4/11, 25/11 and 2/12 anti-Ahok demonstrations

[fastpitch17]

Dan, what basis does any Muslim have to ask for punishment for blasphemy except when it involves things like treason or a physical threat to others? I can't seem to find anything in the Quran that says anything other then take no revenge on anyone who speaks against you. I guess I'm getting confused here. Everything says, do nothing but, modern day Muslims seem to ignore the Quran and go their own way.

What about this demonstrating stuff. Isn't that against the Quran too. Here is a list of a few things I found against demonstrating. I guess people being in the harem light or something.
Free mixing between men and women,
brings about more harm than good e.g. violence (between police and protesters) and killing and harming the countries economy (shops close and tourists may leave for example)
imitating the kuffaar (as Muslims copied demonstrations from them as there is no mention of demonstrations in Islam),
bidah (innovation as the prophet nor the sahaba demonstrated),
not following the way of the salaf (the early and best generations of Muslims) who never protested,
cooperating upon sin and misguidance (Muslim calling to, supporting and join demonstration which are haram so they are all cooperating upon a sin and misguidance),

Oh, lets not forget the great FPI leaders standing on their kambing wagon calling Ahok a pig and a dog. Nice guys.
وَلَا تَسُبُّوا الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ فَيَسُبُّوا اللَّهَ عَدْوًا بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ زَيَّنَّا لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ عَمَلَهُمْ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّهِم مَّرْجِعُهُمْ فَيُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ
Sahih International
And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.
Surat Al-'An`ām - 108.
Although the translation says "And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah", which means don't swear what non-muslims worship, the Ayah is also understood as "And do not insult those who worship other than Allah", which means don't insult non-muslims themselves, in fact these two understandings are both acceptable, it's a matter of Arabic Language.

So, in conclusion, I guess we know who the Bad Muslims really are.

 

[Dan]

Did you compare the original and manipulated version of the video Dan?

I've read his original statements, they're still what would be considered "blasphemous."

It's instructive to note that part of MUI's fatwa is that he blasphemed not just the Qur'an but ulema too...

And so we see who blasphemy law is really meant to protect. Hint: it's not an all powerful God.

 

[Dan]

Dan, what basis does any Muslim have to ask for punishment for blasphemy except when it involves things like treason or a physical threat to others? I can't seem to find anything in the Quran that says anything other then take no revenge on anyone who speaks against you. I guess I'm getting confused here. Everything says, do nothing but, modern day Muslims seem to ignore the Quran and go their own way.

What about this demonstrating stuff. Isn't that against the Quran too. Here is a list of a few things I found against demonstrating. I guess people being in the harem light or something.
Free mixing between men and women,
brings about more harm than good e.g. violence (between police and protesters) and killing and harming the countries economy (shops close and tourists may leave for example)
imitating the kuffaar (as Muslims copied demonstrations from them as there is no mention of demonstrations in Islam),
bidah (innovation as the prophet nor the sahaba demonstrated),
not following the way of the salaf (the early and best generations of Muslims) who never protested,
cooperating upon sin and misguidance (Muslim calling to, supporting and join demonstration which are haram so they are all cooperating upon a sin and misguidance),

Oh, lets not forget the great FPI leaders standing on their kambing wagon calling Ahok a pig and a dog. Nice guys.
وَلَا تَسُبُّوا الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ فَيَسُبُّوا اللَّهَ عَدْوًا بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ زَيَّنَّا لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ عَمَلَهُمْ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّهِم مَّرْجِعُهُمْ فَيُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ
Sahih International
And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.
Surat Al-'An`ām - 108.
Although the translation says "And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah", which means don't swear what non-muslims worship, the Ayah is also understood as "And do not insult those who worship other than Allah", which means don't insult non-muslims themselves, in fact these two understandings are both acceptable, it's a matter of Arabic Language.

So, in conclusion, I guess we know who the Bad Muslims really are.

If only the Islam were solely based on the Qur'an, right? I actually disagree with the notion that blasphemy is not punishable by death in the Qur'an. Khidr tells Moses that he killed a disobedient, apostate and blaspheming child.

"And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared he would overburden them with transgression and disbelief."

Beyond that all four of the madhabs agreed that the penalty for blaspheming Muhammad, Allah, the Prophets, the Qur'an and so on is death. NU and MUI, as Shafi'i jurists, are no exception to this line of thinking. They derive this from the ahadith, which are filled with examples of blasphemers being put to death.

Now I doubt they will openly and public espouse this view. Only the most radical of Muslims would do that. But the foundation is there, and that is where blasphemy laws in Muslim hands lead to.

 

[mauricio]

And for all of you taking the stance that this is a matter of "interpretation," do note that your usual favorites in Nadhlatul Ulama and Muhammadiyah are oddly quiet on this matter. They are encouraging a public trial and discouraging demonstrations, but also are not willing to back Ahok and stand up and say "he did not commit blasphemy." Their hands off approach is to let the system do its work.

