Digital Nomads (sick of them)

[snpark]

So . Morally wrong . Or smart way to avoid tax?

Atlantis, any idea what is the latest legal position here about this? Or is it still a grey area ?

Sick of reading and seeing this hippy types and others gloating about how clever they are to be staying here illegally on a tourist visa and working on their blogs etc and not paying tax or anything .

Just curious is it just me or do others think it's wrong and have no sympathy when they get caught. Especially in Bali, the place is full of them.

Can't wait to see new legislation that forces them all to pay their taxes at least a minimum and get an IMTA / kitas etc .

Surely the Govt realizes how much money it is losing every year in lost tax revenue? Far more than they lose by upsetting some freeloaders who live in a kos and sit in Starbucks all day hogging the WiFi .

They will not lose the real tourists who come because most of these digital nomads don't have or spend money here anyway . That's why they are here and not in Dubai or Silicon Valley

Just my 50 bitcoins

 

[Jaime C]

Why hate them? They’re not begging you for money?

I’ve been earning money in the US for almost 20 years, while traveling extensively, and even living in Indonesia. I’ve never once hogged the internet in a Starbucks!

 

[jstar]

.
Rather new is a so called working vacation. Companies send their staff to Bali (or other places...). So it goes much further than freelancers and bloggers etc.

It is weird that even companies actively stimulate their personnel to go to 'work' abroad without checking the legality. (What would happen if some employees got into trouble?)

And they even proudly advertise and use this to promote the company, in the press and on their own websites. So it's all in the open. The company rents a villa on Bali and sends its employees there for 1 month. Quite astonishing the RI government does not seem to care about this trend...


https://www.ad.nl/ad-werkt/werkneme...en-elke-winter-in-een-villa-op-bali~aaa9b53a/

https://www.workjuice.nl/amsterdams-marketingbureau-bali/

 

[snpark]

Why hate them? They’re not begging you for money?

I’ve been earning money in the US for almost 20 years, while traveling extensively, and even living in Indonesia. I’ve never once hogged the internet in a Starbucks!

Because you're too smart to waste money in Starbucks hahaha you go to the local places where they serve REAL coffee hahaha

It's hard to describe but just the way they are all mostly so self righteous and proud, and say "oh I'm a digital nomad, I don't even need an office"

Well good luck. But don't complain about the state of the roads in Bali if you are not prepared to contribute to their upkeep! (Not you Jaime)

 

[snpark]

.
Rather new is a so called working vacation. Companies send their staff to Bali (or other places...). So it goes much further than freelancers and bloggers etc.

It is weird that even companies actively stimulate their personnel to go to 'work' abroad without checking the legality. (What would happen if some employees got into trouble?)

And they even proudly advertise and use this to promote the company, in the press and on their own websites. So it's all in the open. The company rents a villa on Bali and sends its employees there for 1 month. Quite astonishing the RI government does not seem to care about this trend...


https://www.ad.nl/ad-werkt/werkneme...en-elke-winter-in-een-villa-op-bali~aaa9b53a/

https://www.workjuice.nl/amsterdams-marketingbureau-bali/

Exactly. We see the Govt even looking at Airbnb and loss of tax there . Soon I think will be these nomads will have nofreedom and noexcuse lol

 

[centurion]

No work permit is necessary for working remotely from Indonesia.

 

[Jamu]

No work permit is necessary for working remotely from Indonesia.

Hmmm, how do reckon that? If one's main activity in Indonesia is to work for money, albeit for an overseas employer or business - even their own, then at the very least it is a grey area and abuses both the terms of a tourist visa and a social budaya visa. Perhaps the correct answer is that a work permit is not possible, nor is their employment activity in Indonesia.

In any case, if these so-called nomads stay in Indonesia for 183 days in any twelve month period, then they are liable to pay Indonesian income tax on their world-wide income. I know of none who are doing this, so they are indeed breaking the law, despite the argument about whether they can legally work remotely on a tourist visa. And then one hears them in bars and cafes or posting on facebook, complaining about the level of corruption in Indonesia (e.g. having to bung a cop Rp 50k because they weren't wearing a helmet on their motorbike or didn't have the required driving license). Total hypocrites. I'm with @snpark on this issue.

 

[snpark]

And let's be honest yeh it's a pain but it's not that hard or expensive to set up your own PT and get kitas etc and be legal

If all these digital startups succeed then of course they will need staff, office, etc

But they never do. They just trade bitcoin or do blogs or something and moan non stop

Anyway maybe I just had a bad day but I just had an online discussion on a FB forum about this and it raised my hackles.

 

[centurion]

I am working for a foreign company remotely (various analysis papers) and paid from offshore, although I am a resident on a spouse KITAP and allowed to work and conduct business by Immigration Law.

To clarify that I am allowed for work for a company out of Indonesia from Indonesia, I went to Manpower Ministry in their Biro Hukum and they said to me that their stance is that work permits are for work for Indonesian entities in Indonesia and that works for foreign entities out of Indonesia is governed by laws of countries where these entities are.

However, these nomads are not residents so I am not sure if the same applied for them.

