Big Improvement In West Java Schools

[Shadrach]

I referred to many of your posts (in other threads too) , not only that .

Baaa, Baaaa!

 

[pantaiema]

That's news to me; I couldn't find current data re: teachers' salary scales but found this site for lecturer salaries:

Professional Insights: Understanding Lecturer Salary and Allowances in Indonesia

I was under the impression that a local teacher in Indonesia would earn less than 5 juta to start...
Just a polite reminder that this thread is entitled "Big Improvement in West Java Schools".

You are right, a school teacher generally earns less than a lecturer. But also depend on their rank, serving term. However, becoming a teacher only requires a bachelor's degree, whereas a lecturer needs at least a master's degree and, in many cases, a terminal degree (PhD). To become a lecturer, you must be a top-tier graduate, conduct research, helping local industry through knowledge partnership, writing books, publish the result in academic journals, etc.

Here is the pay scale of all civil servant.

Daftar Gaji PNS dan PPPK 2024 Berdasarkan Golongannya

Pemerintah telah menaikkan gaji PNS dan PPPK tahun ini sebesar delapan persen. Berikut daftar gaji PNS dan PPPK terbaru 2024 berdasarkan golongannya.

www.cnnindonesia.com

A professor at a university (not a regular lecturer) falls under rank IVd or IVe and also receives additional allowances. As mentioned, all civil servants receive the same base salary based on their rank in the pay scale. This means a teacher (paid by the state) base pay is not less than an engineer, IT technician, doctor, or accountant if they are at the same rank as a civil servant. But remember in addition they also get a lot of allowances. Also, professionals like doctors, accountants, and IT engineers often earn extra income through private practice or freelance work outside their working hours.

Why would you say that? IMHO, Teaching is a unique career with unique demands and responsibilities.

I agree that teaching is a unique profession, but that doesn’t necessarily justify teachers being paid more than the military, police officers, engineers, nurses, firefighters, doctors, or accountants. This has been the stance of many, if not all, governments.
In other countries, do state-employed teachers earn more than professionals in other fields? Keep in mind that we are referring specifically to teachers paid by the government, not those in private institutions.
Speaking of private teachers, even in Indonesia, teachers at international schools can earn Rp 20 million or more, higher than what the Indonesian government pays a university professor. But at the same time there is a teacher in Indonesia get paid less than Rp2m as they are paid on hourly basis as supply teachers, not permanent basis in private school. However, that’s a separate discussion.

Why are you introducing that data? What does a welfare recipient in the "UK" have to do with teaching salaries in West Java? For your information, I never compared other countries to Indonesia; I stated, in so many words, that it would be highly beneficial for Indonesian youth and for the future of this country to have foreign teacher trainers work here and/or for Indonesian teachers to study overseas in order to acquire modern research-based teaching practices.

I bring this up to highlight that everything is relative. When discussing teachers' salaries in Indonesia, they should be compared to the pay scales of other professions within Indonesia, not to those in other countries like the UK.

This "basic law" ? The fact that 'a large number of young people aspire to become civil servants' tells us nothing about the caliber/standard/qualifications of the applicants. From what I've seen at local schools and at local government offices, the standard of the applicants must be low.

You contradict your own statement above that the teacher should get paid more as they are unique. That is a fundamental principle of economics, the supply and demand. More people are qualified to become teachers than lecturers, making it, there much higher supply than the demand that is why they get pay less than a lecturer. Keep in mind that becoming a university lecturer requires higher qualifications and being a top-tier graduate. The same applies to professions like doctors and accountants employed by the state, fewer people meet the required qualifications, making these roles more exclusive.

Just a polite reminder that this thread is entitled "Big Improvement in West Java Schools".

This topic is relevant as it relates to the significant improvements in West Java schools. It argues that unless fundamental issues are addressed, simply increasing salaries won’t necessarily enhance the quality of education. A prime example is corruption in teacher recruitment, promotions, and other areas, which has been discussed in previous topics. The salary is already increased significanlty even under the previous president, is there any noticable improvement ?

And just a friendly reminder who was the first to bring up teachers' salaries in this thread? (See below.)

Another huge issue is the low pay for teachers and university lecturers here in Indonesia, which ensures that intelligent and/or ambitious graduates will seek employment in other disciplines.