But I suspect even they believe he is guilty and none of them will deny what that verse from al-Maidah says.

And my suspicions appear to be correct. From the "voice of NU":

"Dikatakannya, keputusan yang dikeluarkan MUI adalah pendapat keagamaan MUI terhadap pernyataan Ahok, bukan tafsir Al-Maidah, yang setelah dikaji oleh komisi fatwa disimpulkan bahwa memang ada penghinaan terhadap Al-Qur’an atau ulama. "

"Kiai Ma’ruf yang juga rais aam PBNU juga menegaskan, tidak ada perbedaan sikap antara NU dan MUI."

http://www.nu.or.id/post/read/72426/kiai-maruf-mui-tidak-dukung-demo-terkait-ahok

This is someone from MUI speaking, mind you, but posted on NU's own mouthpiece.

The ‘atau’ (or), instead of a ‘dan’ (and), is good news for Ahok because he cannot be committing blasphemy against another person (the ulama). Ahok did not say anything against the Quran, he was commenting on the interpretation made by the ulama (a human being). So, in my opinion, blasphemy do not apply in this case. By the way, is there no ‘Save Ahok’ movement yet?

 

[R Cameron]

he was commenting on the interpretation made by the ulama (a human being). So, in my opinion, blasphemy do not apply in this case.

And if you listen 10 second longer than the "offending" quote you gain more context. He is apparently addressing an interpretation that if a Muslim votes for a Christian they will go to hell.

 

[ChrisTex]

By the way, is there no ‘Save Ahok’ movement yet?

I found four Facebook groups/pages called Save Ahok.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/927936580568813/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/saveahok/

https://www.facebook.com/SaveAhok-943434635701746/

https://www.facebook.com/BelaAhok/



Dan, quick question. Muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet right? Wouldn't His teachings on forgiveness and loving your neighbor take away the blamsmey law? I haven't read the Quran, but the Bible so I am curious how the teachings of Jesus from the Quran compare to the Bible on this subject and how it relates to Ahok.

 

[Dan]

I found four Facebook groups/pages called Save Ahok.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/927936580568813/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/saveahok/

https://www.facebook.com/SaveAhok-943434635701746/

https://www.facebook.com/BelaAhok/



Dan, quick question. Muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet right? Wouldn't His teachings on forgiveness and loving your neighbor take away the blamsmey law? I haven't read the Quran, but the Bible so I am curious how the teachings of Jesus from the Quran compare to the Bible on this subject and how it relates to Ahok.

In Islam, Jesus is a Muslim and his revelation has been tampered with and is considered hugely unreliable. He makes an appearance in the Qur'an and confirms that he's not the son of God.

Of course, I don't see much BIBLICAL evidence Jesus would be against blasphemy laws. After all, he states that he upholds the Law of Moses (Moses put to death apostates), and that not a letter of it should be changed up to the end of the world. There's the parable of the woman taken in adultery, but c'mon, it's a well-known forgery. This whole fantasy of Jesus as proto-hippie doesn't sit well with me.

WWJD? He'd probably have put blasphemers to death, which is ironic because those are precisely the halakhic grounds under which the priestly caste wanted him dead.

Oh, he also did not say "love thy neighbor." He did say to love other Jews, though. Gentiles? Well, in at least two places he told his followers not to preach to the gentiles. In another, the faith of the Canaanite woman, he refers to her as a "dog" and uses a racist, supremacist parable to get his point across. He relents and heals her daughter when she acts in a subservient manner.

Yeah, not so big on Jesus.

Oh, I also forgot that he upheld the death penalty for disobedient children. More Moses. Gotta stay consistent. See Paul for more information on how Christianity "mellowed out" and became accessible to everyone else.

 

[Terry MacArsey]

Oh, he also did not say "love thy neighbor."

Yeah, pretty sure that was Alf Garnett wasn't it ?

 

[jstar]

Perhaps you bought a bible from the Jehova's Witnesses, Dan? All the versions and languages I know, speak about neighbo(u)r. (See Leviticus and Mark.) The problem in today's English is the somewhat restricted nomenclature. But the word 'neighbor' is explained in the parable with the Samaritan after the question "so then who is my neighbor?". In Dutch for instance, the word is 'naaste'; all those others besides/around you.

And as said before, you can not just compare a Jewish theocratic society with Christianity. It is (literally) a new chapter. In the New Testament, Christians are instructed to submit to the authorities and to work within the political system. If people (also Christians!) build anti blasphemy laws in their juridicial system, that is an own interpretation and not following something that Jesus taught. (Only sins against the Holy Spirit are deemed unforgivable, but as such not judged by human laws.)

