YOU shall not pass.

Euc-

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Different circumstances, but those specific Grab drivers can go penetrate themselves. (side note: I like and occasionally use Grab, Uber, & Go-Jek, but any company that gets big enough will have some bad apples in its barrel).
As a general note for those on this thread who either explicitly or implicitly approve of mob violence: My home country also went through a period of mob violence. History does not look kindly on the perpetrators of said violence or their supporters.

Different circumstances, but pretty much same end result.
 

atlantis

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As for elevating the status of RT to that of a "god", I seem to recall somebody saying that the objections to weddings blocking the road should be expressed to the (apparently "lowest echelon in the local government") RT/RW because the RT/RW was the one who approved the road closure... Hmm, who said that?
Furthermore, I accept that you have conceded that it is not only foreigners who object to the inconvenience of these "traditions". Thank you for admitting as much. I never claimed to have a majority or even sizable minority opinion, but I do object to your characterization that only foreigners object to these so-called "religious ceremonies" blocking roads.
Either you enjoy twisting words of others or you simply can't read.
I indeed said that any complain should be directed at Pak RT. You said that Pak RT was owning the "party house"and therefore implied that you could not lodge a complaint. I've provided you with the answer: Go to the higher level. pak Rt is the first one you should complain to and, if you believe that PakRT is involved in any nefarious activity you have the resource to go higher up.

Your "I accept that you have conceded that it is not only foreigners who object to the inconvenience" is disingenuous.

I repeatedly said that any complain should be directed to the RT and never said that ONLY bule object to this. You very conveniently avoided to paste the full paragraph. I said:
"So, yes I believe that preserving this tradition, which lightly impact traffic and costs a few precious minutes of a bule life when it can help whole families to overcome the death of a loved one, is not a detriment to public at large. Let's face it: who, other than a bule, would have the idea to horn during a religious ceremony or enter in a masjid to unplug a speaker during al fajr?"

Few Indonesian may object to these ceremonies, and if they do, they would do it the proper way. Only a bule, excusable if fresh off the boat but definitely an idiot if he has spent a few years here already, would have the silly idea to honk his horn. An Indonesian would not do that, out of respect, but also because he knows how it may ends.

For the record, the "costs a few precious minutes of a bule life" in my above paragraph was a direct reference to YOU, certainly not a generalization about the foreigners/bule as a group. Only people like YOU could have this idea of honking their horn.


At least you have made my day:

the objections raised seem to have hit a nerve, and I am curious about why you seem so sensitive about the issue.
Remember me, who is moaning and kicking, honking a horn when he is delayed of a few minutes? And this is me who is "sensitive about the issue"? Love you, really.


I am not gonna waste any more time with you. Me and a few others, including your wife that you should trust, have explained you why you were rude and what may happen to you. But again, please continue to be an arse and honk your horn during ceremony.
 

atlantis

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As a general note for those on this thread who either explicitly or implicitly approve of mob violence:
Stop being a drama queen. No one "explicitly or implicitly approve of mob violence". We warn you what an inconsiderate and disrespectful attitude during a ceremony may earn you.
 

nd_eric_77

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Stop being a drama queen. No one "explicitly or implicitly approve of mob violence". We warn you what an inconsiderate and disrespectful attitude during a ceremony may earn you.
And yet you still have not addressed the issue of an RT clearly making his house and the public street in front of it into a wedding ceremony business... So tell me, do you consider it an acceptable tradition to keep expropriating public thoroughfares for private profit in such a manner?

"And yet it moves"
-Galileo
 

nd_eric_77

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Either you enjoy twisting words of others or you simply can't read.
I indeed said that any complain should be directed at Pak RT. You said that Pak RT was owning the "party house"and therefore implied that you could not lodge a complaint. I've provided you with the answer: Go to the higher level. pak Rt is the first one you should complain to and, if you believe that PakRT is involved in any nefarious activity you have the resource to go higher up.

Your "I accept that you have conceded that it is not only foreigners who object to the inconvenience" is disingenuous.

I repeatedly said that any complain should be directed to the RT and never said that ONLY bule object to this. You very conveniently avoided to paste the full paragraph. I said:
"So, yes I believe that preserving this tradition, which lightly impact traffic and costs a few precious minutes of a bule life when it can help whole families to overcome the death of a loved one, is not a detriment to public at large. Let's face it: who, other than a bule, would have the idea to horn during a religious ceremony or enter in a masjid to unplug a speaker during al fajr?"

