Shortage of 498,000 teachers in Indonesia next year?

[Balifrog]

This was in reply to posts about studying Arabic and how it is perceived by many persons that classroom hours and Indonesian education budgets might be better spent on languages such as English or Chinese.

That's it !

 

[Hawk256]

It is not the same since there is no central religious text which states that it was 'revealed' in 'clear English language' and that this was a 'divine choice' which 'must be preserved'. That would be ridiculous!

I was quoting the Quran in post #58 with regards to the use of Arabic.

This was in reply to posts about studying Arabic and how it is perceived by many persons that classroom hours and Indonesian education budgets might be better spent on languages such as English or Chinese.

If your post was meant to show how experts have identified almost 300 non-Arabic words in the Quran despite the Quran apparently contradicting itself by stating that it was 'revealed' in 'clear Arabic language' because there were loan words used...well, that is probably a better compromise than hard-liners would allow.

It doesn't contradict itself. I thought that was clearly explained. It was the language they used. All languages have borrowed words. You are being fecesisous.

 

[snpark]

. You are being fecesisous.

Facetious

The only word using all 5 vowels in their correct alphabetical order

 

[jstar]

And me thinking it was a loanword from sh!tty .

 

[Pak Tani]

...that is probably a better compromise than hard-liners would allow.

Actually, that is not a compromise but rather an opinion -among other opinions- which is pretty mainstream in Islam. It is very likely that in the pre-Islamic era Arabs, their culture and their language were influenced by other peoples they interacted with. So they likely adopted words from foreign languages and Arabized them and started using them in their language (Arabic). I don't think this is far fetched because this happened (and still happens) in many languages. To me this offers a plausible explanation for why someone can find Arabic words of foreign origin in the Quran without contradicting a verse that says that the Quran was reveiled in clear Arabic.
Just like the word 'cotton' from the example sentence in my earlier post (which was indeed not from a divine revelation, well noted!), despite that it has its origins in a different language with a different alphabet, it is a proper English word. And nobody would contest that. Ah well, maybe some would..

 

[Hawk256]

It doesn't contradict itself. I thought that was clearly explained. It was the language they used. All languages have borrowed words. You are being fecesisous.

I thought spellcheck fixed that. Oh well. I'm not going to edit it because it's funny.

 

[serious_fun]

Actually, that is not a compromise but rather an opinion -among other opinions- which is pretty mainstream in Islam. It is very likely that in the pre-Islamic era Arabs, their culture and their language were influenced by other peoples they interacted with. So they likely adopted words from foreign languages and Arabized them and started using them in their language (Arabic). I don't think this is far fetched because this happened (and still happens) in many languages. To me this offers a plausible explanation for why someone can find Arabic words of foreign origin in the Quran without contradicting a verse that says that the Quran was reveiled in clear Arabic.
Just like the word 'cotton' from the example sentence in my earlier post (which was indeed not from a divine revelation, well noted!), despite that it has its origins in a different language with a different alphabet, it is a proper English word. And nobody would contest that. Ah well, maybe some would..

I agree, and that's what my point was. I personally don't have an opinion on this issue...well, I do but it would be considered highly insulting to some, so I'll keep quiet.

The point was about spending HUGE amounts of classroom hours, energy, student stress, and large chunks of the education budget for Arabic language 'study' when the ROI is negligible (though difficult to measure directly). Teacher qualifications are another issue entirely.

 

[snpark]

Yeh all the backpackers in Bali don't want to be teachers now they discovered they can photograph a plate of rice and get $50 for posting it online

 

[Balifrog]

Yeh all the backpackers in Bali don't want to be teachers now they discovered they can photograph a plate of rice and get $50 for posting it online

It's called "a content creator" ....

 

[Helpful Herbert]

It's like when Trump says he 'loves the uneducated'. That is true even more in Indonesia. If politicians can focus on kids learning the Quran and not learning things that are actually useful and educational, then it makes it much easier for them to do all the corruption, because most people don't have the knowledge or intelligence to question them. The plan works very well.
Ahok was a threat to this plan, but this threat was neutralised rather effectively, and ironically using the same text.

 

[jstar]

.

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/18tUZojpdz/?mibextid=wwXIfr

Priorities….

.

 

[Hawk256]

It's like when Trump says he 'loves the uneducated'. That is true even more in Indonesia. If politicians can focus on kids learning the Quran and not learning things that are actually useful and educational, then it makes it much easier for them to do all the corruption, because most people don't have the knowledge or intelligence to question them. The plan works very well.
Ahok was a threat to this plan, but this threat was neutralised rather effectively, and ironically using the same text.

