Death penalty, as more are to die tonight (if the rain stops)

[Bad_azz]

Do you believe that Indonesia should reform the death penalty legislation?

Personally it saddens me that humans seek to kill other humans under any guise, be it legitimately or not.

Surely there are more effective ways to get compliance with laws?

& what about all those people who were really behind Jokowi in the elections- how do they feel now that his government has put to death more in his term than in the previous decade (or will have by morning- apparently they are waiting for the rain to stop before the executions).

 

[Nimbus]

I'm not against the death penalty, but it should be reserved only for premeditated murder. As serious as drug dealing is, I think we can afford to give convicts a life sentence instead.

 

[Puspawarna]

I oppose the death penalty under any circumstances, but I understand how people could feel differently.

My reasons tend to be based in the history of executions in the United States, so I'm not sure if my practical reasons would apply in Indonesia - for example, it actually ends up being much more expensive to execute someone than it does imprisoning them for life.

There are some cases where people might "deserve" to die even in my bleeding-heart-liberal mind: serial killers, people who rape and torture children, etc. However, those are the ones we should most want to keep alive, in case advances in neuropsychology give us better tools to study exactly what is wrong with them.

 

[Dan]

I think Indonesia should reform its death penalty policy, but not because I'm against the death penalty. We've reached a point where DNA evidence can frequently both exonerate someone truly innocent or definitively prove his guilt. It helps to remove all doubt that the crime has been committed, including crimes so hideous that there's no chance for reform of the criminal. Indonesia does not yet have this capacity, its criminal justice is much more corrupt than is usual, and so I cannot in good conscience recommend this policy.

As far as the death penalty here at home, on the contrary, I am all in favor ramping up executions in cases with overwhelming DNA evidence. The belief that a murderer can be put in jail and is no longer a danger to society is nonsense: he's still a threat to other prisoners and prison employees. This is not an ethical solution to the problem, it's simply sweeping it under the rug and forgetting about it. He's still sucking up resources, a true burden to house and segregate from the rest of us. I am perfectly at home with reforming the appeals process and speeding up their executions when there is overwhelming DNA evidence in cases of murder and rape.

 

[atlantis]

4 people have been murdered last night in Nusakambangan.

They were Freddy Budiman (WNI), Seck Osmani (Senegal), Humphrey Jefferson Rjike Eleweke (Nigeria), and Michael Titus Igweh (Nigeria).

Out of the 4, two were mules and 1 was at best a nurse. Only Freddy was a boss. One has always claimed his innocence and though heroin has been found in his restaurant, it was found in a room used by one of his employee.

 

[Anglian]

Not a keen fan of executions, although some crimes probably deserve it, but here in Indonesia the legal system is so corrupt,unless you have mega bucks like the drug baron, you will only get a slap on the wrist and a minimum jail sentence, where as the drug mule who probably needs the cash gets shot, these executions aren't going down well world wide, mind the Philipines seem to be having a different approach, they just shoot the dealers dead, no trail.

 

[Jim69]

I feel the death penalty for possession of drugs is unfair. Most of the people who get caught are scapegoats or just to stupid to understand the trouble they are getting into. Mules i guess. Most of who are desperate and poor people.

Using them for a few years of real hard labor, repairing rods or cleaning the drains, would make a lot more sense. I am sure if you spent 5 years cleaning out the crap from the waterways here, you would never want to do it a second time.

As for sex crimes against children then i feel death is a good solution. If not death then castration.

 

[rabbit_39]

My only concerns, as already been stated above is simply the fact that the wrong people can still easily be convicted here in Indonesia.

 

[William King]

We've reached a point where DNA evidence can [redacted] definitively prove his guilt. It helps to remove all doubt that the crime has been committed,

Actually, you are completely wrong, and this is the problem, because many non-scientists believe the same. DNA cannot prove a crime was committed, it can only provide overwhelming evidence that a person was present in a particular location, in fact, even that can be doubtful.