Few Indonesian may object to these ceremonies, and if they do, they would do it the proper way. Only a bule, excusable if fresh off the boat but definitely an idiot if he has spent a few years here already, would have the silly idea to honk his horn. An Indonesian would not do that, out of respect, but also because he knows how it may ends.

For the record, the "costs a few precious minutes of a bule life" in my above paragraph was a direct reference to YOU, certainly not a generalization about the foreigners/bule as a group. Only people like YOU could have this idea of honking their horn.


At least you have made my day:


Remember me, who is moaning and kicking, honking a horn when he is delayed of a few minutes? And this is me who is "sensitive about the issue"? Love you, really.


I am not gonna waste any more time with you. Me and a few others, including your wife that you should trust, have explained you why you were rude and what may happen to you. But again, please continue to be an arse and honk your horn during ceremony.
So in other words, yes, you do have a business interest in selling goods and/or services to "religious ceremonies" which occupy public streets? (Yet again, you have not answered a direct question.)
 

nd_eric_77

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I agree with Atlantis as the same would happen here in Bali where those ceremonies are authorised and, if you ignite the ire of the pecalang by honking horn etc., very few would have sympathy for your consequence.
It is THEIR tradition...
This is a textbook example of implicit approval of mob violence.
 

Davita

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Oh really... then tell me, do you consider mob violence to be acceptable or unacceptable?

I'm not here to answer your stupid questions. I offered a practical solution to why one shouldn't use a horn at a Balinese ceremony...as it may have consequence.
I suggest you behave yourself...you're now acting like a clown and losing credibility and respect for when you had intelligent, cohesive conversations......and debate.
 

nd_eric_77

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I'm not here to answer your stupid questions. I offered a practical solution to why one shouldn't use a horn at a Balinese ceremony...as it may have consequence.
I suggest you behave yourself...you're now acting like a clown and losing credibility and respect for when you had intelligent, cohesive conversations......and debate.
Non-responsive.
I have never said anything regarding Balinese ceremonies. My only objection is to when people add to Jakarta's reportedly worst-in-the-world traffic congestion. I have never even encountered a Balinese ceremony.
So, once again, do you consider mob violence acceptable? If it is not too much trouble, please begin your answer with a simple "Yes..." or "No...".
 

Davita

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Non-responsive.
I have never said anything regarding Balinese ceremonies. My only objection is to when people add to Jakarta's reportedly worst-in-the-world traffic congestion. I have never even encountered a Balinese ceremony.
So, once again, do you consider mob violence acceptable? If it is not too much trouble, please begin your answer with a simple "Yes..." or "No...".

You know what eric...you did quote me in post # 107.."I agree with Atlantis as the same would happen here in Bali where those ceremonies are authorised and, if you ignite the ire of the pecalang by honking horn etc., very few would have sympathy for your consequence.
It is THEIR tradition..."......
and that's why I replied.

However, I can see you do have a point...why should we bules, living in Indonesia, be subject to their tradition when we have much better ideas.
I'll be in Jakarta soon, as it's Nyepi in Bali which I avoid because of their ceremony, so maybe we can meet up somewhere and discuss. I hope you don't mind if I bring some of my Indonesian friends.... please name the time and place,
 
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tokektokek

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I would be pretty furious if some impatient idiot had honked his horn while me and my wife were in the middle of the road during our wedding ceremony. It would be a complete lack of respect, and if it was a bule doing the honking, I would suggest they return to their home country and don't come back
 

waarmstrong

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If the a corrupt PakRT is the issue, I believe the proper place to register a complaint has been noted. In a sense, the people involved in and enjoying the ceremony are no less blameless than those who have their path blocked. Not surprising that guests would respond to honking with the same impatient indignation directed at them by a honker. One has to be situationally clueless and culturally obtuse to be surprised by such a response.
 

Balifrog

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This is a textbook example of implicit approval of mob violence.

