17 dead in u.s. high school

[Nimbus]

Here is the scenario that likely to happen when a shooter arrives at the school.

Shooter (thinking): 'Bastard! They put up a no gun sticker on the gate!' I wasted so much time to pack all these weapons and only to find this goddamn no gun sticker on the school wall.'

The shooter hurried home angrily.

Those shooters have planned their attack and I don't think 100 stickers would deter them. Imagine if they had no access to gun, you can save up the money that is used to print out those stickers, buy security devices, and hire armed guards etc.

There is an inappropriate joke about the shootings in schools: "What makes the school in the US different to other part of the world? The answer is that the schools in US have indoor shooting range!". Awful innit? But that reflects how dumb the gun politics in the US is.

The NRA's approach to gun (a good guy with gun will bring down a bad guy with gun) is similar to the US's foreign policy. Hey look that's Saddam Hussein, the bad guy with the gun! Let's deploy our military and bomb the shit out of Iraq. Oh...another bad guy with gun in Afghanistan! Quick deploy our best soldiers to defeat them. Not only did those good guys kill many 'bad guys' but they also created a massive mess. The good guys with gun can't even sort out problem in their yards. Pathetic.

That sticker is the law. I would never bring a gun to school, because I am not a criminal or a psycho. They absolutely work to keep law abiding people like me from bringing guns. You asked why none of the "cowboys" show up to save the day, part of the answer is that we're not legally allowed to be there with a gun, and the other part is because there are actually very few who carry daily.

The law works, just not against the very kind of people it intends to stop.

Imagine they have no access to guns? I like to make believe too, but hope is not a plan. You can live in the fantasy world where USA has no guns, I have to live in the real USA with more guns than people, so I have to occasionally be a "cowboy".

The reality is that nothing short of mandatory buyback of all civilian guns would change the situation in a meaningful way. In turn this is impossible without a constitutional amendment. Any gun ban that doesn't include a buyback is useless. Worse, it's discriminatory against people who come after the law is enacted. The local Nazis already have all the rifles they want, but recently immigrated Indian programmers are SOL.

 

[waarmstrong]

The law is not working. Both sides agree on that. The choice of courses of action -- more or fewer people with more or fewer guns and more or less lethal guns -- is clear, as well. With passions running high (as they always seem to be after each mass shooting), the majority have made their desires known; I hope that passion gets reflected in mid-term choices. As I said earlier, I am not optimistic.

 

[Nimbus]

The law is not working. Both sides agree on that. The choice of courses of action -- more or fewer people with more or fewer guns and more or less lethal guns -- is clear, as well. With passions running high (as they always seem to be after each mass shooting), the majority have made their desires known; I hope that passion gets reflected in mid-term choices. As I said earlier, I am not optimistic.

The law doesn't work not because it's a bad law, but because there is only so much a law can do. At a certain point it has to move beyond words on paper. UK and Australia understand that restriction alone is meaningless, you have to physically remove the guns from circulation.

It would be entertaining if it weren't sad, that people keep focusing on legal restriction. I guess that's the Puritan way, just add more punishment and the problem will go away. Nevermind that crazy people who shoot up schools don't care about getting punished, or killed.

I'm interested in this claim that the solution is clear. Assuming you mean less guns is better: with less than a million guns, UK and Australia managed to get some mass shootings, so they reduced it even more. How are you going to reduce 300+ million guns in USA to UK and Australia level?

Assuming they reinstituted the Assault Weapons Ban, it does not take a single gun out of circulation. On the contrary people will buy tens of millions of these rifles as soon as the law is proposed, so they get to keep them when the law is enacted.

In the end nothing is going to be done. Republicans don't want more restrictions, let alone a constitutional amendment. They don't want to spend on schools (for more police officers on premise) nor on social programs to reduce violence either. Democrats want minor restrictions that makes no difference, just so they are seen as doing something. In the long run their bans only serve to alienate law abiding gun owners, without reducing mass shootings.