 

[pantaiema]

Here is a comparison of the average salaries of teachers and nurses. However, keep in mind that this data includes not only civil servant teachers but also those employed by private schools. And the link below is the salary for new doctor working as a civil servant in community heath centre or in the hospital, for instance.

https://www.inilah.com/gaji-dokter-di-indonesia-umum-spesialis-hingga-hewan

Generally it is about Rp3.594.889 they get from the government working as a civil servant in community health centre. The doctor salary has been discussed in the previous thread and how they earn more.
Who would logically believe that a teacher's salary should exceed that of a doctor?

n the doctor salary ??

 

[serious_fun]

pantaiema, discussing issues with you is always a bit frustrating since your arguments are all over the place...very scattered and often times (usually?) off topic. You introduce lots of tangential and peripheral information which only serves to muddy the waters.

I want qualified educators to be paid more, but I never stated that a teacher should be paid more than, for example, a licensed civil engineer. Nor have I ever compared teacher salary scales in Indonesia to salary scales in other countries, and if I did I would never include the amount that a welfare recipient receives in the 'UK'.

Lousy and unqualified staff pretending to be “teachers” or “administrators” at schools all across Indonesia are hurting the youth and, by extension, are severely limiting the nation’s future growth and power. The 'Middle Income Trap' awaits.

Salaries paid are only a part of the problem.

 

[pantaiema]

pantaiema, discussing issues with you is always a bit frustrating since your arguments are all over the place...very scattered and often times (usually?) off topic. You introduce lots of tangential and peripheral information which only serves to muddy the waters.

I want qualified educators to be paid more, but I never stated that a teacher should be paid more than, for example, a licensed civil engineer. Nor have I ever compared teacher salary scales in Indonesia to salary scales in other countries, and if I did I would never include the amount that a welfare recipient receives in the 'UK'.

Lousy and unqualified staff pretending to be “teachers” or “administrators” at schools all across Indonesia are hurting the youth and, by extension, are severely limiting the nation’s future growth and power. The 'Middle Income Trap' awaits.

Salaries paid are only a part of the problem.

I stated this and I prove it:
It is a common misconception that school teachers and university lecturers in Indonesia receive lower salaries in post #87. And also this

Frustration often arises when one person presents evidence, while the other clings to their desired view of the system, relying solely on limited knowledge without providing any supporting proof.

 

[pantaiema]

pantaiema,

I want qualified educators to be paid more, but I never stated that a teacher should be paid more than, for example, a licensed civil engineer. Nor have I ever compared teacher salary scales in Indonesia to salary scales in other countries, and if I did I would never include the amount that a welfare recipient receives in the 'UK'.

How is this considered a solution when teachers already receive salaries comparable to other professionals with similar qualifications? There is also a lot of people apply for teaching positions as civil servant, with many applicants but only a small percentage being accepted. Additionally, if teacher salaries are significantly increased, wages for other civil professions would also need to rise for the fairness to other professions. Also the private sectors that contribute to this profession will also need to raise the salary. They could only increase it to the level they could effort or otherwise the system will collapse. There are International schools, national plus schools aiming for the niche market paying salary higher than a professor paid by the state, but they are only a very tiny percentage. Not to mention free meals for school children has already taken a significant proportion of their budget.

pantaiema,

Lousy and unqualified staff pretending to be “teachers” or “administrators” at schools all across Indonesia are hurting the youth and, by extension, are severely limiting the nation’s future growth and power. The 'Middle Income Trap' awaits.

They are already selected from a vast pool based on supply and demand. Simply increasing pay without addressing core issues like corruption in recruitment, how they get their degree, teacher's training, professional development and working conditions will only attract more individuals to the profession, not because of talent or passion, but solely due to the financial incentive.

 

[Shadrach]

How is this considered a solution when teachers already receive salaries comparable to other professionals with similar qualifications? There is also a lot of people apply for teaching positions as civil servant, with many applicants but only a small percentage being accepted. Additionally, if teacher salaries are significantly increased, wages for other civil professions would also need to rise for the fairness to other professions. Also the private sectors that contribute to this profession will also need to raise the salary. They could only increase it to the level they could effort or otherwise the system will collapse. There are International schools, national plus schools aiming for the niche market paying salary higher than a professor paid by the state, but they are only a very tiny percentage. Not to mention free meals for school children has already taken a significant proportion of their budget.


