Vaccine effectiveness and Herd Immunity

[Dave70]

Produced by Merogenomics Inc., a company dedicated to enhancing access of clients worldwide to genomic sequencing education and technologies. This video discusses a new surprise discovery (yet to be confirmed by other scientists) that the SARS-CoV-2 full length spike protein can enter human cell nuclei and interfere with the mechanics of fixing of broken DNA damage. The authors of the study propose this might have been evolved in order to prevent the genetic recombination required to produce antibody varieties to successfully attack the virus. If true, then this could have important implications for potential negative health outcomes (another if!) and might require reconfiguration of vaccine design.


00:00 Dr Mikolaj Raszek, Phd from Merogenomics
00:09 The latest widest news in Molecular Microbiology
00:33 WHO? Swedish research shows spike protein enters nucleus in human cells (in vitro)
00:57 this is of course, biologically verboten (*German for STRICTLY FORBIDDEN)
01:04 WHAT? Discovery Spike protein inhibits proper fixing of broken DNA
01:18 Specifics: double stranded breaks where both strands are broken
01:33 HOW? Mechanism 1 suspected interference with BRCA1 gene product’s ability to repair DNA
01:48 Consequence: if BRCA1 is mutated though, then you have highest predisposition for Cancer development precisely because BRCA1 gene codes for proteins that fix DNA damage when sheared in half
02:14 Significance: Consequences are so great if true that it should be double checked, verified and reinvestigated
2:42 Call for a lot more studies: Revalidation
2:51 HOW? Mechanism 2 Spike also interferes with mysterious nuclear protein 53BP1 which may serve to prevent DNA breaks from re-ligating to other DNA sources ensuring 2 chromosomes don’t link together that aren’t supposed to.
4:21 HOW? Mechanism 3 Perhaps spike in Nuclei interferes with Immune cells’ mechanisms (eg.BRCA1 and 53BP1) and diversity of response to infections.
4:42 TAKEAWAY What if Spike protein evolved as a mutagen for DNA – what would implications be for a vaccine that’s primary focus was to produce Spike?
5:32 CONTEXT: Recent discovery that Spikes may circulate for months on end in Exosomes to different parts of the body and in theory enter cells well after the point of vaccination as COVID-19 mRNA vaccines update 16 discussed
06:15 CONTEXT: DNA gets 70k lesions/day /cell! But only 25 are double stranded shearing damages
07:25 IMPLICATIONS: So within this context, what are the chances circulating spike proteins could enter and damage DNA and predispose to cancer? In cancer, it takes months for damage to accumulate and cause symptoms. Therefore…
7:45 IMPLICATION: Vaccine Safety Are vaccines “SAFE”? What is vaccine “Safety”? Only Time can/will tell.
8:07 IMPLICATION: Yes, Vaccines don’t produce dangerous clinical symptoms in the first few months BUT we don’t know what they do in very long-term basis so can we call them safe?
8:34 HOW? Mechanism 4 Vaccines use FULL length of spike protein thus produces whole protein in body. Prior to vaccinations some scientists mentioned that FULL protein length of Spike protein was dangerous
9:16 IMPLICATION: Antibody Dependent Enhancement or ADE could occur with use of full length of Spike protein
10:27: AUTHORS’ RECOMMENDATION: Not to use full length of spike protein but only the Receptor Binding Domain or RBD portion for vaccines
10:41 Explanation: RBD
11:29: TAKE AWAY Vaccine Safety This shows how Vaccines are still uncharacterized on what they might be doing at the molecular level once injected in us.
11:52 Spike protein also uncharacterized post-infection (but learning lots now).

 

[dafluff]

Produced by Merogenomics Inc., a company dedicated to enhancing access of clients worldwide to genomic sequencing education and technologies. This video discusses a new surprise discovery (yet to be confirmed by other scientists) that the SARS-CoV-2 full length spike protein can enter human cell nuclei and interfere with the mechanics of fixing of broken DNA damage. The authors of the study propose this might have been evolved in order to prevent the genetic recombination required to produce antibody varieties to successfully attack the virus. If true, then this could have important implications for potential negative health outcomes (another if!) and might require reconfiguration of vaccine design.