Last thing I want to say about this: Isn't every statement in one religion automatically blasphemy in another? By definition with Hindu beliefs as the most obvious example of course but even the statements and beliefs concerning Jesus and Mohammed are blasphemous according to the other religion. (False prophet? Son of God? Wow.) One more reason to go completely secular in national politics.



OT: On all Indonesian tv channels the whole thing is still the topic of the day. Yesterday Ahok gave a short interview. Tito, head of police, has impressed me with his very neutral and structured approach.Rizeq proclaimed himself 'the expert' of course and stated that the police can arrest Ahok now without any repercussions; all is investigated and said.

In the current news broadcasts they also invited some lawyers who state that Ahok should be prosecuted as well for campaigning too early and that he should have indicated which person told 'these lies'. Last but not least; it is stated non-Muslims can not discuss an Islamic text, they don't 'qualify'.

 

[Daniel50]

I read in the Jakarta Post that on friday night President Jokowi gave a speech and he was furious, " by Javanese standards", against the political forces behind fridays protests. I thought by watching his body language he seemed tired and passive. Today my wife said he was quite forceful in his speech. To me this causes me to feel a lot more relief around Ahok's situation, Jokowi's support and their belief Ahok is innocent. It does not seem like Jokowi and supporters are backing down.

Dan's distorted arguments about Christianity and his knowledge of Islam I will stay away from.

 

[nosox]

I'd like to add my name to the list of General Tito's admirers. He really does often say the right things. I just hope his actions follow along

 

[fastpitch17]

They are calling in Buni Yani for questioning.
Ahmad Dhani has been reported to the police for defamation of the President. Police have the video and I seen him on TV and there is no doubt he said some nasty things about the president.
Mrs. SBY has stated their family has no DNA to commit wrongdoings and how could anyone think otherwise after SBY has done so many good things for the nation. Oh, and she mentions that SBY had nothing to do with the PEACE RALLY on Nov 4.

 

[dafluff]

Mrs. SBY has stated their family has no DNA to commit wrongdoings and how could anyone think otherwise after SBY has done so many good things for the nation. Oh, and she mentions that SBY had nothing to do with the PEACE RALLY on Nov 4.

#lebarankuda

 

[Supir Angkot]

#lebarankuda

This.

Spoken like a true Javanese SBY would mince his words and never went straight for the jugular, he hinted in his speech that similar demo will go on and stop until lebaran kuda (his phrase for when pigs fly).


Is it a double attack to undermine Jokowi’s kuda-riding diplomacy (forging alliance with Prabowo) and also stop short of saying that he funded the demo? Otherwise how would he know for sure that similar demo will go on unless he bankrolled them in the first place.

 

[fastpitch17]

At least Jokowi stayed in town during and after the riots. SBY was notorious for heading out of the country every time something was to flair up. Then, do nothing about the criminal element. How many warnings did he give the FPI. He said they only get three warnings before disbandment so became very quiet and issued no warnings for episode 3, 4, 5, 6. during his administration. Now I guess they owe him and he can use them to do his political underhanded deeds while he sits back and plays the pure innocent one.

 

[jstar]

All about grooming Agus of course. And they must miss being in power.

 

[jstar]

.
More or less the whole family and circle of friends abroad was freaking out so I had to send them a message reassuring them that everything is allright and that we are not being lynched (yet). It seems the press does not take it lightly abroad. So bad, that family members in Australia canceled their trip (for attending a wedding). Even now.

Buni Yani, the guy who was interrogared after publishing the infamous slightly changed video, had some time to prepare his defense. And he came to the conclusion that he had not edited the video it at all. So if it was not the original, someone else must have changed it. Before, he said he had might have changed it but he could not really hear the edit because of a headset issue. Also Ahmad Dhani is giving better BS eh, explanations about his statements on Jokowi.

 

[fastpitch17]

Buni Yani stated a few days ago that he was trying to shorten the video but since he isn't to smart with these things something else must have edited that he wasn't aware of. (taking out one word) Buni Yani is supposed to be a Communications expert I have read someplace. he also has pictures on the net showing him with Aines in some sort of meetings.
Dhani will use whatever underhanded trick he can find and lie through his teeth. He has said that the videos being shown on social media and the TV are in fact fake and he will produce the real video. (right after he tries to edit it I'm sure)

Both of these guys should be charged accordingly for their deeds. At the same time perhaps now is a good time for a drive to loosen up the defamation and blasphemy laws. More democratic leaning. You know, free speech.

 

[jukung11]

Buni Yani, I read he is a lecturer for the the London School of Public Relations. Has anyone ever heard of this place before or know anything about it?

 

[jstar]

I know they have franchises, for instance in Jakarta, but I have no idea about the curriculum's quality or so.

But I read somewhere he also did a Phd program in Leiden? I don't know if he finished the program but that is very high quality (the top non-technical university in The Netherlands) and definitely not a Mickey Mouse rich kids scam as the European University or so.

So then the question is; where did it go wrong?