Back as an upper-middle income country, but will Indonesia be trapped there?

[Samoerai]

Only Brenda in 1403

HBO, Brenda The Flight Attendant

 

[Bob]

Currently about 15. And all of them are on full loudspeaker in the middle of the night, when normal people try to sleep.
Until this country removes these backward practices it will never ever develop, and probably won't even maintain its position in the middle income countries.

Middle of the night or early morning?

 

[Bob]

Are you serious or just trolling? I spent two years of my life being physically tortured by a mosque with loudspeakers at 110 decibels (yes I measured it) from 3.30am to 4.30am every single morning. Take your bigotry elsewhere.

How is what he wrote bigotry?

 

[Bob]

I think Samoerai's number 10 on the list to help Indonesia get out of the middle-income trap has something to do with more productivity and better concentration after a good night's sleep. I'd prefer that the mosque speakers be used only for the adzan, but I am unsure if this will significantly increase GDP.
With all respect to Samoerai, I think some other items on his list will cause more harm than good. Allow me to elaborate.
1. Dua anak cukup.
I think this is not something the government should interfere with, it's a couple's choice to have no children, 1 or many. Besides that, capping at 2 kids max with a 15% infertility rate of couples, the population will shrink. And that will hurt the economy. A lot. With less consumption companies' stock market value will go down, aging population with no one to pay pensions and take care of the elderly. Japan, and Korea are already experiencing it. Some Western European countries escape this by net migration, but this has its pitfalls.
Rather, a growing population is good for the economy, and labor could become an export product of Indonesia to countries that are in dire need of workers (see the thread on nurses needed abroad)
6. Improved infrastructure is vital, but as we can see happening right now some of these investments are made with huge loans from foreign countries (China). This will make Indonesia vulnerable to their growing influence.
8. Banning fossil fuels in a poor country like Indonesia will lead to a complete economic standstill. Forbidding the affordable means of transportation while subsidizing the more expensive EV's will cause great inequality and division between rich and poor.
9. A social security system...will this create a better economy? Higher taxes that's for sure. Wages will have to go up to compete, and more inflation?

With number 2 I agree very much, education needs to be affordable and of good quality. It's a very important key to progress and development.

Keeping population growth to a modest level or flat shouldn't adversely affect the economy and would help lower pollution and resource usage in the long term.
I agree with your other points.

 

[Lemonyellow]

Well, it seems everyone else has better understanding about the loudspeakers. I remember when I was in college, the mosque in that area was just on the other side of the road, and i never took prayer including Friday prayer. And yes they had loudspeaker too. It just the way it is. You'd go around the area in the daytime and ask do you hear the prayer call, most of them would say no I don't know. Not because the loudspeaker wasn't loud enough, but people somehow managed to ignore that. And about the middle of the night, now i wish i could wake up at that time. What you guys are experiencing isn't pleasant but might work for me as i want to take prayer in time. And i have never been to Java, my wife was just telling me how the mosques are really loud in those areas and have longer session of supplication after the main prayer. we live in Riau, and as I mentioned in my earlier comment here it's not that loud/longer. Again probably it has something to do with my sleep.

 

[flavus]

And i have never been to Java, my wife was just telling me how the mosques are really loud in those areas and have longer session of supplication after the main prayer

That could be it then - we all have been arguing assuming we are experiencing the same reality but it's really not.

Though as this is an expat forum I think it's a reasonable expectation that we're talking about places like Jakarta, so maybe mention upfront if you are somewhere far from it

 

[Pak Tani]

How is what he wrote bigotry?

Maybe bigotry is just a word he has wanted to use for some time.

I took my chance earlier today.

 

[Lemonyellow]

That could be it then - we all have been arguing assuming we are experiencing the same reality but it's really not.

Though as this is an expat forum I think it's a reasonable expectation that we're talking about places like Jakarta, so maybe mention upfront if you are somewhere far from it

Yeah my bad. I will guess people are more religious in that part of the country. But still I don't get how the loudspeakers aren't letting Indonesia cross the upper middle income class or even keeping it for that matter. Again my bad, probably things are more complex in that part of the country.

 

[pantaiema]

It seems now the thread has developed to "azan" (adhan/athan) the loudspeaker sound from the mosque.