00:00 Dr Mikolaj Raszek, Phd from Merogenomics
00:09 The latest widest news in Molecular Microbiology
00:33 WHO? Swedish research shows spike protein enters nucleus in human cells (in vitro)
00:57 this is of course, biologically verboten (*German for STRICTLY FORBIDDEN)
01:04 WHAT? Discovery Spike protein inhibits proper fixing of broken DNA
01:18 Specifics: double stranded breaks where both strands are broken
01:33 HOW? Mechanism 1 suspected interference with BRCA1 gene product’s ability to repair DNA
01:48 Consequence: if BRCA1 is mutated though, then you have highest predisposition for Cancer development precisely because BRCA1 gene codes for proteins that fix DNA damage when sheared in half
02:14 Significance: Consequences are so great if true that it should be double checked, verified and reinvestigated
2:42 Call for a lot more studies: Revalidation
2:51 HOW? Mechanism 2 Spike also interferes with mysterious nuclear protein 53BP1 which may serve to prevent DNA breaks from re-ligating to other DNA sources ensuring 2 chromosomes don’t link together that aren’t supposed to.
4:21 HOW? Mechanism 3 Perhaps spike in Nuclei interferes with Immune cells’ mechanisms (eg.BRCA1 and 53BP1) and diversity of response to infections.
4:42 TAKEAWAY What if Spike protein evolved as a mutagen for DNA – what would implications be for a vaccine that’s primary focus was to produce Spike?
5:32 CONTEXT: Recent discovery that Spikes may circulate for months on end in Exosomes to different parts of the body and in theory enter cells well after the point of vaccination as COVID-19 mRNA vaccines update 16 discussed
06:15 CONTEXT: DNA gets 70k lesions/day /cell! But only 25 are double stranded shearing damages
07:25 IMPLICATIONS: So within this context, what are the chances circulating spike proteins could enter and damage DNA and predispose to cancer? In cancer, it takes months for damage to accumulate and cause symptoms. Therefore…
7:45 IMPLICATION: Vaccine Safety Are vaccines “SAFE”? What is vaccine “Safety”? Only Time can/will tell.
8:07 IMPLICATION: Yes, Vaccines don’t produce dangerous clinical symptoms in the first few months BUT we don’t know what they do in very long-term basis so can we call them safe?
8:34 HOW? Mechanism 4 Vaccines use FULL length of spike protein thus produces whole protein in body. Prior to vaccinations some scientists mentioned that FULL protein length of Spike protein was dangerous
9:16 IMPLICATION: Antibody Dependent Enhancement or ADE could occur with use of full length of Spike protein
10:27: AUTHORS’ RECOMMENDATION: Not to use full length of spike protein but only the Receptor Binding Domain or RBD portion for vaccines
10:41 Explanation: RBD
11:29: TAKE AWAY Vaccine Safety This shows how Vaccines are still uncharacterized on what they might be doing at the molecular level once injected in us.
11:52 Spike protein also uncharacterized post-infection (but learning lots now).

This Youtube video took that very same Swedish research published in MDPI (which didn't say anything about cancer, btw) and just speculated a lot of "what ifs", without providing any evidence or specifics. Pretty irresponsible. Below is a more balanced review of that paper, and some quotes:

But in all these cases, we're talking about severe, ongoing defects in these repair pathways, not partial inhibition of one of them for a few days. Remember, even if this mechanism is operating after vaccination, it doesn’t shut down your double-strand repair forever. Everything comes back. The biggest reason not to worry is the T-cell response mentioned above: the cells that are producing lots of Spike protein after vaccination are the ones that are going to be killed off once the T cells become sensitized to them. Now, I realize that a lot of people are worried about Spike protein circulating around through the body, but remember: the experiments in this paper, even if you’re worried about them, were done in cells that were specifically engineered in their DNA to produce Spike protein constantly - this is a different mechanism than the mRNA vaccinations, which use RNA that breaks down in time. There is no evidence (and no particular reason to believe) that circulating Spike protein after vaccination, such as it is, gets taken up into other cell types and then taken into their nuclei, in sufficient quantity to have any noticeable effects at all. That’s a lot of hurdles to clear.

