Working remotely on a Spouse Kitas for a foreign company

harmonykorine

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@snpark facebook likes nonsense aside, thanks for the reply.

@dafluff That is also what I think, given the fact that a Spouse kitas allows you to have some type of work under certain conditions.

I'll also mention at the immigration that other reasons for me to stay in Indonesia for 6 months are learning the language and Islam, besides taking care of all the process of getting married. Will also stay in Japan longer than expected, 1-2 months before returning to Jakarta.
 

R Cameron

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other reasons for me to stay in Indonesia for 6 months are learning the language and Islam
That's actually quite brilliant, definitely do that. Ask them also if you're allowed to take a Bahasa Indonesia language class (course/"kursus", not university/"kuliah").
 

Helpful Herbert

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Yes that is a brilliant answer. Another thing to add is that you would like to research different types of Indonesian food and cooking, and maybe once you are married you would like to open a small Indonesian restaurant with your wife.
 

Jamu

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Technically one becomes an Indonesian tax resident by spending at least 183 days in any twelve month period (doesn't all have to be in the same calendar year). So, there may be a theoretical tax issue if you aren't very careful with how many days you actually spend in Indonesia. The challenge is that you will probably not be able to get a tax number (NPWP) so that you can file for tax since you don't have a residency permit. It's a situation where the tax and immigration laws have not yet caught up with the reality of how many people live and work these days, so-called digital nomads being a case in point. For now I reckon you'd easily fly under the radar and have no real problems as the government has far bigger fish to fry...
 

jstar

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Thing with the '"grey area" is that whenever an immigration officer, for whatever reason, decides to interprete the law a certain way, you're done.
Yep, like this...


And remember this one? They proclaimed proudly they went ‘undercover’. Wow ?



Now obviously working remotely for a foreign entity out of your house/hotel is very far under the radar....
 

harmonykorine

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@Jamu,

That information is very important for me, thank you so much. In other words, there's a limit of days anyone can stay in Indonesia as a tourist. I didn't know that until know. This means that, after spending 6 months in Indonesia and 1 month in Japan, I'll become a taxpayer as soon as I return to Indonesia as I will fall into this category:

Resident taxpayers are defined as individuals who:
• are domiciled in Indonesia; or
stay in Indonesia for more than 183 days in any 12-month period; or
• are present in Indonesia during a tax year and intending to reside in Indonesia.
I think you mentioned that I couldn't get a NPWP as I don't have a domicile permit. Isn't that connected with the first condition of beeing domiciled in Indonesia? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm currently following this guide:

https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/id/Documents/tax/id-tax-indonesia-individual-tax-guide-2015-noexp.pdf

That should be my first step as soon as I return to Indonesia?

From what I understand, the following step should be to fill one of these forms:

The forms are called Form 1770 (for resident taxpayers with business income), Form 1770-S (for resident taxpayers who receive income from employment and other income), and Form 1770-SS (for resident taxpayers with annual gross income not exceeding IDR 60 millions).
Which for me would be Form 1770-S.

As for the payment:

Resident taxpayers may need to pay monthly tax instalment/tax prepayment (“Article 25 Income Tax”), the amount of which is to be calculated when the annual income tax due is calculated and to be reported in the annual income tax return.
I just got lost after searching more information on this. I'm using this as my source, but I'm not sure even sure if my case is even connected to 1.6 - Internation Taxation.

https://home.kpmg/content/dam/kpmg/xx/pdf/2018/09/indonesia-2018.pdf

This definately changes the circunstances as, even on a Spouse Kitas, I would have to pay the tax, right? Not that I see it as a problem, but I must get clear information in order to do things correctly.
I'll go to my local embassy soon and ask for more info.
 

harmonykorine

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After searching a bit more, I'll have to keep paying for the tax in my country but also have to pay for an additional tax in Indonesia. This happens in case I don't change my country's residency permanentely. Then I guess I would have that double taxation relief as my country is on the list.

