foreign investors investing in a PT are forbidden to enter agreements which state share ownership within the PT as belonging to someone else. In case of local and foreign investors making such agreement, the agreement is deemed void.

Edit to add: From a legal standpoint there is no difference between PT and PT PMA. They are both equal legal entities within Indonesia. However, having foreign ownership means that the whole PMA process needs to be done.

 

[R Cameron]

You can be a director of a Pt without any capital

That's an interesting approach. And there's new regulations in the past year making it so that directors with some ownership are under a new visa specifically for that situation (313) and directors without ownership are still on 312. I don't recall exactly what I read and where, but it seemed to me that the change makes it so that now 312 directors (non-owners) must prove expertise and/or experience in the field. If that's the case, it could be a deliberate attempt to close the loophole you describe.

 

[kiperto]

That's an interesting approach. And there's new regulations in the past year making it so that directors with some ownership are under a new visa specifically for that situation (313) and directors without ownership are still on 312.

A PT, or PT PMA for that matter, can decide to hire a director on a visa 312. For foreigners who hold a significant stake in a company and want to serve as a director there is a better route. The 313 (one year investor visa) and 314 (two year investor visa) allow a Director or Commissioner who holds at least 1 M nominal value of shares a limited stay permit. I just went through this process in setting up my PT PMA. It does not require the RPTKA/IMTA. I merely had to get a recommendation from BKPM. From switching from a 312 to a 314 I did have to leave the country though.

I think this visa has been around for a while but it was probably more difficult to obtain before the changes that took place in October of 2018.

 

[centurion]

That's an interesting approach. And there's new regulations in the past year making it so that directors with some ownership are under a new visa specifically for that situation (313) and directors without ownership are still on 312. I don't recall exactly what I read and where, but it seemed to me that the change makes it so that now 312 directors (non-owners) must prove expertise and/or experience in the field. If that's the case, it could be a deliberate attempt to close the loophole you describe.

There is no education or expertize criteria for directors or commissioners.