Hello from a soon-to-be ex from the US

[flavus]

So, the path still seems to be the same. From Indonesia.Go.ID:

a certificate from a foreign representative that with the loss of Citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia the applicant will become a foreign citizen;

Ugh, this part will be fun. Shouldn't a copy of the new country's passport or naturalization certificate be enough here?

 

[flavus]

It's not easy to lose one's Indonesian citizenship

And yet one can't legally be a citizen either after naturalization. So I guess I would be a zombie citizen for a while

 

[jstar]

Shouldn't a copy of the new country's passport or naturalization certificate be enough here?

I don’t think anybody follows this process?! And it seems what you describe is exactly what’s happening? Anyway, first they say they will ‘let you go’ if you accept another citizenship and then state you’d have to go through an elaborate approval process? What’s the use? Seeing the ex-WNI (here) it does not seem there would be nasty consequences otherwise…

 

[flavus]

I don’t think anybody follows this process?! And it seems what you describe is exactly what’s happening? Anyway, first they say they will ‘let you go’ if you accept another citizenship and then state you’d have to go through an elaborate approval process? What’s the use? Seeing the ex-WNI (here) it does not seem there would be nasty consequences otherwise…

I think I've seen at least one or two people in other threads going through this - I'll certainly at least visit the local consulate (luckily I live not far from one) and start the process, but yeah if they ask for unreasonable documents ... at least I've made a good faith attempt

I'm guessing a certificate of naturalization should work - after all, does that not affirm that the person has acquired that citizenship? But we'll see. Going to find who went through this last and ask how they got that letter.

 

[jstar]

Seeing the ex-WNI (here) it does not seem there would be nasty consequences otherwise

I might have to swallow that. I remember suddenly the issues some ex-WNI had to obtain an ITAS/P since they never got the ‘surrender confirmation letter’ from the consulate?! So if you ever plan to return to RI for a long(er) period there might be consequences if you didn’t follow the process or at least didn’t get a written confirmation.

 

[jukung11]

In the past there were a few Indonesian high ranking officials, politicians, ministers have another nationality but they do not declare it.

These are powerful people. The rules in Indonesia are not the same for them as others. Personally, I wouldn't attempt the dual passport trick. I have never seen it enforced, but I believe the law is that loss of citizenship is legally retroactive to the date a person takes citizenship of another country even if the Indonesian government hasn't processed it. Under that interpretation, if entering Indonesia on an Indonesian passport, that is fraudulent entry and the person is staying in Indonesia illegally. I would need to have substantial business and property holdings in Indonesia to take that risk. I am with flavus to just get it done to make the visa process easier later.

 

[flavus]

Found the thread, I just commented on it https://www.expatindo.org/community...an-kehilangan-kewarganegaraan.6569/post-93533

Looks like the actual portal for requesting this letter says you need a 'surat keterangan naturalisasi' which is not as onerous as the other site - but it needs to be translated. And helpfully Indonesian consulates in the US don't provide a list of authorized translators, of course.

 

[flavus]

I have never seen it enforced, but I believe the law is that loss of citizenship is legally retroactive to the date a person takes citizenship of another country even if the Indonesian government hasn't processed it

Yeah... that's my interpretation too. So far I only know of people who get found out because they either didn't route through a third country that allows visa-free access to Indonesians, or lost access because they didn't come back in time to Indonesia to do a passport renewal (pretending to still live there is so easy now with KTP seumur hidup).

But if you have business holdings... but are not powerful enough to get to bend the laws... I think that's even more reason to not naturalize overseas just to be safe.

 

[jukung11]

Airlines are motivated to turn in passengers too. They are motivated by financial penalties if they land a passenger that is denied entry. Airlines are required to share data on passengers with the country they are leaving and arriving in.

If a person flies Singapore airlines to Singapore on one passport, then flies Singapore Airlines to Indonesia on another passport, the airline will have both passports linked to that customer in its system.

Many modern airports have facial recognition tied to passengers and it automatically tracks passengers as soon as they land. Changi has this and it knows when a person uses a different passport.

But if you have business holdings... but are not powerful enough to get to bend the laws... I think that's even more reason to not naturalize overseas just to be safe.