Now sure, seminal DNA in a rape and murder case, can prove that someone may have left their semen behind, but that does not prove it was rape or not, it does not prove that they killed the victim or not. No, if the person was saying that they were not present in the location or did not have sex with that person, a positive DNA match shows they were lying and therefore the logical implication was that they did it. But we need to be careful about what DNA can prove or not prove.

Aside from all that, I don't agree with state sanctioned murder.

 

[phiss]

For or against makes no difference to me. The law in Indonesia makes it clear that the death penalty is the ultimate punishment for certain crimes. When in Indonesia, you have to abide by Indonesian law or suffer the consequence, in the same way you have to do so when in USA,UK or any other country you happen to be living in at the time you committed the crime.

 

[Ali]

for example, it actually ends up being much more expensive to execute someone than it does imprisoning them for life.

Really? How can execute someone after 6 months or a year is more expensive than keep someone 25 or 30 years in a Jail?

 

[Bad_azz]

Really? How can execute someone after 6 months or a year is more expensive than keep someone 25 or 30 years in a Jail?

Because usually those who are to be executed have around 10 years in jail of seeking appeal and appeals on their appeals etc... then there are the political costs associated with pissing off human Rights groups and countries who are very much against the death penalty.
Then there are the associated costs of employing the executioners etc etc...
& bear in mind that it is highly unlikely a lot of government cash gets spent on prisoners in Indonesian prisons.

 

[Ali]

To protect our children, I am for death penalty, I think is the more efficient and less expensive way to punish.
How many stories of children raped and killed by pedophile who was just out from jail! Why take the risk and spend our taxes money for give food, confort, psy therapies, medicines etc.
For drugs, I am for death penalty when it concerns dealers of heroine, meth, crack. I prefer the way Indonesia treats the drugs problem than westerns countries that I find too laxist. When I was teenagers, we could purchase heroine easily than alcohol, about 50% of my childhood friends fall in this trap and today are in jail, dead by overdose, aids or police shot, some still alive but with hiv positive, drug junky, in perpetual rehab, 45 years old unemployed living mom's home. A drug dealer kills and destroy so many life and families much more than the most crazy serial killer.

 

[Ali]

Because usually those who are to be executed have around 10 years in jail of seeking appeal and appeals on their appeals etc... then there are the political costs associated with pissing off human Rights groups and countries who are very much against the death penalty.
Then there are the associated costs of employing the executioners etc etc...
& bear in mind that it is highly unlikely a lot of government cash gets spent on prisoners in Indonesian prisons.

In Indonesia, they have also 10 years in Jail before execution?

 

[HappyMan]

To protect our children, I am for death penalty, I think is the more efficient and less expensive way to punish.
How many stories of children raped and killed by pedophile who was just out from jail! Why take the risk and spend our taxes money for give food, confort, psy therapies, medicines etc.
For drugs, I am for death penalty when it concerns dealers of heroine, meth, crack. I prefer the way Indonesia treats the drugs problem than westerns countries that I find too laxist. When I was teenagers, we could purchase heroine easily than alcohol, about 50% of my childhood friends fall in this trap and today are in jail, dead by overdose, aids or police shot, some still alive but with hiv positive, drug junky, in perpetual rehab, 45 years old unemployed living mom's home. A drug dealer kills and destroy so many life and families much more than the most crazy serial killer.

Are you sure you mean to say 50%?

I don't have much use for the groups you mention here, child abusers and hardcore poison peddlers. I wouldn't mid so much if the victims "took care of them". I wouldn't mid if they spent the remained of their lives in a hard labor camp (work to eat, not torture). But, I'd be willing to bet that a poll of the forum would show that most of us don't have a whole lot of faith in the fairness and justice of the Indonesian legal system. I mean, the system you advocate would have the JIS teachers executed, right? Well, I'm pretty sure most of us think they should have been acquitted.

Personally, I just don't think the government should be in the business of the cold blooded murder of it's own citizens.

