Working remotely on a Spouse Kitas for a foreign company

dafluff

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It seems the tax office is interpreting that as.. money received by someone employed by an Indonesian entity, whether or not the money comes from inside or outside Indonesia. So let's say an employee of Garuda is seconded to Singapore, the income from outside (ie the work in Singapore) is still covered by this law. But if a person (such as harmonykorine) has no taxpayer status to begin with, then they are not required to have a TIN (hence cannot pay tax).

Not sure this is a correct interpretation, but if that is how they interpret it, then I guess that's the end of discussion.
But apparently not all of them interpret it that way. Recently it was reported in this forum that people got in trouble for not reporting rental income obtained abroad:

I know a friend who got "caught" by the Indonesian tax authorities for income on rental properties they own outside of Indonesia. It happened last year - they had to pay a fine and this year they are paying Indonesian tax on their "worldwide" income (not just Indonesian income).
Again it seems that legal certainty is hard to obtain in Indonesia...
 

R Cameron

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Not sure this is a correct interpretation, but if that is how they interpret it, then I guess that's the end of discussion.
If @harmonykorine has it in writing, I think that ends the discussion for him. However, others should seek the interpretation of their local Kantor Pajak, if they decide you owe taxes from abroad they won't care that someone online said that a different kantor pajak said they didn't have to.
 

Helpful Herbert

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But apparently not all of them interpret it that way. Recently it was reported in this forum that people got in trouble for not reporting rental income obtained abroad:



Again it seems that legal certainty is hard to obtain in Indonesia...
Actually that case, from what I remember, was someone employed by an Indonesian company, who had not been reporting foreign rental income
quote:[this year they are paying Indonesian tax on their "worldwide" income (not just Indonesian income)] .

So that would be entirely in keeping with this interpretation [ie you have to have an Indonesian employer to be eligible to pay tax]
 

harmonykorine

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If that couple had been working for an indonesian company then the law applies on them. They meet the subjective AND objective requirements.

This also applies for any indonesian citizen working both in an indonesian company and as a freelancer in his freetime for a company based outside Indonesia. Any income this person gets from outside will be taxed since this person also meets both requirements.

In my case, I won't need to pay any tax since I only meet one of the requirements. I'm not concerned about this tax thing anymore and it clearly doesn't apply to me.

Now my biggest concern is either I'm legit or not to have my kind of work under a Spouse Kitas. From what I got until now, it's even okay but risky on any visa as long as they don't catch you doing it in the act. I could stay home all day and no inspector could see if I'm playing videogames or working on something. I've seen some foreign sharing on YouTube his daily live in Bali and even the caffee where him and or digital nomads come to work.. That's so dumb and asking to get arrested.

But I don't wanna do anything that could put me in danger and wanna know if it's 100% fine to do this on a Spouse kitas. My gf contacted someone who works on immigration that she knows and he told her she should contact the the Statuskim dan ijin tinggal. Even this guy from immigration didn't know the answer which makes me feel like I'm in a very exclusive situation.

I'll give more updates soon.
 

Helpful Herbert

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I think it would be manpower (DEPNAKER) rather than immigration you should be asking. Immigration are happy if you do some work to support your wife (it is one of the questions at the KITAP interview), they don't care about work permits or tax. It is manpower who insists on the work permit (IMTA or whatever it is called now) - and since in your situation you can't get one, you can ask them if it is still OK to do some work from home.
 

harmonykorine

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Thanks for the info!

So not only this concerns the tax office and immigration, but also the manpower. And each of these can interpret the law in a different way. My gf will get in touch with that division I mentioned on my previous post and contac the manpower afterwards.