I'm not sure which steps my company must take in order to do things correctly or even if I must open a bank account in Indonesia to get my salary (at this point, I guess yes), plus all the specific politics that might change from one country to another.

This doesn't seem impossible on a Spouse Kitas, but more complex than I thought. Going to the indonesian embassy as soon as possible.
 

Jamu

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@harmonykorine, the reason I say you likely won't be able to get an NPWP is that the authorities generally don't issue one to someone who is not supposed to be working in Indonesia (according to their view). Even though all persons must file and declare assets and worldwide income if they are deemed to be tax resident in Indonesia, the tax authorities reportedly have a practice of not issuing NPWP to foreign, wanna be tax payers unless they are officially employed in Indonesia. This is clearly wrong and directly at odds with the tax code, but it's the current reality. Of course you can still try to get NPWP, but don't be surprised if you are turned away or told 'no need'...
 

Helpful Herbert

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I'm not sure which steps my company must take in order to do things correctly or even if I must open a bank account in Indonesia to get my salary (at this point, I guess yes), plus all the specific politics that might change from one country to another.
There's no particular need to open a bank account in Indonesia if your salary could be paid elsewhere. Also quite a few banks wouldn't let you if you don't have a NPWP.
 

R Cameron

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There's no particular need to open a bank account in Indonesia if your salary could be paid elsewhere. Also quite a few banks wouldn't let you if you don't have a NPWP.
Yes, I have seen some expats with foreign income go years without a local account, simply using their foreign credit cards and ATM cash withdrawals.
 

harmonykorine

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I just checked that thead. This subject is adding yet another level of confusion to my situation :LOL:

Let me see if I can recap this...

-Working for a company based outside Indonesia is risky but possible if I keep low profile as no one can monitor wtv I'm doing on my laptop at home;
-On a Spouse Kitas, I am still not able to get any job in Indonesia without a work permit;
-Article 61 of the Immigration Law (UU 6/2011) stipulates that ANY holder of an ITAS or an ITAP sponsored by an Indonesian spouse (ie: suami atau istri) may work and/or do business in order to satisfy his/her living needs and/or his/her family living needs, which would make it fine for me to work for a company based outside Indonesia;
-I'll become a taxpayer for staying more than 183 days in Indonesia, but can't pay any tax because I don't have a NPWP for not working in Indonesia.

Any law should be something very clear and easy to understand. It doesn't make me feel any safe thatmy situation must depend on some officer's interpretation of the law. That Article 61 could make my situation fine, or not, but I don't want to have to debate it with anyone anyway. Already asked my gf to get more information directly from a tax office in Jakarta.

I was reading that thread and the conclusion I got is that they can change anything at any time. All in all, I've no idea how any foreigner can marry an indonesian and make a living in Indonesia without beeing rich to open a business or having so many years of exp to become a team leader in some huge company. Any other source of income might become a problem or not, sometimes depending on someone's interpretation. Just stupid.

At this point I've decided that I won't stay in Indonesia for 6 months as it could fucking trigger someone. 2 months in Indonesia+1 month somewhere else like Malaysia and repeat this until we get married as soon as possible to either stay in Indonesia with her or bring her with me back to my country.
 

Jamu

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I just checked that thead. This subject is adding yet another level of confusion to my situation :LOL:

Let me see if I can recap this...

-Working for a company based outside Indonesia is risky but possible if I keep low profile as no one can monitor wtv I'm doing on my laptop at home;
-On a Spouse Kitas, I am still not able to get any job in Indonesia without a work permit;
-Article 61 of the Immigration Law (UU 6/2011) stipulates that ANY holder of an ITAS or an ITAP sponsored by an Indonesian spouse (ie: suami atau istri) may work and/or do business in order to satisfy his/her living needs and/or his/her family living needs, which would make it fine for me to work for a company based outside Indonesia;
-I'll become a taxpayer for staying more than 183 days in Indonesia, but can't pay any tax because I don't have a NPWP for not working in Indonesia.

