Death penalty, as more are to die tonight (if the rain stops)

[Dan]

Are you sure you mean to say 50%?

I don't have much use for the groups you mention here, child abusers and hardcore poison peddlers. I wouldn't mid so much if the victims "took care of them". I wouldn't mid if they spent the remained of their lives in a hard labor camp (work to eat, not torture). But, I'd be willing to bet that a poll of the forum would show that most of us don't have a whole lot of faith in the fairness and justice of the Indonesian legal system. I mean, the system you advocate would have the JIS teachers executed, right? Well, I'm pretty sure most of us think they should have been acquitted.

Personally, I just don't think the government should be in the business of the cold blooded murder of it's own citizens.

So you're OK with the death penalty if the victim throws the switch? You can see that your answer is not too dissimilar from most people, they worry about the state's authority to kill its own citizens. Yet they also know, deep down inside, it's the best solution. You want them killed, you just don't seem to want to fully admit to it.

I prefer to place myself in the shoes of the victim or their family. If I were thrown into the situation where my children or wife was raped or murdered, how would I respond? Would I be satisfied with a sentence where they are put in prison, where they could still do it to someone?

No.

My greatest satisfaction would be to kill him myself. I would take lesser pleasure in learning the state executed him, but I suppose it would be the best I could hope for. If left to my own devices, where I knew completely he had committed the crime and I had access to the perp: I would kill him without reservations. My conscience would be completely clean.

 

[HappyMan]

So you're OK with the death penalty if the victim throws the switch? You can see that your answer is not too dissimilar from most people, they worry about the state's authority to kill its own citizens. Yet they also know, deep down inside, it's the best solution. You want them killed, you just don't seem to want to fully admit to it.

I prefer to place myself in the shoes of the victim or their family. If I were thrown into the situation where my children or wife was raped or murdered, how would I respond? Would I be satisfied with a sentence where they are put in prison, where they could still do it to someone?

No.

My greatest satisfaction would be to kill him myself. I would take lesser pleasure in learning the state executed him, but I suppose it would be the best I could hope for. If left to my own devices, where I knew completely he had committed the crime and I had access to the perp: I would kill him without reservations. My conscience would be completely clean.

Yes, that is more or less how I feel.

I also think that when possible, the government should reflect a higher standard of humanity than I, myself, represent. I seldom give to charity, but I want my government to do so. I expect my government to act with charity, on my behalf. Similarly, I don't want my government acting on a base desire for revenge, since that is clearly all we get out of state executions. I'd much rather they put the bastards to work and let them prey upon one another (once they run out of appeals). Give them an island and let them harvest fucking salt. In the meantime, you can come back from harvesting salt if you happen to be exonerated.

 

[Puspawarna]

My greatest satisfaction would be to kill him myself. I would take lesser pleasure in learning the state executed him, but I suppose it would be the best I could hope for. If left to my own devices, where I knew completely he had committed the crime and I had access to the perp: I would kill him without reservations. My conscience would be completely clean.

Honestly, the idea of taking "pleasure" at killing someone is repugnant to me, no matter what the circumstances.

For those who want the authority to personally kill anyone who rapes or murders a family member, is that a blanket conviction (heh, no pun intended), or would you make exceptions? For example -

- Your entire family is murdered by a drunk driver who slaughters them as he speed through an intersection while they are crossing the street. This driver was a 16-year-old from an abusive family who drank to extinguish the pain of years or assault from the people closest to him. Do you kill him?

- Unbeknownst to you, when your beloved son is 11 an emotionally troubled cousin begins sexually abusing him. Unable to stand the degradation any longer, when he is 14 your son lashes out at the cousin, killing him. So now your son just killed a family member. Do you kill him?

My point is that not every situation where a crime is committed is cut and dried. Leaving decisions about who lives and who dies to personal judgment seems extremely unwise. And even if you, Dan, will always make the "right" decision, do you trust your neighbor with the power to execute criminals at will?

I don't support state-sanctioned murder, but lawfully executing a criminal who has been tried and found guilty by a justice system that in theory at least is exactly that - just - is far superior to letting citizens exact revenge according to the "pleasure" they take in it.