Seems like you have a chip on your shoulder with Islam. Learning the Quran has nothing to do with whether or not you are educated in other matters. The two have nothing to do with each other.

 

[jstar]

Of course they do. There are only so many hours in a week. And if you spend it all on -just to name something- learning and practicing maths then you probably will be weaker in languages.

Saw an interesting documentary about a blind Islam teacher. At the end he and his -also blind-wife were asked when the two (healthy) kids would be successful. The answer: If they can read and recite the Quran.

 

[Hawk256]

Of course they do. There are only so many hours in a week. And if you spend it all on -just to name something- learning and practicing maths then you probably will be weaker in languages.

Saw an interesting documentary about a blind Islam teacher. At the end he and his -also blind-wife were asked when the two (healthy) kids would be successful. The answer: If they can read and recite the Quran.

You can't learn Shakespeare and Mozart at the same time? Learning the Quran does not mean you learn nothing else in most cases.

 

[Pak Tani]

The point was about spending HUGE amounts of classroom hours, energy, student stress, and large chunks of the education budget for Arabic language 'study'

Looking at where the discussion is going, it would be interesting to get the actual numbers on these 'huge amounts of classroom hours' and the 'large chunks of the educational budget' spent on learning Arabic. Google wasn't very helpful to me, do you have any details on this?

 

[snpark]

If only this forum had a member who loved Google and copy paste chunks of Wikipedia and news sources.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

While a standard secular school in Indonesia typically offers just 2 to 3 hours of general religious education per week, a madrassah breaks Islamic studies down into five distinct, specialized subjects. This adds up to about 10 to 12 hours of religious and Arabic instruction per week, out of roughly 36 to 40 total instructional hours.

From Gemini

So they have a 20% handicap behind other kids, even before considering the very poor standard of non-religious teaching in madrassahs. Setting them up for a life of driving gojeks or similar.

 

[pantaiema]

While a standard secular school in Indonesia typically offers just 2 to 3 hours of general religious education per week, a madrassah breaks Islamic studies down into five distinct, specialized subjects. This adds up to about 10 to 12 hours of religious and Arabic instruction per week, out of roughly 36 to 40 total instructional hours.

From Gemini

So they have a 20% handicap behind other kids, even before considering the very poor standard of non-religious teaching in madrassahs. Setting them up for a life of driving gojeks or similar.

In general, the academic outcomes of students from these religious boarding schools tend to lag behind those of students from mainstream schools. This can often be observed in competitive entrance examinations for admission to leading public universities.

A similar pattern is seen in competitions for scholarships to study abroad, whether funded by the government or by international donors and universities.

They have advantage in term of political support but generally they are less competitive in academic merit. Typically when graduates of these institutions gain admission to prestigious public universities or receive certain state-funded scholarships, non-academic considerations or special political quota may play a role.

These students from these schools are often more visible in religiously motivated demonstrations and protest movements. 'Ahok' is a good example where such mobilisation can be achieved relatively easily through organised networks and modest incentives boxed lunch + Pocket money for transportation.

Given these concerns, I personally believe that public funding currently allocated to these boarding schools would be better directed toward strengthening mainstream education, including improving teacher quality, facilities and enhancing other educational resources.

If it is solely based on the student academic and competitive advantage needs, it is difficult to understand the need for the school children to learn Arabic rather than mastering more important foreign languages such as English, Chinese.

These issues regarding religious boarding schools have been debated previously in this forum, and various news reports and other sources have been cited as evidence in support of these arguments.

 

[Hawk256]

If it is solely based on the student academic and competitive advantage needs, it is difficult to understand the need for the school children to learn Arabic rather than mastering more important foreign languages such as English, Chinese.

In that case we need no more Egyptologists. The only job they can get is to teach other people how to be an Egyptologist. Would be much better for them to study something else.

 

[pantaiema]

In that case we need no more Egyptologists. The only job they can get is to teach other people how to be an Egyptologist. Would be much better for them to study something else.

Well, that is a completely different matter. Studying a language, culture, or another social science subject in order to become an expert, such as a linguistic expert, Egyptologist, or university professor in these subjects are very different from requiring schoolchildren to learn those subjects in their childhood. School students already face a heavy academic workload, and many do not achieve a good grasp even in a single foreign language by the time they graduate.

On the other hand, people who become linguistic experts or Egyptologists usually pursue those fields because they have a genuine interest in them. They can then apply their specialised knowledge professionally and earn a decent living from their expertise.

How many of these boarding school students actually go on to become lecturers, professors in linguistics, or Egyptologists? In reality, a significant number of them struggle even to earn a decent living. Some can be easily persuaded to join demonstrations, particularly over issues they perceive as blasphemous, in exchange for little more than a boxed lunch and some pocket money.