Any law should be something very clear and easy to understand. It doesn't make me feel any safe thatmy situation must depend on some officer's interpretation of the law. That Article 61 could make my situation fine, or not, but I don't want to have to debate it with anyone anyway. Already asked my gf to get more information directly from a tax office in Jakarta.

I was reading that thread and the conclusion I got is that they can change anything at any time. All in all, I've no idea how any foreigner can marry an indonesian and make a living in Indonesia without beeing rich to open a business or having so many years of exp to become a team leader in some huge company. Any other source of income might become a problem or not, sometimes depending on someone's interpretation. Just stupid.

At this point I've decided that I won't stay in Indonesia for 6 months as it could fucking trigger someone. 2 months in Indonesia+1 month somewhere else like Malaysia and repeat this until we get married as soon as possible to either stay in Indonesia with her or bring her with me back to my country.
Welcome to the wonderful world of Indonesia :ROFLMAO:. Seriously, to live happily in Indonesia one has to be ok with a certain amount of legal ambiguity. It's just the way things are.
 

Helpful Herbert

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Yes - "welcome to Indonesia" just about sums it up. If you do move here and get integrated with the culture you will see that there are also positive as well as negative things about having legally ambiguous situations. For people who like legal certainty as you would have in the West, it could be a stressful situation to live in if one maintains that mindset.
 

harmonykorine

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Update:

My gf asked the tax office if I would have to pay the tax in case I spend more 183 days in Indonesia as a tourist (with income from outside the country). This was their reply (translated from bahasa):

"Every taxpayer who has met the subjective and objective requirements in accordance with the provisions of the legislation in the field of taxation is obliged to register with the Tax Office whose working area covers the residence or domicile of the Taxpayer and to the Taxpayer is subject to NPWP. Subjective requirements of the domestic tax subject are : an individual residing in Indonesia, an individual residing in Indonesia for more than 183 (one hundred eighty-three) days within a period of 12 (twelve) months, or an individual who within a tax year is in Indonesia and has the intention to residing in Indonesia; the objective requirements for receiving or obtaining income in accordance with Article 4 paragraph 1 of Law number 36 of 2008 Based on the information you provided, the foreigners only meet the Subjective requirements so that they are not required to have a TIN (taxpayer identification number)".

tldr: only foreigners employed in Indonesia have a TIN and must pay the tax.

Next time, she will ask the tax office if I can work remotely from home on a Spouse Kitas by bringing up that useless Article 61.
 

dafluff

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That is very interesting. Reading the Article they cited (English | Indonesian) I would not expect that interpretation.
Lol, article 4 specifically states:

Yang menjadi objek pajak adalah penghasilan, yaitu setiap tambahan kemampuan ekonomis yang diterima atau diperoleh Wajib Pajak, baik yang berasal dari Indonesia maupun dari luar Indonesia, yang dapat dipakai untuk konsumsi atau untuk menambah kekayaan Wajib Pajak yang bersangkutan, dengan nama dan dalam bentuk apa pun...

Translation:

The object of the tax is income, that is, any additional economic capability received or obtained by the Taxpayer, both originating from Indonesia and from outside Indonesia, which can be used for consumption or to add to the wealth of the Taxpayer concerned, by name and in whatever form ...

Totally off topic: I was lazy and did the translation via google, and damn, they are really good now. It's basically perfect.
 

Helpful Herbert

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It seems the tax office is interpreting that as.. money received by someone employed by an Indonesian entity, whether or not the money comes from inside or outside Indonesia. So let's say an employee of Garuda is seconded to Singapore, the income from outside (ie the work in Singapore) is still covered by this law. But if a person (such as harmonykorine) has no taxpayer status to begin with, then they are not required to have a TIN (hence cannot pay tax).

Not sure this is a correct interpretation, but if that is how they interpret it, then I guess that's the end of discussion.
 

jstar

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Instead of calling the interpretation interesting, I would rather call it incompetent. Or driven by laziness.
 

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