So no, if this current paper's conclusions are correct, and if this NHEJ inhibition via the Spike protein really is operating for a time after someone has been vaccinated - both of these need further work, for sure - I still don't see this as a cancer risk. As mentioned before, the authors of the paper didn't even bother to note this possibility either. To me, this is a nonissue that's been whipped up by people who either don't appreciate the biology involved, or perhaps do appreciate it and don't care. Just so long as worries are raised about vaccines - any weapon to hand.

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

 

[Dave70]

This Youtube video took that very same Swedish research published in MDPI (which didn't say anything about cancer, btw) and just speculated a lot of "what ifs", without providing any evidence or specifics. Pretty irresponsible.

SARS-CoV-2 Spike Findings In Vitro & Implications for Vaccine Development​

SARS-CoV-2 Spike Findings In Vitro & Implications for Vaccine Development – The Daily Examiner

www.thedailyexaminer.co.nz

Swedish researchers have found that the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein significantly inhibits DNA damage repair. Specifically, the spike protein was found to localise in the nucleus of cells and impede proteins BRCA1 and 53BP1 recruitment to damage sites. This is significant as it has implications for the ability of the human body to fight off cancers and overall adaptive immunity. It also has implications for the use of the full-length spike protein in vaccines.

Also in the article...
What is BRCA1?
What is V(D)J Recombination?

And last but not least...
The most widely deployed SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, such as that from Pfizer, use the full-length of the spike protein. It is hoped that this research will aid in the development of the next generation of “more efficient and safer” vaccines for SARS-CoV-2.

 

[gemima]

SARS-CoV-2 Spike Findings In Vitro & Implications for Vaccine Development​

SARS-CoV-2 Spike Findings In Vitro & Implications for Vaccine Development – The Daily Examiner

www.thedailyexaminer.co.nz

Swedish researchers have found that the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein significantly inhibits DNA damage repair. Specifically, the spike protein was found to localise in the nucleus of cells and impede proteins BRCA1 and 53BP1 recruitment to damage sites. This is significant as it has implications for the ability of the human body to fight off cancers and overall adaptive immunity. It also has implications for the use of the full-length spike protein in vaccines.

Also in the article...
What is BRCA1?
What is V(D)J Recombination?

And last but not least...
The most widely deployed SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, such as that from Pfizer, use the full-length of the spike protein. It is hoped that this research will aid in the development of the next generation of “more efficient and safer” vaccines for SARS-CoV-2.

I hate to keep harping on about in vitro research being unreliable but in vitro research is UNRELIABLE. It uses cell lines which are not like real life human body cells and its performed in petri dishes/ test tubes. This sort of research is what scientist do when trying to figure out models for how things MIGHT work in real life situations. THey progress onto animal studies if they think they have it figured out and IF animal studies work out the progress onto humans (the vast majority of models fail along the process).

BRCA1 is a tumour supressing gene - mutated variants of this (which you are born with - not acquired during your life) are associated with inherited breast cancers (Angelina Jolie had her breasts removed becuase she has this gene and her mother died of breast cancer): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRCA1#:~:text=BRCA1 is a human tumor,if DNA cannot be repaired.

V(D)J recombination is a process in lymphocyte (a type of immune system cell) maturation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V(D)J_recombination

It of course is interesting that the COVID spike protein can affect these - the spike protein probably affects loads of systems in the body becuase this virus is a beast in some vulnerable people and has a much higher kill rate than regular respiratory viruses we have built up resistence to over 100s of years.

You do realise that whether you get the vaccine OR the virus - you'll still have the spike protein in your body and without the vaccine I would imagine you could have a lot more spike inside your body (the lungs have a HUGE surface area and lots of space for virus replication in naive people (those who never had the virus or never had the vaccine).

HOWEVER, you do realize that when we have a virus or a vaccine the effects are localized? So, these potential affects on certain cells/ genes are LOCALIZED and not SYSTEMIC (it doesnt affect the whole of the body - just the area the virus is exposed to). As soon as an immune response is mounted the body will eradicate the virus (and the spike part).