 

[Nimbus]

I like the idea that the victim's survivors have a say in the punishment. The state can still impose the death penalty for murder by default, but if the survivors explicitly request so, it can be commuted to a life sentence. This way if the family is against the death penalty on principle, they can choose to spare him. If the family wants the convict to pay with his life, then they simply do nothing and let the process run its course.

 

[atlantis]

In Indonesia, they have also 10 years in Jail before execution?

Yes.
Freddy Budiman, one of the 4 narapidana executed was an exception. The three others were imprisoned since for their execution since as far as 2003.

A Malaysian is imprisoned since 1995.

There are HUGE concerns about the legality of the recent executions and at least three of them have seen their case riddled with abuses of their rights.

 

[Dan]

Honestly, the idea of taking "pleasure" at killing someone is repugnant to me, no matter what the circumstances.

Eh, what makes each of us tick is markedly different. I can't bring back my loved ones, but I can ensure it doesn't happen again and, most importantly, I can exact vengeance.

For those who want the authority to personally kill anyone who rapes or murders a family member, is that a blanket conviction (heh, no pun intended), or would you make exceptions? For example -

- Your entire family is murdered by a drunk driver who slaughters them as he speed through an intersection while they are crossing the street. This driver was a 16-year-old from an abusive family who drank to extinguish the pain of years or assault from the people closest to him. Do you kill him?

Murdered by a drunk driver? If the driver got drunk with the intention of murdering a family, or even my family in specific, then yes, I'd lobby for his death/do the deed myself. Drunk drivers are typically not murderers though, there's no premeditation or even sudden impulse.

As described I would want him in jail and probably his parents too.

- Unbeknownst to you, when your beloved son is 11 an emotionally troubled cousin begins sexually abusing him. Unable to stand the degradation any longer, when he is 14 your son lashes out at the cousin, killing him. So now your son just killed a family member. Do you kill him?

So the cousin is both a pedophile and potential rapist? Sounds like my son just performed a public service. No, I wouldn't seek retaliation against my son for defending himself from a predator. My son would probably need to be incarcerated.

My point is that not every situation where a crime is committed is cut and dried. Leaving decisions about who lives and who dies to personal judgment seems extremely unwise. And even if you, Dan, will always make the "right" decision, do you trust your neighbor with the power to execute criminals at will?

I don't support state-sanctioned murder, but lawfully executing a criminal who has been tried and found guilty by a justice system that in theory at least is exactly that - just - is far superior to letting citizens exact revenge according to the "pleasure" they take in it.

I don't trust any individual with the power to kill others. To be clear, I wasn't suggesting I be given executive authority to "clean." I was saying that in spite of the law I would seek retaliation because that's satisfying for me; it fulfills my need for vengeance if I believe justice won't be served. I don't know if I could live with myself if I didn't try to enact some kind of vengeance. It wouldn't work for my personality. To not seek to take everything from someone who did the same to me would be capitulation, failure. Forgiveness in an attempt to move on is worthless to me, I'd have nothing to live for in the above scenario. I honestly cannot conceive of a world where my kids or wife were intentionally taken from me or were made to suffer to that degree. I would just go postal, it's the only sort of coping mechanism I would have.

 

[Puspawarna]

Eh, what makes each of us tick is markedly different. I can't bring back my loved ones, but I can ensure it doesn't happen again and, most importantly, I can exact vengeance.

So would I be correct in inferring that, "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord" is not an Islamic concept?

I don't trust any individual with the power to kill others. To be clear, I wasn't suggesting I be given executive authority to "clean."

That's kind of what I was expecting you to say, but I wasn't sure.

I was saying that in spite of the law I would seek retaliation because that's satisfying for me; it fulfills my need for vengeance if I believe justice won't be served. I don't know if I could live with myself if I didn't try to enact some kind of vengeance.

That's a high degree of self-knowledge; I'll grant you that. Personally I would like to *think* that I could forgive someone (er, no, not forgive exactly...but hold true to my belief that capital punishment is wrong) if they committed a crime against someone I loved. However, I can't say with certainty how I would react. It's entirely possible I'd feel like killing the perpetrator with my bare hands, particularly if I thought someone I loved dearly had suffered.