I share the same opinion that "azan" is obsolete in the era of smartphones, smart TVs, digital radios where almost everyone in the city has a smartphone or TV at home. In the villages radios, CRT TVs or even alarm clock are now affordable to almost everyone. You could even get it for free as people just throw it away.

I wonder if there is stated in the holy Qur'an that azan will need to be played five times a day at which minimum level of sound pressure level (SPL) at which frequency ??. If such specifications do not exist it might do with a reduced SPL taking into consideration that almost every person has personal devices that help them to hear the sound of azan.

In order to survive things will need to evolve, gradually change to adapt to environment. Otherwise they will extinct due to the natural selection. This is based on Charles Darwin's theory of evolution that has stood the test of time and validated by an overwhelming amount of scientific evidence in various fields.

If people get a constant exposure to a sound pressure level (SPL) of 110dB(A), at a certain point those who live nearby these noise source will suffer a hearing loss problem. Just for comparison, 110 dB(A) is the same level with you hear a rock band playing in indoor concert. The sound pressure level of a fire alarm sounder to wake up people in the event of fire in the bedroom of a hotel, accommodation or other place where the people are sleeping is typically set at above 75dB(A) at the bedhead. Keep in mind that dB(A) is not the only scale to measure the sound pressure level, there is also dB(B), dB(C), dB(Z). Which scale is the best, it will depend on the spectrums of their frequencies.

This is just other comparisons how the noise of 110dB(A) will be perceived by human ears.

The WHO guidelines for community noise recommend less than 30dB(A) in the bedrooms during the night for a good and quality night sleep

Noise

www.who.int

 

[Nimbus]

Well, it seems everyone else has better understanding about the loudspeakers. I remember when I was in college, the mosque in that area was just on the other side of the road, and i never took prayer including Friday prayer. And yes they had loudspeaker too. It just the way it is. You'd go around the area in the daytime and ask do you hear the prayer call, most of them would say no I don't know. Not because the loudspeaker wasn't loud enough, but people somehow managed to ignore that. And about the middle of the night, now i wish i could wake up at that time. What you guys are experiencing isn't pleasant but might work for me as i want to take prayer in time. And i have never been to Java, my wife was just telling me how the mosques are really loud in those areas and have longer session of supplication after the main prayer. we live in Riau, and as I mentioned in my earlier comment here it's not that loud/longer. Again probably it has something to do with my sleep.

The entire Riau has about 6.4 million people with 74 people per sqkm, while Jakarta proper has 10.5 million with 14K people per sqkm. There are more than 3000 mosques, or 4.5 mosques per sqkm. This means anywhere in Jakarta you can hear at least 4-5 mosques calling to prayer, and they make no effort to synchronize it. I actually think each of them tries to stand out by not calling at the exact same second.

 

[Hawk256]

It seems now the thread has developed to "azan" (adhan/athan) the loudspeaker sound from the mosque.

I share the same opinion that "azan" is obsolete in the era of smartphones, smart TVs, digital radios where almost everyone in the city has a smartphone or TV at home. In the villages radios, CRT TVs or even alarm clock are now affordable to almost everyone. You could even get it for free as people just throw it away.

I wonder if there is stated in the holy koran that azan will need to be played five times a day at which minimum level of sound pressure level (SPL) at which frequency ??. If such specifications do not exist it might do with a reduced SPL taking into consideration that almost every person has personal devices that help them to hear the sound of azan.

In order to survive things will need to evolve, gradually change to adapt to environment. Otherwise they will extinct due to the natural selection. This is based on Charles Darwin's theory of evolution that has stood the test of time and validated by an overwhelming amount of scientific evidence in various fields.

If people get a constant exposure to a sound pressure level (SPL) of 110dB(A), at a certain point those who live nearby these noise source will suffer a hearing problem. Just for comparison, 110 dB(A) is the same level with you hear a rock band playing in indoor concert. The sound pressure level of a fire alarm sounder to wake up people in the event of fire in the bedroom of a hotel, accommodation or other place where the people are sleeping is typically set at above 75dB(A) at the bedhead. Keep in mind that dB(A) is not the only scale to measure the sound pressure level, there is also dB(B), dB(C), dB(Z). Which scale is the best, it will depend on the spectrums of their frequencies.