 

[Davita]

Many view the gun situation as impossible to solve but I suggest that's wrong. Americans have solved their domestic problems before and will do again.
i.e. They more or less eliminated the Italian mobs without executing, or deporting, ALL Sicilians. After much dispute they more or less resolved the Prohibition fiasco and allowed drinking with restrictions. They eliminated smoking in closed spaces without totally banning smoking....and many more.

Did anyone see the determination in those young kids interviewed on TV. I was very proud to witness their resolve and, as they must be close to 18, if I were a politician I'd be looking at that group in regard to solving problems instead of yawing about them.

Churchill (his mother was an American) is attributed, although disputed, with saying....."You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else."
imho......very apt!

 

[Jamu]

Many view the gun situation as impossible to solve but I suggest that's wrong. Americans have solved their domestic problems before and will do again.
i.e. They more or less eliminated the Italian mobs without executing, or deporting, ALL Sicilians. After much dispute they more or less resolved the Prohibition fiasco and allowed drinking with restrictions. They eliminated smoking in closed spaces without totally banning smoking....and many more.

Did anyone see the determination in those young kids interviewed on TV. I was very proud to witness their resolve and, as they must be close to 18, if I were a politician I'd be looking at that group in regard to solving problems instead of yawing about them.

Churchill (his mother was an American) is attributed, although disputed, with saying....."You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else."
imho......very apt!

Not a chance in hell this will happen. The NRA is without doubt the most powerful political lobby in the US, and it will prey on Americans' natural fear, paranoia and strong belief in conspiracy theories to block any restriction of gun rights. Moreover, it will continue to bankroll gun friendly lawmakers and spend millions to destroy the reputations of those who seek gun control. In fact, since the orange faced dipshit arrived at the white house, the only thing that has happened re guns is that the mentally ill are now allowed to own them without a background check. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ng-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221 Davita, you hold sentimental notions of what America used to be. However, it is no longer a country where a majority of people aspire to do right in their own society and the world.

 

[atlantis]

They more or less eliminated the Italian mobs without executing, or deporting, ALL Sicilians.

Lucky Luciano and Joe Adonis would raise an eyebrow on that assertion.

 

[Davita]

Lucky Luciano and Joe Adonis would raise an eyebrow on that assertion.

Lucky Luciano and Joe (who) Adonis aren't ALL Sicilians...only the fall guys. Anyway, they were eventually permitted to return to the USA.....in caskets...

 

[ponyexpress]

That sticker is the law. I would never bring a gun to school, because I am not a criminal or a psycho. They absolutely work to keep law abiding people like me from bringing guns. You asked why none of the "cowboys" show up to save the day, part of the answer is that we're not legally allowed to be there with a gun, and the other part is because there are actually very few who carry daily.

The law works, just not against the very kind of people it intends to stop.

Imagine they have no access to guns? I like to make believe too, but hope is not a plan. You can live in the fantasy world where USA has no guns, I have to live in the real USA with more guns than people, so I have to occasionally be a "cowboy".

The reality is that nothing short of mandatory buyback of all civilian guns would change the situation in a meaningful way. In turn this is impossible without a constitutional amendment. Any gun ban that doesn't include a buyback is useless. Worse, it's discriminatory against people who come after the law is enacted. The local Nazis already have all the rifles they want, but recently immigrated Indian programmers are SOL.

There was an armed officer in Florida high school and so were in Virginia university. None of these armed guards (good cowboys) did something substantial to prevent the gun violence.

One of the survivors from Florida shooting made an amazing speech and called for a massive legal reform on gun. Sadly, some of trolls on the net ridiculed her. Those who are up against these kids are mostly gun owners. These macho gun lovers feel that they are nothing without their weapons since they liken these machine to their second penis.

If gun law reform is not on the table, then the US should make kids spend less time to finish their level of education. Instead of doing 6 years of primary school, they should do 2 years and 1 year for high school etc. Who knows these kids won't make it to graduation if staying longer at school. Some lunatics might have taken their lives before they get out of school. Oh there are shooters too in the cinema or even when you are at the concert.

One of the arguments that is put forth by gun advocates is that guns don't kill people but people kill people. However, they send soldiers with weapon to Iraq and Afghanistan. Why can't they kill other combatants with bare hand?

