US citizen WNI mother with KTP must declare citizenship

[Puspawarna]

I stand corrected on the ranking then, because while I don't recall the details of the 1-5 difficulty ranking that I referred to, I'd be stunned if it wasn't the Defense Language Institute. Shame on me for passing on half-assed incorrect information. Better take what I say with a grain of salt!

Anyway, I like your point about Indonesian being logically structured. It's quite true that it has avoided the nightmarish spelling inconsistencies of English.

My only concern is that people feel too confident in their Indonesian and unknowingly make themselves look silly when they speak at a higher level. The vast majority of Indonesians are simply thrilled to hear any foreigner speaking the language, so we’re not about to correct you or even hint that you’re making a mistake, despite you sounding like an elementary school child while speaking to a news reporter on TV.

I'm pretty sure I sounded worse than that! (I think you've seen the news clip that some station did with me a few years ago. It was bad, I know.)

There was a brief period in late 2017 or so when I was asked by 3-4 different Indonesian students if they could videotape interviews with me talking about gamelan. (They were all from the same university doing a project on cross-cultural communication or something like that, and they all settled on talking to me as a means of completing an assignment.)

In an ill-considered moment, I once tracked down several of the interviews, which had been posted to YouTube. What an embarrassment!

In my defense, I was nervous, and my language skills flew out the window when a microphone was shoved in my face and a video camera was trained on me. But I know in my heart that even if I hadn't been nervous, I wouldn't have been all that good.

 

[Nimbus]

I stand corrected on the ranking then, because while I don't recall the details of the 1-5 difficulty ranking that I referred to, I'd be stunned if it wasn't the Defense Language Institute. Shame on me for passing on half-assed incorrect information. Better take what I say with a grain of salt!

Don’t beat yourself too hard, I wouldn’t be surprised if their categorization has changed over the years. I also felt like there were more than 4 categories. Since their classification is directly related to their curriculum and their proficiency standard, it can evolve, and probably did.

Anyway, I like your point about Indonesian being logically structured. It's quite true that it has avoided the nightmarish spelling inconsistencies of English.

The relative simplicity of Indonesian is part of the reason why it’s slowly and steadily becoming the native language of more and more Indonesians. There is a real concern today that some of the lesser spoken ethnic languages are on the way to extinction. I was surprised to see a recent documentary about kids in rural central java where they all speak Indonesian instead of Javanese. This would be unthinkable 3-4 decades ago. When I was a kid and got sent to Semarang for holiday break with relatives, I came back speaking Javanese because few people speak Indonesian at home.

I'm pretty sure I sounded worse than that! (I think you've seen the news clip that some station did with me a few years ago. It was bad, I know.)

There was a brief period in late 2017 or so when I was asked by 3-4 different Indonesian students if they could videotape interviews with me talking about gamelan. (They were all from the same university doing a project on cross-cultural communication or something like that, and they all settled on talking to me as a means of completing an assignment.)

In an ill-considered moment, I once tracked down several of the interviews, which had been posted to YouTube. What an embarrassment!

In my defense, I was nervous, and my language skills flew out the window when a microphone was shoved in my face and a video camera was trained on me. But I know in my heart that even if I hadn't been nervous, I wouldn't have been all that good.

I didn’t mean to put you on the spot. You are well calibrated with your Indonesian, so you are not overly confident nor overly pessimistic. When you accepted those interviews, you knew your limitations yet decided to power through them, which is commendable.

I wrote all this just as a friendly caution, so people don’t fall into a false sense of proficiency. I’m sure you met many Indonesians who graduated the ultimate level of their English language courses and think they’re ‘fluent’ or “near native”, while in reality an American fifth grader speaks better.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Having learnt Indonesian and also a highly structured/complex Central European language, I would say Indonesian is more difficult because:
1) the words are less memorable for a Westerner - none of the Chinese, Arabic or Malay-origin words are from an Indo-European / sanskrit background. I mean how to remember words like amsiong, nafkah, nyangkut? In European languages, most words fit in to a structure or go back to an indo-european root. Indonesian can feel like random words mixed together.
2) learning basic words is quite easy, but speaking colloquial Indonesian like a local using all those little words like loh, sih, kok, kali, wah, iih, nih etc. is not easy at all until you develop a feel for it, and that only comes from years of exposure to it.
3) there's always a possibility that a word you hear is from one of the local languages and not from Indonesian itself, which can be confusing
4) the use of prefixes/suffixes is not really predictable as mentioned in the post above, so you can't work out logically what a word should be, you have to know it separately in each case
5) I started learning it in my late 30s (compared to early 20s for my other language) and any language is more difficult when the brain cells start deteriorating