This is just other comparisons how the noise of 110dB(A) will be perceived by human ears.

View attachment 3266

The WHO guidelines for community noise recommend less than 30dB(A) in the bedrooms during the night for a good and quality night sleep

Noise

www.who.int

That was the point of my post. Nobody is getting that kind of sound pressure level from any distance with the equipment that Mosques have installed. What they may be experiencing has to be way lower than 110 db (and not by a little). It's not opinon at that point, it's science. As far as being "too" loud we get back to opinion. I can speak from personal experience but I can't speak for someone else's opinion. I have heard the speakers but I have never been woke up or suffered any undue stress from them. You don't live next to the airport or train tracks and complain about the noise. It is well known that there are Mosques in Indonesia, especially Jakarta.

 

[Lemonyellow]

I wonder if there is stated in the holy koran that azan will need to be played five times a day at which minimum level of sound pressure level (SPL) at which frequency ??. If such specifications do not exist it might do with a reduced SPL taking into consideration that almost every person has personal devices that help them to hear the sound of azan.

I think there isn't any information about that in the Qur'an, because speakers and microphones are very recent for mosques purpose to my knowledge. i can easily remember like 20 years ago where i grew up mosques didn't have speakers. Most of the mosques had only public megaphone type speakers just for the azan, there were no microphone for the Imam and nothing for the continuous recital from the Qur'an. Even till now mosques don't use loudspeakers for the prayer, except for Friday or during Ramadhan and when it's Eid prayer. But maybe Indonesia is different. It looked odd to me when i first came here and went to the mosque for prayer. But again but it's just me who can't get up in the morning regardless of the sound from the loudspeakers.

 

[Pak Tani]

I share the same opinion that "azan" is obsolete in the era of smartphones, smart TVs, digital radios where almost everyone in the city has a smartphone or TV at home. In the villages radios, CRT TVs or even alarm clock are now affordable to almost everyone.

The time of prayer depends on the position of the sun, for instance before it comes up, after it has gone down etc. So if you say that in an era of smartphones and alarm clocks we don't need the adzan anymore...well, people have always been able to find out when it's time for their prayer because the position of the sun showed them. Still, they were commanded to perform the adzan 5 times a day.
Truth is, the adzan is a part of the religion and it is obligatory that it is performed. It is a part of the traditions (mentioned and commanded in several hadieths).

Volume etc. depends on the area and situation and the local authorities should oversee that.

In order to survive things will need to evolve,
gradually change to adapt to environment. Otherwise they will extinct due to the natural selection. This is based on Charles Darwin's theory of evolution...

Actually, Darwin spoke about organisms rather than things that need to evolve; adapt themselves to the changing environment to increase their chances on survival.
In the current context Herbert would be the organism and according to the theory he should adapt himself to the 15 mosques around him to stand a better chance of surviving.
Following this theory, one could argue that him joining the imam in prayers would be the best adaptation for his situation.

 

[Bob]

It seems now the thread has developed to "azan" (adhan/athan) the loudspeaker sound from the mosque.

I share the same opinion that "azan" is obsolete in the era of smartphones, smart TVs, digital radios where almost everyone in the city has a smartphone or TV at home. In the villages radios, CRT TVs or even alarm clock are now affordable to almost everyone. You could even get it for free as people just throw it away.

I wonder if there is stated in the holy koran that azan will need to be played five times a day at which minimum level of sound pressure level (SPL) at which frequency ??. If such specifications do not exist it might do with a reduced SPL taking into consideration that almost every person has personal devices that help them to hear the sound of azan.

In order to survive things will need to evolve, gradually change to adapt to environment. Otherwise they will extinct due to the natural selection. This is based on Charles Darwin's theory of evolution that has stood the test of time and validated by an overwhelming amount of scientific evidence in various fields.

If people get a constant exposure to a sound pressure level (SPL) of 110dB(A), at a certain point those who live nearby these noise source will suffer a hearing problem. Just for comparison, 110 dB(A) is the same level with you hear a rock band playing in indoor concert. The sound pressure level of a fire alarm sounder to wake up people in the event of fire in the bedroom of a hotel, accommodation or other place where the people are sleeping is typically set at above 75dB(A) at the bedhead. Keep in mind that dB(A) is not the only scale to measure the sound pressure level, there is also dB(B), dB(C), dB(Z). Which scale is the best, it will depend on the spectrums of their frequencies.