 

[Anglian]

Well I suppose if you are going to execute someone, 10 years is a good time to wait in case you have an inocent person, I wouldn't like to count the number of people hung in error, the most famous in UK was a chap called Evans, he was fitted up by a gentleman called Christie who murder is wife and baby, as Christie was a Special war time policeman he was believe more than Evans who protested his innocence all the way to the hanging, Chritie went on to murder several more women, quite a gruesome film was made of Chistie "10 Rilington Place" that case and hanging a mistreated women who murdered her lover caused people's opinion to go against hanging in the UK, though an occasional child murder case calls for its reinstatement

 

[fastpitch17]

To protect our children, I am for death penalty, I think is the more efficient and less expensive way to punish.
How many stories of children raped and killed by pedophile who was just out from jail! Why take the risk and spend our taxes money for give food, confort, psy therapies, medicines etc.
For drugs, I am for death penalty when it concerns dealers of heroine, meth, crack. I prefer the way Indonesia treats the drugs problem than westerns countries that I find too laxist. When I was teenagers, we could purchase heroine easily than alcohol, about 50% of my childhood friends fall in this trap and today are in jail, dead by overdose, aids or police shot, some still alive but with hiv positive, drug junky, in perpetual rehab, 45 years old unemployed living mom's home. A drug dealer kills and destroy so many life and families much more than the most crazy serial killer.

And why may I ask are they NOT executing serial rapist, child molesters, and murders? The problem isn't so much they execute drug traffickers, it's the questions so many ask if they are actually guilty of the charges they were convicted of? Someone slipping drugs into your bags unbeknownst to you puts you ties to a tree in a jungle and shot. Indonesia is pretty well known world wide for their mistreatment of suspects and willingness to do whatever they can to get a confession from someone even if that someone is known to be innocent but happen to be the polices flavor of the month.

 

[Ali]

Are you sure you mean to say 50%?

Yes I mean 50 % and at least

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/18/heroin-drugs-sink-estates-france

 

[Dan]

Actually, you are completely wrong, and this is the problem, because many non-scientists believe the same. DNA cannot prove a crime was committed, it can only provide overwhelming evidence that a person was present in a particular location, in fact, even that can be doubtful.

Now sure, seminal DNA in a rape and murder case, can prove that someone may have left their semen behind, but that does not prove it was rape or not, it does not prove that they killed the victim or not. No, if the person was saying that they were not present in the location or did not have sex with that person, a positive DNA match shows they were lying and therefore the logical implication was that they did it. But we need to be careful about what DNA can prove or not prove.

Aside from all that, I don't agree with state sanctioned murder.

Observe the disconnect: DNA evidence is hailed as the holy grail of innocence yet not of guilt. You, also a non-scientist teacher, jump to the authority of Zai-ence! (with my best Austrian accent) to speak from authority when you're a lowly slob just like me.

Proving that the perp was there is half the battle in prosecution. Finding their semen or their hair or their saliva or their skin and so on at the scene proves they were there, it can sometimes prove a relationship between the perp and the victim. Used in connection with the other evidence and it's a smoking gun, it becomes impossible to deny they committed the crime.

You do not agree with state-sanctioned murder as you call it, but you agree with taking their time, caging them? Out of sight, out of mind. It becomes merely a problem you throw money at, a holding pen because you don't have any other answer with how to deal with our intraspecies predators. There's a great answer staring us in the face, it's executing them.

 

[Dan]

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Really? How can execute someone after 6 months or a year is more expensive than keep someone 25 or 30 years in a Jail?

Six months to a year would not be, but in reality most death penalty cases in developed nations are very expensive because of the legal costs that accrue over decades.

The death penalty is not a deterrent (ask the Romans; they crucified people for as little as petty theft yet no one walked the streets of Rome at night), it is retribution. The important questions to ask are, can we ethically give the state sanction to kill its own citizens and what are our alternatives. The truth is that there really isn't an alternative, caging someone for all of his life is not an ethical solution and presents a danger to other inmates/prison staff. It's simply sweeping the problem under the rug.

People want to wrap themselves up in the fuzzy, good feelings of doing what they perceive to be the just, humane option, which to them is keeping our worst criminals alive. They like to believe we can just polish a turd so much that it becomes a productive member of society, no threat to anyone. Once a killer, once a rapist, always a killer, always a rapist. They'll keep doing it in prison just as they did on the outside, they're just no longer a threat to *society*.