Nope, this is the consequence of stupid, arrogant behaviour !
I have lived in enough countries to know that as an "non native" one has to be very delicate when expressing some disagreement with local traditions , whatever those may be right or wrong.
A lot of locals (in any country) will only "tolerate" outsiders as long as they keep a rather low profile, and dont cause trouble.
If a bloody tourist was hitting his horn, during a 11 Nov memorial ceremony in my village in France,he would be told to F.O. back where he comes from. Now, we would not mob his car if he apologizes but if he went in a rant somebody would maybe "explain" him that it is very wrong to do so.
NB : Me also to avoid Nyepi, I just spend.that time in Java at my Missus house. Not that is really better consider 3 muezins in a 500m perimeter....
But I just adapt to waking up early !
 

steveandpenny

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Well yesterday I was biking down the coast to go snorkeling and just before a fishing village called tanawanko they were having a big funeral. It was on the only road that went north and south (No side streets) . On one side they had the body laid out , the pulpit, and seating for maybe 50 people . On the other side of the road they had 2 other areas set up with seating set for a few hundred more. Cars were parked on either side of the road making the 2 lanes into one lane. Of course traffic was a mess and the funeral hasn't even started.
For you who think, why have it there where traffic is going right though a funeral instead of moving it away to somewhere more peaceful, understand it' very important here to have the body laid out at there home for freinds and famliy to give their good byes at.
To us it seems crazy but to them it' part of life.
It only took 20 mins to get though it anyway ...it will take the family and freinds a lot longer.
 

Anglian

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Try and block those crazy motor cyclists leading the charge on a funeral procession and see what you get
 
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This tradition largely predates the modern paved motorways. If I speak to my wife, my mother in law or any elderly people I may meet I am very confident that they would tell me that the community has always paid respect to their dead and has always helped the family to overcome the loss by gathering to the house of the defunct.

We are not talking about 5 or 6 persons showing up, but whole kampungs coming to one place, which as most house in Indonesia, are not build to hold people by the hundreds or even the dozens. This, among other things, is one of the thing which helps Indonesian communities and families to remain unified and caring for each other.

During these ceremonies, not only people support each others emotionally, they also do it financially. Each people/family will leave an amplop to help pay for the ceremony (which often allows poor family to pay respect to their dead in a descent manner, thing they would perhaps not be able to otherwise). In their large majority, people help and support each others in Indonesia, unlike perhaps in the western world where you often hand up alone in similar circumstances. This money, for the poorest, may also help a widow and her sons/daughters to deal with the future when the bread winner is departed.

So, yes I believe that preserving this tradition, which lightly impact traffic and costs a few precious minutes of a bule life when it can help whole families to overcome the death of a loved one, is not a detriment to public at large. Let's face it: who, other than a bule, would have the idea to horn during a religious ceremony or enter in a masjid to unplug a speaker during al fajr?

Don't get me wrong, many are annoyed to have to waste two minutes to go through a maze of unknown lorong when one could go straight, but, in the aircon of their car they usually know why the road is blocked and how important the ceremony may be for those less fortunate than them. Thus, they don't horn, nor yell or loudly spit venom. Personally I just smile and, sometimes wave an hand and, to release the anger, mutter a quick inaudible "you fucking bitch/asshole, you couldn't die another day/somewhere else?" while keep smiling. Much better and safer than jumping on my horn, believe me.

I'd also like to kindly ask you to point me where in my previous post you have read that I may encourage or imply that one stay silent. You can always go to your RT/RW and, if you suffer any inconvenience, let them know. In my own experience it works very fine. One of my neighbor kicked the bucket a few years ago and for the empat puluh hari (or was it the one year ceremony?), the family organized a big gathering, totally blocking the road. It was a bit of an annoyment because it meant a loss of five minutes for any truck of us going out. It was a tanggal merah but we were working. Despite saying to my guys to put rocks in front of the warehouse gate so that no one park in front of the gate and block the access/exit, they forgot to do it and, with no surprise, two cars blocked our gate. I went to the ceremony, spotted the pala (the equivalent of RW here) and kindly ask him to inquire who the owners of the cars were. It took a good 20 minutes but he finally found them in a crowd of 200+ people.

Comparing (putting on a similar level) your loss of 3 minutes of your time in traffic with female genital mutilation and corruption? Really? Were you serious?

Whenever I am in an area where I don't know all the lorongs I just approach any of the guys who help to direct the traffic and ask what is the easiest way for me to get back to my direction. So far I had only very positive reactions with even one time a guy escorting me on a motorbike he borrowed to show me the way.

I have tried to have my wife promising me that, when it will be time for me, she would not hold such ceremony with a thousand people coming to shake my relatives hand (and plunder our food stock), half of them or more being unknown of me. I failed. She told me she wouldn't be able to and that even if I would put it in writing, no one would believe that I refused to my family the departing ceremony and to let them (and the invited crowd) paying respect to me. I just managed to get a promise that they would not patrol in convoy the whole city to my final resting place. I asked for a cremation and my ashes to be scattered in one of our land in front of the house so I shouldn't be a burden for the traffic.
 

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