 

[BliGundul]

The absence of Latin roots common to the Romans languages certainly has a lot to do with your observations, and personal experience regarding learning Indonesian. When our oldest daughter was about 1 1/2 years old, I suddenly realized that I had been doing her a huge disservice by speaking Indonesian with her, instead of English. My wife speaks just a bit of English, so from that day forward I have always spoken to our children in English. Knowing that speaking Balinese and Indonesian with my wife's family and in school would ensure reasonable fluency. My Indonesian is far from CNN Indonesia broadcast ready, nor did I ever mean to suggest that was the case. Merely meant to, without ill will and denigration mention that every time I see a foreigner in residence, who steadfastly refuses to learn enough Bahasa, to aspire to a first grade level of fluency, I am blown away by how seemingly condescending that is. The presumption that everybody in the country is responsible to learn English, to facilitate such behaviour just seemed like a bit of a logical/illogical leap of faith.
I loved your comment about the law of diminishing returns as a function of aging gray matter!

I was just reminded of my first trip to Lombok in '89, and my lack of understanding, when at a remote
traditional market I was surprised that the Sasak woman with whom I was trying to negotiate in Indonesian, wasn't on the same wave length as my first grade Indonesian. She may have never gone to school, let alone studied Indonesian, and everybody she knew spoke Sasak very well! Live and learn!

 

[Nimbus]

Having learnt Indonesian and also a highly structured/complex Central European language, I would say Indonesian is more difficult because:
1) the words are less memorable for a Westerner - none of the Chinese, Arabic or Malay-origin words are from an Indo-European / sanskrit background. I mean how to remember words like amsiong, nafkah, nyangkut? In European languages, most words fit in to a structure or go back to an indo-european root. Indonesian can feel like random words mixed together.
2) learning basic words is quite easy, but speaking colloquial Indonesian like a local using all those little words like loh, sih, kok, kali, wah, iih, nih etc. is not easy at all until you develop a feel for it, and that only comes from years of exposure to it.
3) there's always a possibility that a word you hear is from one of the local languages and not from Indonesian itself, which can be confusing
4) the use of prefixes/suffixes is not really predictable as mentioned in the post above, so you can't work out logically what a word should be, you have to know it separately in each case
5) I started learning it in my late 30s (compared to early 20s for my other language) and any language is more difficult when the brain cells start deteriorating

Good points.

Just a comment: Indonesian is consistent enough that it’s generally possible to deduce the meaning of the root word in combination with an affix set, but it’s like calculating on the fly, which is too slow for true fluency. Instead of calculating 3^2+1, it’s faster to just remember it as 10. Instead of figuring out that ‘ada’ + pe-an (process), it’s faster to remember that ‘pengadaan’ means ‘supply’.

 

[fastpitch17]

Back to BliGundul's question. (Hey, I just realized I've been misreading his name as "Bill Gundul." I've been thinking of him as "Bald Bill.")

If your daughter hangs on to her Indonesian citizenship, she sounds like she is 80% of the way to being the dream candidate for multinational companies in Indonesia. Years ago, I ran the American Chamber of Commerce in Indonesia, so I know what I'm talking about (unless things have radically changed, but I doubt it). Western companies want managers that speak English (or Japanese, or German, but we're talking about American firms here) and are culturally relatable to them - but at the same time, they hate the hassle and expense of justifying hiring foreigners. The perfect solution is a de facto American who carries an Indonesian passport. I knew some Indonesian citizens who had been raised in America, and let me tell you, companies DROOLED over them.