 

[R Cameron]

If all their income is from outside Indonesia, and they don't stay 183 days in 12 months, it's an area the law doesn't really properly address. Certainly no imigrasi or kemnaker official would have a problem with a western business person answering a few business emails or checking over a colleague's presentation while spending a few weeks in a typical Bali tourist location. "Digital Nomad" work is literally the same thing, just a higher ratio of work to vacation, and drawing a line about how much work is too much would be basically impossible, and even more impossible to enforce.

They should be far more concerned with the foreigners who are actually making their money in Indonesia without permits or paying taxes. A significant portion of the AirBnBs in Bali are "owned" by foreigners who are staying on Sosial Budaya or tourist visas and I am confident the vast majority are getting the money deposited directly into their foreign account without Indonesian taxes.

 

[R Cameron]

However, these nomads are not residents so I am not sure if the same applied for them.

I agree, I don't think Manpower has any issue with "digital nomads", but depending on the circumstances immigration and/or tax offices might.

 

[snpark]

I bet there's more digital nomads than actual kitas holders in Indonesia these days

Certainly less and less in Jakarta exc Korean and Japanese . Every week another European leaves or gets reassigned or "let go" and has to go home . Be curious how many bule in Bali on voa longer than 3 or 6months.
I saw one "blog" about one guy here for EIGHT years continuous voa and in and out to SG every few months . Crazy.

 

[atlantis]

if these so-called nomads stay in Indonesia for 183 days in any twelve month period, then they are liable to pay Indonesian income tax on their world-wide income.

The correct way to formulate it would be that if "these so-called nomads stay in Indonesia for 183 days in any twelve month period, then they are liable to declare their world-wide income to the Indonesian tax office and potentially be liable to pay some taxes depending on the tax treaty between the country they earn an income in and Indonesia.

As a matter of fact if my income is now mostly earned in Indonesia, till 2012 it wasn't and I submitted the tax declarations made in France and Thailand (the two other countries I had an income from) to my kantor pajak here, along with my yearly declaration here

However, it always got discarded with a "nothing more to pay" from my local tax office after hearing from me that I already paid taxes in both country. In fact they should have calculate what would have been levied in Indonesia and eventually request the difference if this amount would have been superior with Indonesian tax law applying.

Anyway, with the tax document submitted being written in thai and french, I am reasonably confident that the "nothing more to pay" was more a "please, don't make our day harder" than the result of a thorough examination.

 

[atlantis]

Atlantis, any idea what is the latest legal position here about this? Or is it still a grey area ?

I believe it is an area no civil servant from Imigrasi or Nakertrans give a sh*t about. It would be a pain to investigate and to gather proofs while there are some much easier bribe to extort elsewhere.

 

[Jaime C]

Maybe the UK/Pakstani woman who was in Bali so long was a Digital Nomad. She certainly has the people skills.

 

[Puspawarna]

Indonesia makes it incredibly difficult for foreigners to live and work legally in the country. I can't speak for everyone, but surely there are resident WNA individuals who would gladly be fully legitimate, tax-paying members of society ... but because it is virtually impossible for them to get a legit job in meatspace, they look to alternatives.

I can think of a couple of forum members, neither currently active (I won't say their names but I'm sure I'm not the only one who can think of who they are) who supported families in Indonesia while working on line. Their stay visas were in order, I'm sure, but neither had an IMTA (and the suggestion that they form a PMA is probably pretty ludicrously impossible). Both are, as far as I can tell, stand-up guys. They were doing what they could to be honorable husbands and fathers.

 

[dafluff]

Indonesia makes it incredibly difficult for foreigners to live and work legally in the country. I can't speak for everyone, but surely there are resident WNA individuals who would gladly be fully legitimate, tax-paying members of society ... but because it is virtually impossible for them to get a legit job in meatspace, they look to alternatives.

Yep, this is a large part of the problem. Instead of courting foreign talent, they are actively making it harder for them to work here. In my ideal Indonesia, they should open the job market completely to any foreigner with competency, say a reputable 4 year degree or equivalent experience. They should also allow the spouses of such a work permit, because increasingly two incomes (not to mention two careers) in a family is a necessity. The economic benefit and job creation if they allow this would be amazing. But no, as always only first level thinking (more foreigners = fewer jobs for locals) is what the majority in government can process.

 

[centurion]

I can think of a couple of forum members, neither currently active (I won't say their names but I'm sure I'm not the only one who can think of who they are) who supported families in Indonesia while working on line. Their stay visas were in order, I'm sure, but neither had an IMTA (and the suggestion that they form a PMA is probably pretty ludicrously impossible). Both are, as far as I can tell, stand-up guys. They were doing what they could to be honorable husbands and fathers.

Work online for an offshore entity is OK according to Manpower Legal Department. Consequently, being paid to an Indonesian bank account and reporting taxes for that work is also an acceptable practice.

 

[jstar]

....Manpower Ministry in their Biro Hukum and they said to me that their stance is that work permits are for work for Indonesian entities in Indonesia and that works for foreign entities out of Indonesia is governed by laws of countries where these entities are.

Work online for an offshore entity is OK according to Manpower Legal Department.

This is not the same.

Of course when these laws were first drafted, there was no Internet yet. But it has always been stated by Manpower and their laws, that people working in Indonesia, should be working for an Indonesian company.

Again an example where a test case in court would clarify a lot.

 

[centurion]

How can be a test case in the court when it is not forbidden?