Cryptocurrencies

[Bad_azz]

Davita- I have to disagree with you in this
a 1$ bill has no intrinsic value, if what you say is correct.
Money as you all know it historically will become obsolete. It is the natural order of things.
I don't say Bitcoin itself will be the thing in the future- no-one knows. I guess as a lame comparison we look at betamax recorders- & then along came VHS.
However BTC is the one that people have heard of and is the major market cap in this industry.
There is around half a trillion USD market cap in the CC industry- are you saying that is not intrinsic value?
It is a sought after "commodity".
As with anything it is all about perception of value. Technolgy advances, things get left behind.
To be fair in many parts of the world cash has pretty much been left behind. Some people rarely handle cash they just move numbers about digitally online.
So, tell me - how are cryptocurrencies not a natural progression from that in an increasingly technology-driven world?

 

[R Cameron]

RE: cryptocurrency has no intrinsic value so....for every winner there has to be a consequent loser. It isn't a win-win investment.

The US Dollar has no intrinsic value either. Simply some amount of trust in the issuing and regulating authority. Same with cryptocurrencies.

I am not prepared to agree or disagree, but can you explain why you assert it is a zero-sum game (for every winner there must be a loser)?

If Bitcoin (or a different cryptocurrency) "wins" and becomes the de-facto international currency, the USD would be the loser, and perhaps all traditional currencies to a lesser degree.

 

[Bad_azz]

See- the big boys wanna play with our toys now

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-to-be-building-a-cryptocurrency-trading-desk

 

[Davita]

Davita- I have to disagree with you in this
a 1$ bill has no intrinsic value, if what you say is correct.
Money as you all know it historically will become obsolete. It is the natural order of things.
I don't say Bitcoin itself will be the thing in the future- no-one knows. I guess as a lame comparison we look at betamax recorders- & then along came VHS.
However BTC is the one that people have heard of and is the major market cap in this industry.
There is around half a trillion USD market cap in the CC industry- are you saying that is not intrinsic value?
It is a sought after "commodity".
As with anything it is all about perception of value. Technolgy advances, things get left behind.
To be fair in many parts of the world cash has pretty much been left behind. Some people rarely handle cash they just move numbers about digitally online.
So, tell me - how are cryptocurrencies not a natural progression from that in an increasingly technology-driven world?

If you wish to disgree B-A you should offer a positive argument not just show another negative.
A US$ is a 'promise to pay' from a country called United States of America which has incredible asset value.
There has been much debate about what is cryptocurrency between 'commodity' or 'currency' and most economic experts suggest it's neither. I heard one expert suggest it's a 'network' and another that it's an 'ideology'.
I agree with my red accented sentence you provided...it is perception of value and that value is still measured in fiat currency.
If and when the day happens that everyone accepts cryptocurrency for trade then you will be correct....just as barter trade thousands of years ago gave way to gold-trade, and currency-trade, but based on something tangible.
Right now Bitcoin is a gamble!

 

[steveandpenny]

RE: cryptocurrency has no intrinsic value so....for every winner there has to be a consequent loser. It isn't a win-win investment.

No currency has any intrinsic value ! It is paper or cheap metals. There is NOTHING behind it except a blind faith in the belief in it.

Have gone though this before davita ! Do you really think that if some currency crashs , someone will give you something of value for a worthless piece of paper that you had faith in . It won' happen my man. It' happened many times though out history (Germany for one) and will happen again.

So there is no real differece in intrinsic value between cryprtocurrency and your almighty dollar (or whatever currency you now down to ). Except it' not controlled by any one governent.

So drop it.

 

[steveandpenny]

Lol good luck on getting something from the USA governent if they go bankrupt. You got your head in the clouds.

 

[scouser59]

FT - Paywall.

sorry try the independenthttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...0191e45377ec&usg=AOvVaw1_JIp-tWhQ9VOiIWgcEoY2
Bitcoin, Litecoin, Ethereum, Ripple price latest: Every major ...


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...0191e45377ec&usg=AOvVaw1_JIp-tWhQ9VOiIWgcEoY2

 

[Bad_azz]

Davita:"If you wish to disgree B-A you should offer a positive argument not just show another negative."
Sez who?
I wish to disagree.

 

[Davita]

I am not prepared to agree or disagree, but can you explain why you assert it is a zero-sum game (for every winner there must be a loser)?