One assumes your daughter is at least a little bit culturally American, and you say her English skills are reasonably native speaker level. If I were her parent, I would strongly encourage her to find a way to spend some time in the US. Sure, money may be too tight for you to send her, but where there is a will, there's a way. Perhaps she could get a scholarship to a community college, or work as an au pair for a couple of years? Do you have family members in the US that she could live with for a while?

If she could combine an Indonesian passport with good English skills and the ability to code switch (meaning, act and sound like an Indonesian when in Indonesian settings and like an American when dealing with Americans) she'd be highly marketable. Tha's assuming she's not a lazy fool, but it sounds like she's smart and motivated. The missing piece is that time in the US to cement her pass-for-American skills.

Seems to be a market in the actor and newscasting world here if you look somewhat Western with lighter skin. Unfortunately this seems to be a thing here.
Puspa gives good advice. I know a mixed couple that fecided to move back to the US when their son was in 7th grade. 2nd year of high school now. When he left his English was not good. As I understand it now, you can not tell without looking that English is a 2nd language. He only speaks Indonesia with his mother now and writes it to his old friends here so still maintains a good level of that. He has also excelled in school.
Early plans were him returning to Indonesia when he got older but he has changed them to after college enlisting to become a military officer. The environment this kid is around has certainly helped him excell.

 

[jukung11]

Sure, money may be too tight for you to send her, but where there is a will, there's a way. Perhaps she could get a scholarship to a community college, or work as an au pair for a couple of years? Do you have family members in the US that she could live with for a while?

Since she has decided to not renounce her U.S. citizenship, she should take full advantage of all benefits available to her as an American citizen. If the possibilty of her or your other 2 children may choose education in the United States, you should fill out the free application for federal student aid. (FAFSA). She may also want to research state and locality residency establishment requirements. With the lower relative incomes of Indonesia, she is likely to get full financial benefits and grants. Depending on locality, with state (up to $5000) and federal pell($6,500) grants, tuition at community college can be essentially free.

Some things may have change since you left 20 years ago. Government assistance programs increased under the Obama administration and are expected to again under the Biden administration. There are funds for housing, food, and utilities.

Indonesian communities tend to rent rooms to other Indonesians below market rate. You can direct message me for details.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Bahasa Jaksel is well known as a kind of language or dialect when the basis is Indonesian, but English words are used instead when considered more convenient / cool / other reason. They even seem to have their own political movement.

Example: anyway, mau ke mana?
basically semua seru
kalo gue ntar money oriented, mo lari ke corporate aja la
Rotasi pemain di zona behind the lines dan half space pun

Reverse Bahasa Jaksel is a kind of language or dialect when the basis is English, but Indonesia words are used instead when considered more convenient / cool / other reason.
No political movement yet!
Example:
Next week I'm going pulang kampung
How about satu lagi before the bar closes?
Just give the satpam some uang rokok and it will be fine
My wife brought a dog with the angkot and went jalan jalan around Bandung
That lady is a real ibu ibu



So bahasa jaksel is used by those who grew up in a totally Indonesian environment, but maybe started using English early on as a second language, or have discovered it recently.

Reverse bahasa jaksel is used by those who grew up in a totally English environment, but are in Indonesia and so mix in Indonesian words, to make themselves more understandable to the locals, or just out of laziness (I mean how would you even explain the role of uang rokok in Indo society in English words).

Maybe over time the two will actually merge, given how many Indonesians these days are brought up in English-speaking environments.

So which do you use?

 

[Nimbus]

Bahasa Jaksel is well known as a kind of language or dialect when the basis is Indonesian, but English words are used instead when considered more convenient / cool / other reason. They even seem to have their own political movement.
View attachment 2650

Example: anyway, mau ke mana?
basically semua seru
kalo gue ntar money oriented, mo lari ke corporate aja la
Rotasi pemain di zona behind the lines dan half space pun

Reverse Bahasa Jaksel is a kind of language or dialect when the basis is English, but Indonesia words are used instead when considered more convenient / cool / other reason.
No political movement yet!
Example:
Next week I'm going pulang kampung
How about satu lagi before the bar closes?
Just give the satpam some uang rokok and it will be fine
My wife brought a dog with the angkot and went jalan jalan around Bandung
That lady is a real ibu ibu



So bahasa jaksel is used by those who grew up in a totally Indonesian environment, but maybe started using English early on as a second language, or have discovered it recently.