 

[Nimbus]

Many view the gun situation as impossible to solve but I suggest that's wrong. Americans have solved their domestic problems before and will do again.
i.e. They more or less eliminated the Italian mobs without executing, or deporting, ALL Sicilians. After much dispute they more or less resolved the Prohibition fiasco and allowed drinking with restrictions. They eliminated smoking in closed spaces without totally banning smoking....and many more.

Did anyone see the determination in those young kids interviewed on TV. I was very proud to witness their resolve and, as they must be close to 18, if I were a politician I'd be looking at that group in regard to solving problems instead of yawing about them.

Churchill (his mother was an American) is attributed, although disputed, with saying....."You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else."
imho......very apt!

I wouldn't count on them to ban guns. The kids in this particular high schools might be passionate against firearms, but their generation isn't.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/12/are-millennials-moving-right-on-guns-215703

What I can sort of see is more emphasis on making healthcare more affordable (or free) so there's more resources on mental health. This is coupled with more and more people carrying guns, so it will eventually reach a level where mass shootings are less successful. They tend to view socialism favorably, but they are also the demographic with the most support on concealed gun carry. They are the largest voting block since the baby boomers.

 

[Davita]

Re: post # 49.
Thanks for that link Nimbus...very long and very informative. I'm not sure the article itself was a startling insight and many paras were written to show contradictory arguments and thus no conclusion except...wait and see. Which I think is the only reality...maybe November's election will be more indicative.

 

[Nimbus]

There was an armed officer in Florida high school and so were in Virginia university. None of these armed guards (good cowboys) did something substantial to prevent the gun violence.

Yes, I understand that there aren't enough of them around. You and the NRA keep saying that. Unfortunately until the government put more funding in schools for security, nothing is going to change.

One of the survivors from Florida shooting made an amazing speech and called for a massive legal reform on gun. Sadly, some of trolls on the net ridiculed her. Those who are up against these kids are mostly gun owners. These macho gun lovers feel that they are nothing without their weapons since they liken these machine to their second penis.

What if they don't have penis to begin with? A lot of the most fervent gun owners are women who feel guns are an equalizer. They might be smaller than men, but that size difference is no advantage against guns.

The biggest growth in gun ownership are in minorities: blacks, latinos, asian, and LGBT. In the curent climate where plain bigotry is cool again, owning a gun feels like a necessity to a lot of these folks.

http://www.myajc.com/news/why-african-americans-are-gun-shy-about-the-nra/8vkZEnxpS76Ag4TjaobMGP/

It is unfortunate that there are trolls on the internet, but that's the Internet for you.

If gun law reform is not on the table, then the US should make kids spend less time to finish their level of education. Instead of doing 6 years of primary school, they should do 2 years and 1 year for high school etc. Who knows these kids won't make it to graduation if staying longer at school. Some lunatics might have taken their lives before they get out of school. Oh there are shooters too in the cinema or even when you are at the concert.

Or you can put more police officers at or around schools.

One of the arguments that is put forth by gun advocates is that guns don't kill people but people kill people. However, they send soldiers with weapon to Iraq and Afghanistan. Why can't they kill other combatants with bare hand?

I hate it when people say that. It's logically correct that a gun doesn't shoot itself, but it's intellectually lazy and it doesn't help the discussion.

 

[Nimbus]

Re: post # 49.
Thanks for that link Nimbus...very long and very informative. I'm not sure the article itself was a startling insight and many paras were written to show contradictory arguments and thus no conclusion except...wait and see. Which I think is the only reality...maybe November's election will be more indicative.

Politico is fairly neutral, maybe slightly left-leaning. They have no interest in promoting guns.

Based on my own personal experience, the article is largely true. It is very interesting that their position largely mirrors my own. They accept that guns is a fact of life in America, but they don't necessarily think it's a tool against tyranny, like the NRA and the right wing nuts like to say. They see a gun as a practical tool for safety, and there's no harm in registering and regulating it like a car.

 

[Daniel50]

Politico is fairly neutral, maybe slightly left-leaning. They have no interest in promoting guns.