This is just other comparisons how the noise of 110dB(A) will be perceived by human ears.

View attachment 3266

The WHO guidelines for community noise recommend less than 30dB(A) in the bedrooms during the night for a good and quality night sleep

Noise

www.who.int

If we want to analyse something we need good data to get good results. It’s already been clarified that the noise level from the loudspeakers is not at or near 110 db. So talking about the effects of exposure to 110 db in this instance serves no useful purpose.
Yes the noise from mosque loudspeakers is loud and pervasive in many areas and goes against many’s sleep schedules. What’s the solution? Maybe db limits on noise sources like places of worship, stadiums, exercise programs, rallies, motorbikes, etc. But that would be delicate to implement.
Indonesia’s a noisy place. I’ve been kept up by church services until the wee hours, been rousted far too early for senam, blasted by announcements from nearby schools, stadiums, advertisers, etc. and subjected to poorly tuned motorbike noise 24/7/365. The noise issue is far from limited to mosques.

 

[Hawk256]

Actually, Darwin spoke about organisms rather than things that need to evolve; adapt themselves to the changing environment to increase their chances on survival.
In the current context Herbert would be the organism and according to the theory he should adapt himself to the 15 mosques around him to stand a better chance of surviving.

That is a good point but it seems that most people want everyone else to confrom to them instead of the other way around. Hence the big political divide in the US now. Doesn't matter if you are in a minority, the majority should conform to your standards.

 

[flavus]

Russia ends grain deal with Ukraine. Oeps!
The deal allowed millions of tons of Ukrainian grain to enter the world market. Russia has declared the deal to be over, with possible consequences for food prices worldwide.

The price of Indomie wil definitely go up .. stock up your Indomie now.

Good news on the short term on that front: wheat prices are stable. Apparently other exporters have good harvests this year

https://archive.is/n3H08

 

[Bob]

Start with ..
1. Dua anak cukup
2. Free and good education
3. Don't say "kerja untuk Indonesia". But "kerja bagus untuk Indonesia". Only be proud of good quality results.
4. Less corruption
5. As a country, be good in one thing and trade that.
6. Improve infrastructure
7. Step up to implement green energy resources (solar pannels, wind energy, hydrogen, etc).
8. Ban carbon based fuel cars and motors. Support electric based cars and motors
9. Implement social security system.
10. Let the mosques stop making noise in the middle of the night.

Would be my top 10.

#4 affects so many things, importantly education, competence, and productivity. It's nice to be able to buy what we don't want to earn but the country suffers for it.
#5 - far more than just one thing. Indonesia's a big place. But yes prioritize competitive advantages and use the profits to develop in other areas, as was the plan since at least the 70's.
#7 - when environmentally practical and economical. There's no point going 'green' when the land is strip mined and the seas polluted to achieve it.
#8 - Nope. Maybe push EV usage in urban areas when electric generation is low / no emission. ICE's will be necessary outside the cities for a long long time.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

In the current context Herbert would be the organism and according to the theory he should adapt himself to the 15 mosques around him to stand a better chance of surviving.
Following this theory, one could argue that him joining the imam in prayers would be the best adaptation for his situation.

I have a slightly different approach, which is to invest in loudspeakers myself, and then to play Highway to Hell by AC/DC at the exact same time as they start screaming. AC/DC wins every time.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Following this theory, one could argue that him joining the imam in prayers would be the best adaptation for his situation.

My prayer is that mosque loudspeakers are banned for ever, and the number of mosques and mushollas are reduced by around 80% so that they don't disturb the masyarakat so much, leading to a more peaceful society. Let's see if there really is a God so that he can make it come true. I'm not holding my breath ...

 

[Bob]

I have a slightly different approach, which is to invest in loudspeakers myself, and then to play Highway to Hell by AC/DC at the exact same time as they start screaming. AC/DC wins every time.

As long as the sound doesn't carry far, why not? If the aim is to let the congregation hear, then we may be back to natural selection.