This research had really been turned into a storm in a teacup in the media.

 

[Missnaughty]

NEW VACCINE

Covid vaccine that creates T-cells ‘gives better immune response than current jabs’

A new vaccine designed to specifically create T-cells against Covid produces a better immune response than the alternatives already in use, according to trial data.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Missnaughty]

No.

You dig all over the internet for articles supporting anti vaxxers, and you can’t be bothered to look up a simple vaccine mandate?

Every time I enroll in a new college in USA I was required to show proof of vaccination. They would stop me from coming to class if I couldn’t produce the record, or get the shot directly from the college clinic. The same requirement applies to all public school children in USA.

Vaccinations were not a controversy until Trump decided that Covid was fake, and his followers built a belief based on denying every established science about the disease. If that wasn’t bad enough, they export it to other idiots around the world.

It’s controversy to me.. with or without Trump, because It HAS NOT BEEN TESTED enough. Oh…they have made a new one.. and a new one…. Because the first ones are still ON TRIAL.

 

[nd_eric_77]

It’s controversy to me.. with or without Trump, because It HAS NOT BEEN TESTED enough. Oh…they have made a new one.. and a new one…. Because the first ones are still ON TRIAL.

The Pfizer vaccine is not on trial for adults aged 18+; it has FULL APPROVAL from the FDA; there is no higher level of approval in the US.

 

[gemima]

The Pfizer vaccine is not on trial for adults aged 18+; it has FULL APPROVAL from the FDA; there is no higher level of approval in the US.

Im being a pedant - but ALL vaccines etc are on trial forever - Post-license surveillance is performed for all medicines/ medical devices/ drugs etc.
A rotavirus vaccine was withdrawn due to post-license surveillance in the US: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2094741/

The system isnt perfect but it generally works - I find it so upsetting that so many people seem to think the US FDA is either lying/ incompetent or downright evil. They have a history of so much good work regarding medicines (e.g. https://www.fda.gov/about-fda/fda-h...eviewer-famous-averting-public-health-tragedy)

 

[Balifrog]

The system isnt perfect but it generally works - I find it so upsetting that so many people seem to think the US FDA is either lying/ incompetent or downright evil. They have a history of so much good work regarding medicines (e.g. https://www.fda.gov/about-fda/fda-h...eviewer-famous-averting-public-health-tragedy)

Hmmm, hmmmm, yep but there is a problem .... who finances the FDA .....

FDA at a Glance

FDA at a Glance is published annually by FDA’s Office of Economics and Analysis (OEA).OEA’s mission is to provide public health, economic, and strategic analysis and evaluation to inform FDA’s policy and rulemaking decisions.

www.fda.gov

Program Funding​

• The FDA budget for FY 2019 is $5.9 billion.
• About 55 percent, or $3.2 billion, of FDA’s budget is provided by federal budget authorization. The remaining 45 percent, or $2.7 billion, is paid for by industry user fees.
• The FDA budget is equivalent to $9.95 per American per year.
• The FDA budget includes 17,686 full time equivalents (FTEs).
• The Tobacco Control Act Program is paid for entirely by industry user fees.

And a bit further in the document , after the chart :

"Human Drugs regulatory activities account for 33 percent of FDA’s budget; 65 percent of these activities are paid for by industry user fees"

 

[gemima]

Hmmm, hmmmm, yep but there is a problem .... who finances the FDA .....

FDA at a Glance

FDA at a Glance is published annually by FDA’s Office of Economics and Analysis (OEA).OEA’s mission is to provide public health, economic, and strategic analysis and evaluation to inform FDA’s policy and rulemaking decisions.

www.fda.gov

Program Funding​

• The FDA budget for FY 2019 is $5.9 billion.
• About 55 percent, or $3.2 billion, of FDA’s budget is provided by federal budget authorization. The remaining 45 percent, or $2.7 billion, is paid for by industry user fees.
• The FDA budget is equivalent to $9.95 per American per year.
• The FDA budget includes 17,686 full time equivalents (FTEs).
• The Tobacco Control Act Program is paid for entirely by industry user fees.