Based on my own personal experience, the article is largely true. It is very interesting that their position largely mirrors my own. They accept that guns is a fact of life in America, but they don't necessarily think it's a tool against tyranny, like the NRA and the right wing nuts like to say. They see a gun as a practical tool for safety, and there's no harm in registering and regulating it like a car.

So not much will change, except even more guns in the US. That is just the way it is, nothing can be done. School and other shootings will continue but at least more people are armed to "try" and defend themselves ( I don't believe that, but I understand there is a different mentality/culture around guns). Even more people armed to try to protect themselves from others who are armed. Oh well that is just life in the US. No thanks.

 

[Nimbus]

So not much will change, except even more guns in the US. That is just the way it is, nothing can be done. School and other shootings will continue but at least more people are armed to "try" and defend themselves ( I don't believe that, but I understand there is a different mentality/culture around guns). Even more people armed to try to protect themselves from others who are armed. Oh well that is just life in the US. No thanks.

It is kind of a vicious circle. I'm afraid things are going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[Davita]

Just been watching an interview on Fox (Carlton Tucker) where someone was saying in 2002 Germany had a similar massacre of schoolkids and there wasn't anything done. He omitted to mention that since 2002 Germans introduced draconian gun-laws which are probably the strictest in EU. Tucker didn't even blink and allowed the interviewee to spiel venom on any-gun law reform without questioning resources.

 

[steveandpenny]

Just been watching an interview on Fox (Carlton Tucker) where someone was saying in 2002 Germany had a similar massacre of schoolkids and there wasn't anything done. He omitted to mention that since 2002 Germans introduced draconian gun-laws which are probably the strictest in EU. Tucker didn't even blink and allowed the interviewee to spiel venom on any-gun law reform without questioning resources.

My question to you is why the hell are you watching fox news ? I can only do about 2 min before I'm sick to my stomach and my blood pressure goes up.

 

[Davita]

My question to you is why the hell are you watching fox news ? I can only do about 2 min before I'm sick to my stomach and my blood pressure goes up.

I confess steve...me too...I cannot stand their presentation and switching between their hard-news and cowboy-music doesn't cut it for me but probably does with Fox aficionados.
However, between CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera, Euro and News Asia I try to get another perspective...but its FF..ing hard-work listening to that propaganda. I get Russian (RT) in Jakarta and it has less crap than Fox.

 

[ponyexpress]

Yes, I understand that there aren't enough of them around. You and the NRA keep saying that. Unfortunately until the government put more funding in schools for security, nothing is going to change.


What if they don't have penis to begin with? A lot of the most fervent gun owners are women who feel guns are an equalizer. They might be smaller than men, but that size difference is no advantage against guns.

The biggest growth in gun ownership are in minorities: blacks, latinos, asian, and LGBT. In the curent climate where plain bigotry is cool again, owning a gun feels like a necessity to a lot of these folks.

http://www.myajc.com/news/why-african-americans-are-gun-shy-about-the-nra/8vkZEnxpS76Ag4TjaobMGP/

It is unfortunate that there are trolls on the internet, but that's the Internet for you.


Or you can put more police officers at or around schools.


I hate it when people say that. It's logically correct that a gun doesn't shoot itself, but it's intellectually lazy and it doesn't help the discussion.

Funny that you think I am a supporter of NRA. Many got my sarcasm in my previous post which asked about where are the good guys with gun. But you clearly didn't or perhaps you like to see things from your own lens than listen to others?

Interesting link from politico though.

 

[steveandpenny]

I confess steve...me too...I cannot stand their presentation and switching between their hard-news and cowboy-music doesn't cut it for me but probably does with Fox aficionados.
However, between CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera, Euro and News Asia I try to get another perspective...but its FF..ing hard-work listening to that propaganda. I get Russian (RT) in Jakarta and it has less crap than Fox.

I do like Asian news and al-jezeera for straight unbiased news .was surprised with al-jezeera in the states alway thought it was a extreme Muslim show. Little did I know.

 

[William King]

There have been 18 gun incidents at schools in the US this year so far,it’s very odd that an 18 year old can be a gun in Florida but not a beer, very odd

Best be accurate.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html