It's mathematics...if 10 people put 1$ in a pot and there is no investment to make the pot value grow......
1. If all take 1$ out then it's a zero-sum result.
2. If one takes 2$ out nine will get less than what they put in....i.e. one winner and nine losers.

If they all convince other people that the pot will grow and they put in 2$ then more$ on the promise it will grow....... then its a ponzi scheme.

 

[Davita]

Davita:"If you wish to disgree B-A you should offer a positive argument not just show another negative."
Sez who?
I wish to disagree.

Just realized it's Saturday....no kindergarten today!

 

[Bad_azz]

It's mathematics...if 10 people put 1$ in a pot and there is no investment to make the pot value grow......
1. If all take 1$ out then it's a zero-sum result.
2. If one takes 2$ out nine will get less than what they put in....i.e. one winner and nine losers.

If they all convince other people that the pot will grow and they put in 2$ then more$ on the promise it will grow....... then its a ponzi scheme.

If you took the time to learn about the topic Davita then you will see there is massive investment and massive scope for further investment and growth.
Do you really think that the people involved in this market are completely clueless?
Blockchain capabilities are widely acknowledged as having great benefits by the people from "your world" too (traditional establishment).
It is a vast topic and the growth of the markets reflects this. Only those who stand to lose power and their control of the economy are the ones in the "anti" sector.

It is not just Bitcoin out there.

 

[Davita]

No currency has any intrinsic value ! It is paper or cheap metals. There is NOTHING behind it except a blind faith in the belief in it.

Have gone though this before davita ! Do you really think that if some currency crashs , someone will give you something of value for a worthless piece of paper that you had faith in . It won' happen my man. It' happened many times though out history (Germany for one) and will happen again.

So there is no real differece in intrinsic value between cryprtocurrency and your almighty dollar (or whatever currency you now down to ). Except it' not controlled by any one governent.

So drop it.

I'll agree that currencies aren't perfect for a trade to be ensured but, in the absence of anything else, it has stood the test of time so far. There have been many currencies that are no longer in circulation but there's always been a reason. Here is a history of the German currency collapse which is very complex....
http://therealasset.co.uk/history-germany-gold-currency/

The value of a countries coinage is measured by different monetary agencies like Fitch, Moody's etc. and is market-traded within a small spread.
If cryptocurrency is used today how can anyone trade when it is so volatile.

 

[Bad_azz]

The fact that so many people are trading across different markets/ exchanges that do not share a common denominator is why the market is volatile- it is not centralised or regulated.
In general it is volatile BUT is growing, no one can deny that- even with around 30% drop across the board yesterday it is still in growth mode, the 30% drop only set it back by a week or so.
& this is why people are investing , because the trend is still: growth.
Anyone who bought into BTC at $20,000 might have been crying yesterday- but they would be foolish to do so, as they either invested more than the could afford with the expectation of a crazy ROI in a matter of days - in your words : gambling
Or they were investing other people's money with a promise to pay back in a week.
Those who bought in with a bit of spare cash should really just sit back & watch & wait.
This market isn't even 10 years old yet.

 

[Bad_azz]

Sorry- to clarify- If I lived in Mrs Baddiland & wanted to buy some crypto then I would have to find someone who wants to sell their CCs to me in my fiat currency. Mrs Baddieland's currency is not widely adopted globally but there might be someone who will buy it in exchange for their BTC, BUT Mrsbaddie has to take the price on offer as her options are limited.

 

[Davita]

If you took the time to learn about the topic Davita then you will see there is massive investment and massive scope for further investment and growth.
Do you really think that the people involved in this market are completely clueless?
Blockchain capabilities are widely acknowledged as having great benefits by the people from "your world" too (traditional establishment).
It is a vast topic and the growth of the markets reflects this. Only those who stand to lose power and their control of the economy are the ones in the "anti" sector.

It is not just Bitcoin out there.

Thank you B_A . I'm familiar with the topic of blockchain technology and have posted about how buildings in Dubai and other infrastructures are using blockchain.
You started this thread by advocating that Bitcoins were useful to do free exchange between currencies....but that recommendation seems to have dissipated.
The focus of the thread now appears to be what a great investment cryptocurrency is. My point is that it is a very risky investment and more related to a gamble or investing in a ponzi scheme.
I never advocated that some will make not money.... I said there is no intrinsic value in the product consequently the only way its value can grow is when others buy into the club at a higher price than the original members.