The people I have seen in this position are often Chinese Indonesians. They have small to medium sized businesses or a couple of properties, but not enough wealth or political clout to protect them. They are terrified of civil upheaval. They want that foreign passport so they have someplace to run in case they are threatened.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Dual nationality kids have their Indonesian citizenship taken away from them automatically at age 21, unless they can prove they gave up their 2nd nationality. It would be interesting to know how this works in practice, and what would happen many years later if they want to become Indonesian again.

 

[flavus]

If a person flies Singapore airlines to Singapore on one passport, then flies Singapore Airlines to Indonesia on another passport, the airline will have both passports linked to that customer in its system.

Hmm, interesting. So in the case an ex-WNI changes their name when naturalizing, but consistently use their new passport even when visiting Indonesia, there will be nothing tying their new identity to the old one in Indonesian databases, right?

Me checking what the visa on arrival form looks like for Indonesia - wow, you can apply online now! I wonder how different it is from the EU's ESTA in practice

https://molina.imigrasi.go.id/

 

[SamR]

Dual nationality kids have their Indonesian citizenship taken away from them automatically at age 21, unless they can prove they gave up their 2nd nationality. It would be interesting to know how this works in practice, and what would happen many years later if they want to become Indonesian again.

I am curious about how such mechanics work/will work in practice.

Some time ago, I had my Australian passport extended and took the opportunity to ask the embassy if my son could apply for an Australian passport on the basis of my Australian citizenship. I was told my son needs to apply for citizenship in Australia, be approved for citizenship and be given a citizenship certificate, and only with that certificate can he apply for an Australian passport.

I’m guessing from the Indonesian POV, my son’s Australian citizenship is already assumed because I applied and obtained an affidavit. But how can he prove he gave up the Australian citizenship when from the Aussie POV, my son is only eligible for a citizenship but not officially yet unless he goes through the application process?

 

[flavus]

I am curious about how such mechanics work/will work in practice.

Some time ago, I had my Australian passport extended and took the opportunity to ask the embassy if my son could apply for an Australian passport on the basis of my Australian citizenship. I was told my son needs to apply for citizenship in Australia, be approved for citizenship and be given a citizenship certificate, and only with that certificate can he apply for an Australian passport.

I’m guessing from the Indonesian POV, my son’s Australian citizenship is already assumed because I applied and obtained an affidavit. But how can he prove he gave up with Australian citizenship when from the Aussie POV, my son is only eligible for a citizenship but not officially yet unless he goes through the application process?

Huh... interesting. So Indonesia just assumes if one parent is WNA that the kid is, even though citizenship might not be automatic?

(The US also doesn't automatically grant citizenship unless the child is born in the US or both parents are American - if only one, that parent has to have met residency requirement prior to the birth)

 

[SamR]

Huh... interesting. So Indonesia just assumes if one parent is WNA that the kid is, even though citizenship might not be automatic?

Pretty much. The affidavit, which is a document that children of WNA-WNI mixed marriages should obtain, is officially a document of registration for “children of dual nationality” and not a document of registration for “children of foreign nationals”.

 

[pantaiema]

Some time ago, I had my Australian passport extended and took the opportunity to ask the embassy if my son could apply for an Australian passport on the basis of my Australian citizenship. I was told my son needs to apply for citizenship in Australia, be approved for citizenship and be given a citizenship certificate, and only with that certificate can he apply for an Australian passport.

Could you not do it in Australian Embassy in Jakarta with a proper paper work?? I understand in other countries the parents could apply dual nationalities for their newly born baby in the foreign countries where the babies were born. Certainly, the embassies will need to process or to send the documents to Australia. But it is not the same as the need to apply in Australia or the Baby needs to be in Australia to get approved. What is the embassies for ?

I just wonder is it the typical route for children of mixed marriage with foreign citizen parents who were born in Indonesia ?? There are a few apparent problems here :
A Baby is not allowed to travel by plane until he reaches a certain age.
They will need a visa to enter Australia for the first time.
What about if the parents can't effort to pay the traveling cost. The traveling cost could be significant depending on the local standard, locations of the countries where the children were born

 

[SamR]

Could you not do it in Australian Embassy in Jakarta with a proper paper work?? I understand in other countries the parents could apply dual nationalities in the foreign countries via embassies where the babies were born. The embassies will need to process or to send the documents to Australia certainly, but it is not the same as the need to apply in Australia or the Baby needs to be in Australia to get approved. What is the embassies for ?