Reverse bahasa jaksel is used by those who grew up in a totally English environment, but are in Indonesia and so mix in Indonesian words, to make themselves more understandable to the locals, or just out of laziness (I mean how would you even explain the role of uang rokok in Indo society in English words).

Maybe over time the two will actually merge, given how many Indonesians these days are brought up in English-speaking environments.

So which do you use?

I find bahasa Jaksel mildly uncomfortable, and that’s coming from a guy who spent his school years in Jaksel. My middle school and high school friends sprinkle more English words in their sentences than I do.

My niece was born and mostly raised in USA, so she swings between complete English and Jaksel, because her Indonesian is not great. Her grandma loves to tell stories about the funny ways she butchers Indonesian words. She is excused, because she is literally a U.S. passport holder.

I try to speak in complete Indonesian when I’m in Indonesia, speaking to other Indonesians. It may come out like Jaksel at times, but that’s not intentional. Because I speak English 99% of the time, I feel that I have an excuse. Using Indonesian terms in English is ok if they’re hard to translate, especially if you’re talking to Indonesians.

 

[centurion]

Example: anyway, mau ke mana?
basically semua seru
kalo gue ntar money oriented, mo lari ke corporate aja la
Rotasi pemain di zona behind the lines dan half space pun

Reverse Bahasa Jaksel is a kind of language or dialect when the basis is English, but Indonesia words are used instead when considered more convenient / cool / other reason.
No political movement yet!
Example:
Next week I'm going pulang kampung
How about satu lagi before the bar closes?
Just give the satpam some uang rokok and it will be fine
My wife brought a dog with the angkot and went jalan jalan around Bandung
That lady is a real ibu ibu

Bastardisation of the Indonesian language. French would find this disgusting.

 

[Banana72]

I try to use Indonesian as much as possible when I speak with Indonesians although certain things are much easier when expressed in English..but I try to use Indonesian as much as possible to avoid being called 'sombong' especially in certain situations (like reunion, meeting new people, etc).

 

[Nimbus]

I try to use Indonesian as much as possible when I speak with Indonesians although certain things are much easier when expressed in English..but I try to use Indonesian as much as possible to avoid being called 'sombong' especially in certain situations (like reunion, meeting new people, etc).

Most of the time other Indonesians use more English than I do. When I speak Indonesian, I make a conscious effort to use only Indonesian words, but most of my school mates from Jaksel have no such concern.

It’s kinda funny, because people who don’t know us can get the impression that I’ve never been anywhere outside Indonesia, compared to my ‘sophisticated’ friends who liberally sprinkle their Indonesian sentences with ‘literally’, ‘anyway’, ‘basically’, etc.

 

[Banana72]

Most of the time other Indonesians use more English than I do. When I speak Indonesian, I make a conscious effort to use only Indonesian words, but most of my school mates from Jaksel have no such concern.

It’s kinda funny, because people who don’t know us can get the impression that I’ve never been anywhere outside Indonesia, compared to my ‘sophisticated’ friends who liberally sprinkle their Indonesian sentences with ‘literally’, ‘anyway’, ‘basically’, etc.

I actually mixed up 'eventhough' and 'biarpun' and came out as 'evenpun' I said this sooo many frickin times my good buddy thought it was soo funny he never corrected me until one day he couldn't keep the fun to himself anymore and decided to let me know. I swear I didn't even know it!!

 

[Nimbus]

I actually mixed up 'eventhough' and 'biarpun' and came out as 'evenpun' I said this sooo many frickin times my good buddy thought it was soo funny he never corrected me until one day he couldn't keep the fun to himself anymore and decided to let me know. I swear I didn't even know it!!

Just own it, make it your trademark.

My in-laws like to invent words for fun, like ‘semangka’ instead of ‘semangat’.

 

[jstar]

Bastardisation of the Indonesian language. French would find this disgusting.

I think you haven’t been to France in a long time…

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Yes, the French are literally the poster boys of how to bastardise their own language with English.
The fact the government or language academy tries to stop it makes it even funnier.