And a bit further in the document , after the chart :

"Human Drugs regulatory activities account for 33 percent of FDA’s budget; 65 percent of these activities are paid for by industry user fees"

So what do you suggest they do to improve that? If it was 100% government funded people would claim it was biased according to what the Dems/ Republicans want (depending on who is in power at the time). Trump tried to force them to approve the vaccines faster but they didnt bow to his pressure: https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-trump-pressures-fda-to-approve-covid-vaccine-quickly/a-55913762
Shouldnt industry contribute towards the FDA by paying permits to get licenses?!? It makes sense to me.

 

[Nimbus]

It’s controversy to me.. with or without Trump, because It HAS NOT BEEN TESTED enough. Oh…they have made a new one.. and a new one…. Because the first ones are still ON TRIAL.

It’s a controversy to you and to people who don’t or refuse to understand how medicine and science work.

Science is not perfect, but that’s the best we humans can do. We can’t always have perfection.

At this point I no longer believe that you honestly strive for perfection, because that argument for Covid just don’t make sense logically and mathematically. A study has proven that the vaccines are better than safe, they actually make people who receive them less likely to die even without Covid. How many million people you’re gonna let die before this vaccine is “tested enough”.

Why don’t you try honesty for once and let us know the real reason you’re against the vaccines? Because even you are not stupid enough to let millions die for the sake of formality and perfection.

 

[nd_eric_77]

Im being a pedant - but ALL vaccines etc are on trial forever - Post-license surveillance is performed for all medicines/ medical devices/ drugs etc.
A rotavirus vaccine was withdrawn due to post-license surveillance in the US: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2094741/

The system isnt perfect but it generally works - I find it so upsetting that so many people seem to think the US FDA is either lying/ incompetent or downright evil. They have a history of so much good work regarding medicines (e.g. https://www.fda.gov/about-fda/fda-h...eviewer-famous-averting-public-health-tragedy)

I think you and I are on the same side (pro-vaccine) here.
Earlier this year, some US-based anti-vaxxers were refusing to take Covid vaccines, specifically the Pfizer ones, because the FDA had "only" granted emergency use authorization for those vaccines. As of a couple months ago, those people can no longer make such claims since the FDA has granted full authorization. Of course, health outcomes will still be monitored - just as they are monitored with all pharmaceuticals.

 

[gemima]

I think you and I are on the same side (pro-vaccine) here.
Earlier this year, some US-based anti-vaxxers were refusing to take Covid vaccines, specifically the Pfizer ones, because the FDA had "only" granted emergency use authorization for those vaccines. As of a couple months ago, those people can no longer make such claims since the FDA has granted full authorization. Of course, health outcomes will still be monitored - just as they are monitored with all pharmaceuticals.

We agree - I was being a pain in the arse and a pedant. I just like to point out about post market surveillance because I think most people who don't know how drug/ vaxx licenses work don't realize the huge body of work that goes into it - which is never finished! Most companies take this very seriously (well they are legally obliged to after all).

 

[Hawk256]

We agree - I was being a pain in the arse and a pedant. I just like to point out about post market surveillance because I think most people who don't know how drug/ vaxx licenses work don't realize the huge body of work that goes into it - which is never finished! Most companies take this very seriously (well they are legally obliged to after all).

How safe are the FDA's approved drugs?

Nearly a third of FDA-approved drugs had problems, study finds | CNN

About a third of the drugs the FDA approved between 2001 and 2010 were involved in some kind of safety event after reaching the market, according to a new study.

edition.cnn.com

 

[gemima]

How safe are the FDA's approved drugs?

Nearly a third of FDA-approved drugs had problems, study finds | CNN

About a third of the drugs the FDA approved between 2001 and 2010 were involved in some kind of safety event after reaching the market, according to a new study.

edition.cnn.com

You realize they have an impossible job right?
All drugs have side effects - some are so rare you'll only notice once it's tested on a large population (hence the post-license surveillance). If they dont approve a new drug people could die/ suffer from a disease the drug could help with (so not licensing any drugs is not the answer). They have to balance the negatives with the positives for everything and that makes it easy to criticize them (there will always be negatives to focus on).
If they make the bar too high for pharmaceuticals to be able to achieve licensing then no new drugs will be produced.
There are no easy answers to any of this.

