Wife divorced me in secret. How to prove it?

[Samoerai]

If you officially got married in the UK why can't you do the divorce in the UK as well? I'm sure it would be a lot easier than trying to do it in Indonesia.
I'm not sure if it is even legal to get married twice to the same person in different countries, because you must have lied on your second marriage application by saying you were not previously married, although that is a different question.

Ya Allah ... full circle ... see post #9.

 

[El_Goretto]

Ok so you are married in both Indonesia and UK and from what you mentioned these 2 mariages are not connected, they are basically 2 mariages.

There is already a divorce in place for your mariage in Indonesia but this mariage is not registered in the UK:

• so first, I don't see how you could divorce again if there is already a divorce in place. But it's Indonesia so anything is possible.
• but second, if that marriage was not registered in the UK, I don't see how the British embassy can accept the Indonesian divorce to enforce the divorce of your UK mariage.

To me, if the Indonesian mariage was never registered in the UK but you actually had another mariage in the UK, then you need to divorce from your UK mariage. It's not ideal but that seems like the most logical way. If you go through all the troubles of getting a divorce letter of your Indonesian mariage only to be told that it's not recognized because never registered, you might be wasting time to end up in the same position anyway.

 

[jstar]

Yep, just assume the British version as the only one. You also don’t want to go into polygamy discussions (which it theoretically could/would be).

 

[Mr Derek]

If you officially got married in the UK why can't you do the divorce in the UK as well? I'm sure it would be a lot easier than trying to do it in Indonesia.
I'm not sure if it is even legal to get married twice to the same person in different countries, because you must have lied on your second marriage application by saying you were not previously married, although that is a different question.

It was necessary to remarry in the UK because the Indonesian ceremony we had is apparently not in itself enough to allow an Indonesian to live in the UK. We had no choice about it.

As mentioned, to get a divorce in the UK requires you to live there for at least six months before the courts can deal with it - that's just the law - and I have no desire to ever see the place again. There would also be the expense, and in effect I would be terminating a marriage that has already been legally terminated so perhaps the UK court might even refuse to hear it unless I omitted to mention the 'secret' divorce. Seems sensible to at least make efforts in good faith to get hold of the existing divorce certificate, as irksome as that run-around may be. Would be very useful to hear from someone with experience of dealing with the Kantor Urusan Agama.

 

[Mr Derek]

Ok so you are married in both Indonesia and UK and from what you mentioned these 2 mariages are not connected, they are basically 2 mariages.

There is already a divorce in place for your mariage in Indonesia but this mariage is not registered in the UK:

• so first, I don't see how you could divorce again if there is already a divorce in place. But it's Indonesia so anything is possible.
• but second, if that marriage was not registered in the UK, I don't see how the British embassy can accept the Indonesian divorce to enforce the divorce of your UK mariage.

To me, if the Indonesian mariage was never registered in the UK but you actually had another mariage in the UK, then you need to divorce from your UK mariage. It's not ideal but that seems like the most logical way. If you go through all the troubles of getting a divorce letter of your Indonesian mariage only to be told that it's not recognized because never registered, you might be wasting time to end up in the same position anyway.

I admit it's a weird case, but none of those assumptions are correct, as far as my understanding goes.

It's two ceremonies and two legal systems, but the same marriage (between the same two people). The legality - presumably by international convention - is that termination in one country automatically terminates the same marriage in another. That was the emphatic information given to me by a UK lawyer recently so getting hold of the Indonesian divorce certificate is the simplest expedient.

The British embassy is I think simply a middleman that gets the legal clearance from the UK.

 

[Mr Derek]

Yep, just assume the British version as the only one. You also don’t want to go into polygamy discussions (which it theoretically could/would be).

I'm not contesting the divorce she got, which is valid in Indonesia and in itself terminates the UK marriage, as mentioned, so there's no polygamy issue.
If I pretend that the Indonesian marriage/divorce doesn't exist and the UK marriage is the only valid one then I would have to go back to the UK for six months to get an unnecessary second divorce for the same marriage - and as I've already said, that is not an option. At least not until I've tried to get the certificate from the Indonesian 'records office', which is really what I'm enquiring about here.

 

[Samoerai]

It was necessary to remarry in the UK because the Indonesian ceremony we had is apparently not in itself enough to allow an Indonesian to live in the UK. We had no choice about it.