BTW your admonish that it's 'my world' makes no sense...I'm as interested in technology as anyone else but we live in 'this world'. It is 'this world's' money that is purchasing cryptocurrency and it is in 'this world' we buy bread and shoes.
When advanced currency is trade-able then there will be other things to worry about...i.e. what else may be in the pipeline to replace that.

 

[Bad_azz]

I started this thread:
"I am educating myself in these matters & I find it all very interesting and fun.
I decided the best way to learn was to buy in & then play around with it.

Anyone else using Bitcoin/ Alt coins?..."
I don't see it as advocating anything. In fact quite the opposite, I have suggested caution more than once.

I am off back to RL now, so I won't be picking up on any more taunts or whatever they are purported to be today Davita.

 

[steveandpenny]

You win davita...trying to follow your logic is much harder than trying to understand what paperwork I need for my ktap lol. I give up.

 

[Davita]

I started this thread:
"I am educating myself in these matters & I find it all very interesting and fun.
I decided the best way to learn was to buy in & then play around with it.

Anyone else using Bitcoin/ Alt coins?..."
I don't see it as advocating anything. In fact quite the opposite, I have suggested caution more than once.

I am off back to RL now, so I won't be picking up on any more taunts or whatever they are purported to be today Davita.

I think you forgot your last sentence in your above post which said....
"I like the idea of having a stash of digital currency that can be sent globally in a matter of seconds without having to wait for bank opening times etc. or paying the silly banking fees."

and post #21
"if you transferred via bitcoin it would be done the same day most likely in seconds/minutes - assuming you have the wallet & so on already set up.
Hard to give figures as the markets are constantly changing.
1000GBP is about 17209804.75IDR via Bitcoin just now- minus the fees."

 

[Davita]

You win davita...trying to follow your logic is much harder than trying to understand what paperwork I need for my ktap lol. I give up.

If needed I can help you with paperwork for a Kitap but, If you are are applying for a retirement Kitap, then your agent should do that work...that's why you pay him/her the big bucks.

 

[harryopal1]

The Zimbabwe $ used to be valued at about 6 to $1 US. After land seizures without compensation the trust in the Zimbabwean economy dissipated. Suddenly there was a drying up of investment capital, inflation went through the roof and the Zim treasury responded by printing more and more notes and then larger notes until there were notes with a face value of $100 trillion dollars. One of those notes in Zimbabwe might not have paid for the bus fare home.

I used to buy Zim notes which I sold as novelty items for $6 Aus with the slogan, "Make your friends instant millionaires." While back in Zimbabwe they were seen as worthless I found they began to cost me too much to buy. I just checked EBat and 100 trillion dollar notes are being offered for $193 Au each.

LIke most things an item is worth a theoretical value but you have to have a customer. Take opal. I cut, polished and sold Australian opals. As I had a small business in a relatively small Australian city I found that I had to offer opals at about half the price for which you might have bought the same stone in Sydney or Melbourne. I have seen a single chunk of irregularly shaped but polished opal that you could hold in one hand with an asking price of $125,000 and a palm sized boulder opal with fabulous colour with an asking price of $1.2 million. Were they worth that? They were if someone bought it. But how long can those prices be seen as the "value" if there are no buyers.

Diamond rings are marketed as a supposed investment. If you walk into a shop and buy a diamond for $100,000 the value as you walk out might be $60,000... If you can find a buyer. Diamonds are priced on the basis of their so called rarity. But there are mountains of diamonds which are carefully controlled to maintain a totally artificial "rare" value. The De Beers group has maintained its dominant position and world prices in a manner that in any other country and any other commodity would be seen as criminal collusion.

So, the "value" of Bitcoins is presently determined by demand with minute by minute fluctuations. Yes, crypto currencies might collapse but it seems at the moment that there is a small percentage of people trading against potentially the millions who may yet be temped into the market place. I tend to agree with both Davita and Ms BA. The Bitcoin is not measured against some intrinsic value but I think they will continue to be a worthwhile "investment" until all the potential buyers have been soaked up. As Ms BA constantly reminds us and the web sites also, cryptocurrencies are volatile. Sleep with just one eye shut and the other on the fluctuating market prices.

But then, as I have remarked before... I know nothing.