 

[macvert]

There are no easy answers to any of this.

There is one, "It's a conspiracy".... haha

 

[Dave70]

I hate to keep harping on about in vitro research being unreliable but in vitro research is UNRELIABLE. It uses cell lines which are not like real life human body cells and its performed in petri dishes/ test tubes. This sort of research is what scientist do when trying to figure out models for how things MIGHT work in real life situations. THey progress onto animal studies if they think they have it figured out and IF animal studies work out the progress onto humans (the vast majority of models fail along the process).

I get it, you are saying that in vitro research is UNRELIABLE. So the researchers in Sweden are stupid or what? And those peers who reviewed the paper are also stupid?

Anyway, how long does it take to progress onto animal studies and then onto humans? Cancer takes months or years for damage to accumulate and cause symptoms, by the time the trial is over, it could be too late. Most would be suffering from cancer already, unless the models failed along the process, as you said.

Unlike other countries, people in Indonesia can choose the vaccine they want. I'll pick inactivated over mRNA.

 

[Hawk256]

You realize they have an impossible job right?
All drugs have side effects - some are so rare you'll only notice once it's tested on a large population (hence the post-license surveillance). If they dont approve a new drug people could die/ suffer from a disease the drug could help with (so not licensing any drugs is not the answer). They have to balance the negatives with the positives for everything and that makes it easy to criticize them (there will always be negatives to focus on).
If they make the bar too high for pharmaceuticals to be able to achieve licensing then no new drugs will be produced.
There are no easy answers to any of this.

Here is another article which happens to be a little more critical of the FDA but also provides some numbers with research articles cited at the beginning. I personally am not making any conclusions or assumptions just providing information so someone can do their own research.

Misplaced Trust: Why FDA Approval Doesn’t Guarantee Drug Safety

Americans trust that drugs approved by the FDA are safe, but this is not always the case. We hear from advocate Kim Witczak, who lost her husband in 2003.

www.drugwatch.com

 

[Nimbus]

You realize they have an impossible job right?
All drugs have side effects - some are so rare you'll only notice once it's tested on a large population (hence the post-license surveillance). If they dont approve a new drug people could die/ suffer from a disease the drug could help with (so not licensing any drugs is not the answer). They have to balance the negatives with the positives for everything and that makes it easy to criticize them (there will always be negatives to focus on).
If they make the bar too high for pharmaceuticals to be able to achieve licensing then no new drugs will be produced.
There are no easy answers to any of this.

For drugs outside Covid vaccines, the most common criticism to the FDA is its lengthy approval process. Conventional drugs can take 12-15 years from research to approval.

For an esoteric drug that helps people with rare diseases, the lengthy process is painful but understandable. On the other hand Covid would kill about 3 million people a year without vaccines, so they can’t afford to wait that long.

Frankly, the demand for perfection in Covid vaccines is only the last position of anti vaxxers’ moving goalposts. First they said there wasn’t enough trials, then they said it was not FDA approved outside emergencies, now they say there’s no long term proof of safety.

 

[Nimbus]

I get it, you are saying that in vitro research is UNRELIABLE. So the researchers in Sweden are stupid or what? And those peers who reviewed the paper are also stupid?

Anyway, how long does it take to progress onto animal studies and then onto humans? Cancer takes months or years for damage to accumulate and cause symptoms, by the time the trial is over, it could be too late. Most would be suffering from cancer already, unless the models failed along the process, as you said.

Unlike other countries, people in Indonesia can choose the vaccine they want. I'll pick inactivated over mRNA.

Inactivated virus vaccines, as in Sinovac? Indonesia lost hundreds of Sinovac-vaccinated doctors and nurses, until those health workers eventually received Moderna and Pfizer vaccines. The numbers available shows that Sinovac is about 55-65% effective, while mRNA vaccines are at about 95%. Still, a vaccine is better than no vaccine, but to consciously trade 50% extra protection to avoid a very small chance of side effect is weird. I guess when you’re dead there is no more worry about potential side effects.