But yeah, I'll add it to my list:

-Working for a company based outside Indonesia is risky but possible if I keep low profile as no one can monitor wtv I'm doing on my laptop at home;
-On a Spouse Kitas, I am still not able to get any job in Indonesia without a work permit;
-Article 61 of the Immigration Law (UU 6/2011) stipulates that ANY holder of an ITAS or an ITAP sponsored by an Indonesian spouse (ie: suami atau istri) may work and/or do business in order to satisfy his/her living needs and/or his/her family living needs, which would make it fine for me to work for a company based outside Indonesia;
-I'll become a taxpayer for staying more than 183 days in Indonesia, but can't pay any tax because I don't have a NPWP for not working in Indonesia;
-Manpower ignores all the points listed above and insists on getting an IMTA, either I'm working in an Indonesian company or foreign company based outside Indonesia (this part needs to be clarified).
 

jstar

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Perhaps time to re-read this thread...

 

dafluff

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-Manpower ignores all the points listed above and insists on getting an IMTA, either I'm working in an Indonesian company or foreign company based outside Indonesia (this part needs to be clarified).
Manpower obviously has no jurisdiction for issuing IMTA to a company not in Indonesia. Remember, an IMTA is not a work permit. It is a permit for a company to employ a foreign worker. A person doesn't apply for an IMTA, a company based in Indonesia applies for an IMTA to employ a foreign worker.
 

R Cameron

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I will admit I could be wrong on this, but from everything I've seen Manpower Department is not relevant to this discussion.

As @dafluff points out, IMTA from Manpower is permission given to an Indonesian company to employ the foreigner. The only permission given to the individual is from Immigration in the form of a Working Visa.

A foreigner working illegally could be charged according to Immigration law, and the company illegally employing them could be charged according to Manpower law.
 

harmonykorine

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This one is, by far, the best guide I've read until now on the matter of immigrating to Indonesia and done by expert individuals who work on this field.

https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreut...tksHkI0Ui8XVr8k1bA1_zSI&firstPage=true&bhcp=1

It also refers to the conflits that exist between the laws of different departments. As such, I couldn't really come to a conclusion. However, what took my attention the most was this part concerning Dependents:

Entitlement to work
Dependants cannot work in Indonesia. Partners who seek to work in Indonesia must secure a work permit and a limited stay permit and are then no longer categorised as dependant.
Dependants are allowed to undertake the following:
  • Telecommuting, as long as the dependant does not work and/or receive salary or other remuneration inside Indonesia.
  • Actively operating their business as long as the business activities are not performed in Indonesia. If the company has business activities in Indonesia, the dependants need a work permit and limited stay permit
 

harmonykorine

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Got in contact with one of the individuals who created that guide. Didn't even expect to get any reply, especially on a Saturday.

This is what he shared with me:

"Based on Indonesian Immigration regulation, a Dependent Visa is for “Non-Working”.

The criteria of working in Indonesia is:

  1. Receive any income (salary or remuneration) from Indonesian company/employer;
  2. The activities are not related with Indonesian companies (your employer has clients in Indonesia and you support your employer for the projects in Indonesia).
If you really work remotely in Indonesia without having any meetings or support projects in Indonesia, then you are considered as Dependent and Non-Working in Indonesia."
"As long as you meet with the criteria, then you dont need a work permit in Indonesia.

Spouse is Dependent, so as long as you have an ITAS sponsored by your wife (spouse/dependent), then it is oke.

If you want to have meetings, please dont go to the office but you can have meetings at cafe or restaurant or hotel. This is to avoid any confusion with the officers if there is any audit."
This makes it 100% legal for me to work remotely as long as I'm married.
And my situation won't concern both tax office and manpower departments since I don't meet the criteria of working in Indonesia.
 

TiborD

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That is totally different, that is a genuine tourist here on a genuine holiday just doing some emails etc as opposed to these digital nomads who abuse a tourist visa to basically "live" here for years at a time and are primarily working here on vlogs, blogs etc and receiving income while there are here and often from Indonesian companies, hotels, businesses etc to "promote" Indonesian goods and services.
That is obviously a blatant and deliberate misuse and abuse of the VOA system

Open a company, get an IMTA and a tax number and be morally responsible
when finally will be over to this mess in Indonesia for expats living here legally and married to local people, i think once you are granted permit to live ,you should be granted permit to work .Indonesians living in our countries in europe , australia , usa where they can work immediatelly without need to make company , imta and another hassles,plus all visas are free,,,not equal treatment here !!! i dont even talk about freelancing which you cant legally do in indonesia without need to make middle size PT where you invest lots of money and after employ yourself as a director and pay again big money , just to make living,, its a human right to work and make a money for living for your family in the country where you are settled, no grey zones, no hiding behind wife's bussines etc,
 