The way they put it to me was something along the lines of "Passport extensions and visas have been delegated to us, but citizenships are beyond our authority to process". I assume things would be different if my wife is also Australian.

But you are correct, jumping through bureaucratic hoops is a crap reason to go travelling.

 

[serious_fun]

I was told my son needs to apply for citizenship in Australia

The way they put it to me was something along the lines of "Passport extensions and visas have been delegated to us, but citizenships are beyond our authority to process".

Surely there is some sort of "Report of Citizen Birth Abroad" or some such thing for Aussies? It sounds very strange! It should be nothing more than showing them a birth cert. and your passport.

Good luck

 

[flavus]

Surely there is some sort of "Report of Citizen Birth Abroad" or some such thing for Aussies? It sounds very strange! It should be nothing more than showing them a birth cert. and your passport.

Good luck

Yeah, the rule for Australians born overseas seem really stringent. More so than the US which is saying something

Immigration and citizenship Website

Find out about Australian visas, immigration and citizenship.

immi.homeaffairs.gov.au

Immigration and citizenship Website

Find out about Australian visas, immigration and citizenship.

immi.homeaffairs.gov.au

You could be eligible for Australian citizenship by descent if you were born outside Australia and one (or both) of your parents at the time of your birth was also an Australian citizen at that time.

As Sam said - answering two questions in the first link leads to the information that you have to bring the baby to Australia and register them there. Apparently even if both parents are Australian! No residency loophole or automatic citizenship if both parents are citizens like the US

Other countries seem more reasonable - I know Indonesia (assuming father is WNI or undeclared, pre-2006) and Italy would let you just register the birth at the consulate

Yikes... sorry you have to go through this Sam

 

[pantaiema]

Yeah, the rule for Australians born overseas seem really stringent. More so than the US which is saying something

Immigration and citizenship Website

Find out about Australian visas, immigration and citizenship.

immi.homeaffairs.gov.au

Immigration and citizenship Website

Find out about Australian visas, immigration and citizenship.

immi.homeaffairs.gov.au

As Sam said - answering two questions in the first link leads to the information that you have to bring the baby to Australia and register them there. Apparently even if both parents are Australian! No residency loophole or automatic citizenship if both parents are citizens like the US

Other countries seem more reasonable - I know Indonesia (assuming father is WNI or undeclared, pre-2006) and Italy would let you just register the birth at the consulate

Yikes... sorry you have to go through this Sam

Not even that, even their parents are not officially married, e.g just in partnership, as long as both parents are named in the birth certificates, certainly along with other documents, the baby could get passport / citizenship inherited from both parents, just by applying in the embassies.
In Europe it is not uncommon a baby has two three nationalities, even more than that by just applying in the embassy where the baby were born.

 

[pantaiema]

The way they put it to me was something along the lines of "Passport extensions and visas have been delegated to us, but citizenships are beyond our authority to process". I assume things would be different if my wife is also Australian.

But you are correct, jumping through bureaucratic hoops is a crap reason to go travelling.

Out of curiosity I tried this procedure and answering the quiz
Was the baby born in AU ? No
Was at least one parents an AU citizen at the time of the baby's birth ? Yes

And it is led to this site

Immigration and citizenship Website

Find out about Australian visas, immigration and citizenship.

immi.homeaffairs.gov.au

You must have been born outside Australia
ensure that the person you are claiming descent from was your parent at the time of your birth and was also an Australian citizen at the time of your birth
be of good character if you are 18 years old or over when you apply

You could even apply online

Immigration and citizenship Website

Find out about Australian visas, immigration and citizenship.

immi.homeaffairs.gov.au

The way I understand it. It does not say you or the Baby will need to be in Australia at the time of application.
Also it seems even a son is already over 18 years old, he could still apply by himself from outside AU as long as they have proof / evidence on what is needed.
What about asking a second opinion directly to the office of home affairs??