They are already selected from a vast pool based on supply and demand. Simply increasing pay without addressing core issues like corruption in recruitment, how they get their degree, teacher's training, professional development and working conditions will only attract more individuals to the profession, not because of talent or passion, but solely due to the financial incentive.

Now ya'll are just squabbling like an old married couple, over salaries for the adults, losing the point of this topic! The betterment of the education system of West Java schools! And All Indonesian Schools!
It's the children that should be the focus of this discussion! The whole point of better salaries, is to give the Teachers more of an incentive to better educate the Kids. As someone also mentioned the Teachers need better training to be able to do a better job.
The salaries of other civil servants is another topic.
If that means bringing in Foreign Professors to train the Professors here, so that in due time the Foreign professors can leave, and the Indonesian Professors can do a better job training the Teachers, then Do It!
Hell if the System was Smart, it would pay all of them better! And improve the school infrastructure, and provide up to date books, Free!
Then Indonesian Children would become better educated and become more Intelligent Adults, that would become the workforce and improve the conditions and develop smarter, more efficient ways methods for production and bring Indonesia, out of being a Third World Country
This could all be done if, the people would focus on improving the situation now, which would improve the Future situation to come!

 

[pantaiema]

Now ya'll are just squabbling like an old married couple, over salaries for the adults, losing the point of this topic! The betterment of the education system of West Java schools! And All Indonesian Schools!
It's the children that should be the focus of this discussion! The whole point of better salaries, is to give the Teachers more of an incentive to better educate the Kids. As someone also mentioned the Teachers need better training to be able to do a better job.
The salaries of other civil servants is another topic.
If that means bringing in Foreign Professors to train the Professors here, so that in due time the Foreign professors can leave, and the Indonesian Professors can do a better job training the Teachers, then Do It!
Hell if the System was Smart, it would pay all of them better! And improve the school infrastructure, and provide up to date books, Free!
Then Indonesian Children would become better educated and become more Intelligent Adults, that would become the workforce and improve the conditions and develop smarter, more efficient ways methods for production and bring Indonesia, out of being a Third World Country
This could all be done if, the people would focus on improving the situation now, which would improve the Future situation to come!

Did you read the entire thread? Who was the first person to bring up the issue of teachers' pay in this discussion?.

This one first

And then this one comes later

When discussing teachers' pay, it can not be isolated with the pay of other profession with similar qualifications; otherwise, a bigger issue may arise. This approach has been adopted by many, if not all, nations.

Speaking of straying from the main discussion, losing the point of this topic! what about people are writing, commenting on completely unrelated topics like Mosque, Quran, Hadith, prophet and prayer times in this thread?

 

[Shadrach]

Did you read the entire thread? Who was the first person to bring up the issue of teachers' pay in this discussion?.

This one first
View attachment 4640
And then this comes later
View attachment 4641
When discussing teachers' pay, it should be compared to other professions with similar qualifications; otherwise, a bigger issue may arise. This approach has been adopted by many, if not all, nations.

Yes I read that, So? And people keep going over this subject back and forth. So pay them all better, and get to better Educating the Kids!

 

[fastpitch17]

Speaking of straying from the main discussion, losing the point of this topic! what about people are writing, commenting on completely unrelated topics like Mosque, Quran, Hadith, prophet and prayer times in this thread?

Actually, those items besides maybe prayer times have a very large influence on Indonesia's education system. Maybe even prayer times if students have to wake in the early hours if the morning thus interrupting necessary sleep needs. Sure, pay the teachers more. As soon as they satisfactory complete additional training to bring them into the current student development times.

 

[Shadrach]

Actually, those items besides maybe prayer times have a very large influence on Indonesia's education system. Maybe even prayer times if students have to wake in the early hours if the morning thus interrupting necessary sleep needs. Sure, pay the teachers more. As soon as they satisfactory complete additional training to bring them into the current student development times.

That part about waking kids up at 4:30 AM is a good point. Kids need more sleep and Nutrition, than Adults, Also because their Brains, and Bodies are still developing. I think it is better to keep Church and Schools, and Government, separate.
A good example is there are Students with different Religions. So it's better to keep the Schools focused on basic Education. ( Math, Writing, Reading, Language, Science,) As you see I left out (History), because From what I've seen. The History lessons are altered to go along with the what the Government wants the people to believe. Not necessarily the Truth!
And Religion taught at the People's homes and Religious institutions. So there is no conflict of interest!