Can you clarify one thing - are you saying that you would seek retaliation "in spite of the law" under any circumstances - or only if the perp was not sentenced to death?

 

[fastpitch17]

I think that with the latest execution fiasco, the AG will now be replaced. He stepped on the Constitution and the Laws of Indonesia in his haste to execute. He was reported and being very worried about his job before the last Minister shake-up so kept the executions in the top of the news to help maintain his job of which his executions have been his only accomplishment. People are saying he's pretty scarred right now that the ax may finally fall and, well, it should have a long time ago if someone where to ask me.

 

[Anglian]

I think that with the latest execution fiasco, the AG will now be replaced. He stepped on the Constitution and the Laws of Indonesia in his haste to execute. He was reported and being very worried about his job before the last Minister shake-up so kept the executions in the top of the news to help maintain his job of which his executions have been his only accomplishment. People are saying he's pretty scarred right now that the ax may finally fall and, well, it should have a long time ago if someone where to ask me.

Perhaps the axe should fall on his neck for ilegal murder

 

[fastpitch17]

Perhaps the axe should fall on his neck for legal murder

Perhaps legal is not the proper word this time.

 

[Anglian]

Perhaps legal is not the proper word this time.

You are quite correct, now changed, perhaps falling on a sword would be a good idea

 

[fastpitch17]

The AG has apologized but explained...........nothing
http://en.tempo.co/read/news/2016/07/30/055791838/AG-Apologizes-for-Lack-of-Info-on-Executions

 

[Jamu]

I'm not for the death penalty, especially as applied in Indonesia. Murderers and child rapists typically receive only custodial sentences while those caught importing or exporting drugs are shot dead. There is no sense of proportionality.

 

[William King]

Observe the disconnect: DNA evidence is hailed as the holy grail of innocence yet not of guilt.

Nope, didnt say that.

You, also a non-scientist teacher, jump to the authority of Zai-ence! (with my best Austrian accent) to speak from authority when you're a lowly slob just like me.

You're jumping to erroneous assumptions there, Dan.

Proving that the perp was there is half the battle in prosecution. Finding their semen or their hair or their saliva or their skin and so on at the scene proves they were there, it can sometimes prove a relationship between the perp and the victim. Used in connection with the other evidence and it's a smoking gun, it becomes impossible to deny they committed the crime.

Much more accurate now, still not proof though.

You do not agree with state-sanctioned murder as you call it, but you agree with taking their time, caging them? Out of sight, out of mind. It becomes merely a problem you throw money at, a holding pen because you don't have any other answer with how to deal with

Interesting point, I had not considered that before.

However, I'm pretty certain the two Australian drug dealers murdered last year, had reformed in prison and were making other lives better. (within the context of the prison.)

 

[HappyMan]

One of the executed, Freddy, had given a statement saying he had paid off Indonesian officials to the tune of 500+ Billion over the course of his career as a drug kingpin. The man who wrote up the statement has now been charged with defamation. http://jakarta.coconuts.co/2016/08/...mation-after-he-reported-they-took-money-drug

 

[fastpitch17]

One of the executed, Freddy, had given a statement saying he had paid off Indonesian officials to the tune of 500+ Billion over the course of his career as a drug kingpin. The man who wrote up the statement has now been charged with defamation. http://jakarta.coconuts.co/2016/08/...mation-after-he-reported-they-took-money-drug

What did you expect. They are not going to investigate their own. Especially the high ups that were named. I believe the story. Everyone would have to with the amount of drugs controlled in and out of the prison system.

 

[William King]

One of the executed, Freddy, had given a statement saying he had paid off Indonesian officials to the tune of 500+ Billion over the course of his career as a drug kingpin. The man who wrote up the statement has now been charged with defamation. http://jakarta.coconuts.co/2016/08/...mation-after-he-reported-they-took-money-drug

Of.course he has....

 

[Bad_azz]

Of.course he has....

No surprise there then.