Huh, your muslim marriage in Indonesia was not recognized in the UK? Interesting.

 

[El_Goretto]

I admit it's a weird case, but none of those assumptions are correct, as far as my understanding goes.

It's two ceremonies and two legal systems, but the same marriage (between the same two people). The legality - presumably by international convention - is that termination in one country automatically terminates the same marriage in another. That was the emphatic information given to me by a UK lawyer recently so getting hold of the Indonesian divorce certificate is the simplest expedient.

The British embassy is I think simply a middleman that gets the legal clearance from the UK.

I won't pretend to know better than a UK lawyer. If they say so, then that's probably your safest bet.

It's a bit of finding a needle in a haystack but hopefully you will strike luck and get that document.

My othet question is: if they didn't recognise your Indonesian marriage in the first place, why would they recognize your Indonesian divorce? Seems like there is a contradiction.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Perhaps it was a nikah siri. Any official Indonesian marriage that follows Indonesian law would be recognised in the UK.

 

[Samoerai]

Perhaps it was a nikah siri. Any official Indonesian marriage that follows Indonesian law would be recognised in the UK.

If so ... is he legally married in Indonesia?

 

[Mr Derek]

I won't pretend to know better than a UK lawyer. If they say so, then that's probably your safest bet.

It's a bit of finding a needle in a haystack but hopefully you will strike luck and get that document.

My othet question is: if they didn't recognise your Indonesian marriage in the first place, why would they recognize your Indonesian divorce? Seems like there is a contradiction.

Agreed that it seems like a contradiction. The answer, I think, is that it is recognised in the UK as a legal marriage, but is insufficient for immigration (settlement) purposes. I don't know why that is. The law is an ass, as we know.

 

[Mr Derek]

Perhaps it was a nikah siri. Any official Indonesian marriage that follows Indonesian law would be recognised in the UK.

It wasn't a nikah siri, which I think is a kind of DIY thing. It was officially registered with the KUA and comes with a green Buku Nikah. Still not good enough for settlement in the UK though - perhaps simply because it is a Muslim ceremony and such a thing may have seemed too alien back in the early 90s. Maybe UK law has changed in this regard since then.

 

[Mr Derek]

By the way, talking about the world changing... did anyone else notice how much Indonesian society changed after 9/11? The trend was towards secularism until then, and then it suddenly reversed gear.
I think that was a big part of the problem.

 

[Bob]

By the way, talking about the world changing... did anyone else notice how much Indonesian society changed after 9/11? The trend was towards secularism until then, and then it suddenly reversed gear.
I think that was a big part of the problem.

I think it the change started a few years before, during the monetary crisis and then the change of leadership. Things here got very unsettled, which led many to get closer to religion. Others took advantage of that.

 

[John indonesia]

I talked to a friend about this the other day. It appears a wife may divorce a husband legally if he has abandoned her for whatever length of time the law says.
Assuming that is correct, that takes care of the Indonesian side.
I have no idea about the situation he faces under UK law. If she has remarried, a divorce for adultery?

 

[jstar]

the law says

It all depends what ‘law’ applies. There is a civil law, religious (in this case Islamic) and even adat, a cultural and region based set of rules.

 

[John indonesia]

It all depends what ‘law’ applies. There is a civil law, religious (in this case Islamic) and even adat, a cultural and region based set of rules.

He said it was an Islamic service. Assuming the limited info I was given is correct, Islamic rules of abandonment will apply.
I suppose it's a google job but I understand the Islamic courts have an internet database so he might be able to search for his name.

 

[jstar]

Come on, practically everybody knows that period is 4 months in Islamic law. But you made a generic remark (”the law says”) which makes it very obvious -again- you don’t get the nuances here in this society and you did not specify what ‘your friend’ is or said.

 

[fastpitch17]

Come on, practically everybody knows that period is 4 months in Islamic law. But you made a generic remark (”the law says”) which makes it very obvious -again- you don’t get the nuances here in this society and you did not specify what ‘your friend’ is or said.

Maybe he should just ask the Thai girlfriend. I bet she could come up with a way around all this. For a cost of course.

 

[John indonesia]

Come on, practically everybody knows that period is 4 months in Islamic law. But you made a generic remark (”the law says”) which makes it very obvious -again- you don’t get the nuances here in this society and you did not specify what ‘your friend’ is or said.

I know very little on the subject so I would have to google.
It's lovely if you're an expert