Dominique

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Can you share similar stories?
[/QUOTE]

Good day,
In the series "similar stories", I met last year with a young lady -foreigner- who fell in love with an Indonesian. She was working remotely as you plan to although in a totally different field (I mean, she was not an engineer), and together with her boyfriend they travelled Indonesia for 9 months approximately, with visa runs out of the country for her whenever needed, until they got married in the end. I guess this is happening all the time, and personnally do not see how you could find yourself in trouble with such plan. The government will be strict and mercyless if you physically work on Indonesian soil for a company, registered or not in the country. As long as you don't receive Indonesian originated money for what you are doing, and as long as you are not physically involved into a professional activity in the country, you will just be another tourist falling in love with an Indonesian lady :)
Best of luck to you
 

Jamu

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Just wondering if @atlantis changed his view that those on a spouse kitas/kitap who wanted to work as provided by UU6 2011 Pasal 61 were not subject to the Manpower Law as they could not be considered TKA's as defined therein, or did he just get tired of banging his head against some of those here with contrary views?
 

jstar

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Bit bored, @Jamu ? Feel like trolling? Or you experienced one of your regular attacks to mix up practical experience and personal opinion again?

Nobody here, ever stated something contrary. Nobody here, ever said those foreigners on spousal visa not working for Indonesian companies should be considered TKA.

But ask any Indonesian lawyer, notary, or even manpower employee what they think a ‘foreigner working in their country’ is. I bet we would get close to 100% on a consistent answer.
 

Jamu

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W
Bit bored, @Jamu ? Feel like trolling? Or you experienced one of your regular attacks to mix up practical experience and personal opinion again?

Nobody here, ever stated something contrary. Nobody here, ever said those foreigners on spousal visa not working for Indonesian companies should be considered TKA.

But ask any Indonesian lawyer, notary, or even manpower employee what they think a ‘foreigner working in their country’ is. I bet we would get close to 100% on a consistent answer.
What, have you decided to become the resident jackass on this board? Unwarranted personal attacks like yours (and not for the first time) are a reason some people have left this forum or become inactive.

The ability of foreigners with spouse Kitas and Kitap being able to work is important to many living here in Indonesia and participating in this forum, so I don't see anything wrong with my query. I was simply asking the question as I recall Atlantis having a very articulate view on the issue quite some time ago. As he is one of the senior contributors here, and since I haven't heard anything new since then, I am wondering if the view has changed, or if there is any further insight on the matter based on his interactions with the authorities in Manado or his knowledge of other cases, situations, etc. And, yes there have been others on this forum with the view that you can 'only work in your wife's business' or you need IMTA under the Manpower Law, for example, so it's patently untrue that 'nobody here ever stated something to the contrary' to the view that Atlantis shared in his posts.

In any case you unsurprisingly have nothing intelligent to add to the matter, so why are you here?
 

jstar

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I really wonder why you try to stir the pot every time you show up. (Besides advertising for some FB group). You (try to) stigmatize certain members of this forum by putting words in their mouths. And when called out you move the goal posts and start insulting people (Jackass? Nothing intelligent? Chasing people away from this forum?). Very nice forum behavior, thanks.

Can you re-read this? Perhaps you -with your obviously superior intellect as you yourself allude to- can see the similarities and differences in statements:

they could not be considered TKA's as defined therein, or did he just get tired of banging his head against some of those here with contrary views?
Nobody here, ever stated something contrary. Nobody here, ever said those foreigners on spousal visa not working for Indonesian companies should be considered TKA.
And, yes there have been others on this forum with the view that you can 'only work in your wife's business' or you need IMTA under the Manpower Law, for example, so it's patently untrue that 'nobody here ever stated something to the contrary' to the view that Atlantis shared in his posts.
 

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