The drab hand of religions.

[Bob]

Is there any law in Indonesia about people who claim they want to ‘meet God’ and end up take other people with them, killing others in a suicide bombing? It’s worth noting that Indonesian police have acknowledged that a reasonable number of people involved in suicide bombings came from a particular religious boarding schools.


And why should people have to follow someone else’s rules just because of how others believe people should dress? Is there any other religions in Indonesia that actually forbids wearing 'thongs' in the beach?

And keep in mind, Indonesia officially recognises multiple religions, they’re protected by the constitution, even though there have been several attempt from some group of people keep trying to change that.

I think outside of a minority in a few urban centers, the big majority of Catholics and Protestants and a large share of other religions wouldn't accept thongs in public.

 

[Pak Tani]

In Indonesia, wearing a burkha may not always be a voluntary decision, but rather the result of pressure from society, close circles, or family.

On the other hand it may also be someone's personal decision.

...it may suggest that their decision to wear them in Indonesia was influenced by social or pressure form some family member rather than being fully voluntary.

On the other hand it may not be the case and they experienced pressure from the society (western or not) they were visiting to remove their veils.

Pretty hard argueing with that.

 

[Bob]

This is indeed the case. I have observed many instances of Indonesians who travel overseas for holidays or education. While in Indonesia, they wear a burka and cover their faces, leaving only their eyes visible; however, when they travel or study abroad, they remove these coverings entirely.

The conclusion is evident: some (probably many) do not wear it by personal choice, but rather due to pressure from society, some family members etc

Let's keep things in the realm of reality. Most all of us wouldn't have the opportunity to see such a thing were it to occur, and there aren't many Indonesian women who wear burkas to start with. I've been on a couple of hundred or more flights out of Indonesia and I've noticed a jilbab getting ditched maybe twice.

 

[Pak Tani]

Let's keep things in the realm of reality. Most all of us wouldn't have the opportunity to see such a thing were it to occur, and there aren't many Indonesian women who wear burkas to start with. I've taken couple of hundred or more flights out of Indonesia and I've noticed a jilbab getting ditched maybe twice.

Exactly.

"Are these women with us in the room right now, Pantaiema?"

 

[Bob]

On the other hand it may also be someone's personal decision.

On the other hand it may not be the case and they experienced pressure from the society (western or not) they were visiting to remove their veils.

Pretty hard argueing with that.

A lot of employers in Singapore don't want their maids to wear a veil.

 

[pantaiema]

Exactly.

"Are these women with us in the room right now, Pantaiema?

Not really, but I love to see if the trio is coming together

A lot of employers in Singapore don't want their maids to wear a veil.

Is there any law in Singapore that prohibits this? Why haven’t they taken legal action? Is it because these women are unaware of their rights due to long-term indoctrination in boarding schools, their surrounding society, or within their family and close social circles?

 

[Bob]

Not really, but I love to see if the trio is coming together

Is there any law in Singapore that prohibits this? Why haven’t they taken legal action? Is it because these women are unaware of their rights due to long-term indoctrination in boarding schools, their surrounding society, or within their family and close social circles?

You should look up the law there.
Why doesn't who take legal action?
Is what because of your imagined indoctrination?
Your questions don't coherently follow my statement.

 

[pantaiema]

You should look up the law there.
Why doesn't who take legal action?
Is what because of your imagined indoctrination?
Your questions don't coherently follow my statement.

Mind the explain which Law in Singapore that prohibit the use of veil in Singapore ? The Law number, year and specific article please.

 

[Bob]

Mind the explain which Law in Singapore that prohibit the use of veil in Singapore ? The Law number, year and specific article please.

I'll take that as a dodge of the questions.
You should look up the law that says anyone who wants to wear one anytime anywhere may do so. It will be hard to find since it doesn't exist.
An employer of a domestic servant has the upper hand in matters of employment terms. One that doesn't want their maid to wear one can make things uncomfortable should the maid not agree. There's no law there that will override that.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

One good thing about Prabowo's reign as president, which presumably will continue for at least two terms, is that he's from a mixed religion family, celebrates Christmas, and clearly has no time at all for religious extremists disturbing society with their weird ideas.
Although the economy and the rupiah will probably go down the toilet over the next few years, I think he will make it clear to everyone that there is no room for the Islamic organizations to do what they did under Jokowi.
Maybe he'll even make the mosques turn down the loudspeakers (unlikely, but we can dream...)

 

[Balifrog]

This is indeed the case. I have observed many instances of Indonesians who travel overseas for holidays or education. While in Indonesia, they wear a burka and cover their faces, leaving only their eyes visible; however, when they travel or study abroad, they remove these coverings entirely.

The conclusion is evident: some (probably many) do not wear it by personal choice, but rather due to pressure from society, some family members etc

I saw the same when working in Saudi.
Girls boarding the plane in Ryad dressed with the full gear, 5 min after take off they headed for the toilet and came out in jeans or shorts.
They don't wear that ridiculous clothing out of free will !
Look at Iran or Afghanistan......

 

[Balifrog]

In your conclusion, how did you weigh in the pressure these women were experiencing from the western society to remove their islamic dress?

Obviously you haven't been in London or Paris since a long time...

 

[Balifrog]

In France I've heard women say that they'd prefer to wear a jilbab at work but feel pressured to not do so.

Wrong
In the high immigration suburbs the girls will be strongly pressured by their elder brother to behave and dress like a "proper muslim", even if she don't want.
Hijab or headscarf are not allowed for government workers, included teachers. Many private companies will not allowed it neither.
Don't forget France is a secular society, state and religion are completely separated.
Every religion is accepted but the display of obvious signs of faith is not allowed.

 

[pantaiema]

In Iran, women are legally required to wear a hijab, covering the hair and neck, along with modest clothing that covers the arms and legs in public spaces. Many Iranian women later study in Europe, particularly in the UK, where such legal requirements do not exist. Once living and studying in the UK, how many of these female students continue to wear the same attire in public areas on campus?

If wearing this clothing is primarily a matter of personal choice rather than legal or social enforcement, what factors influence whether they choose to continue or discontinue wearing it abroad?

The question for trio @Pak Tani, @Bob, @Hawk256

 

[pantaiema]

Good for her I guess but is she contributing to society or learning anything worthwhile by doing that?
What do you think motivated those demonstrations against Ahok? Could it have been his favoritism to certain players?
How much money do students in any boarding school make? Do the kids in Catholic school in Flores have money market accounts?
I hate to break it to you but a lot of houses of worship here of various religions aren't engineered well.

Yes she is. Entertainment, artistic, etc see how many are clicking her videos. She also makes money from it.

What do you think motivated those demonstrations against Ahok? Could it have been his favoritism to certain players?
How much money do students in any boarding school make? Do the kids in Catholic school in Flores have money market accounts?
I hate to break it to you but a lot of houses of worship here of various religions aren't engineered well.

It is widely reported that some demonstrators receive around IDR 50,000 to cover transportation costs. If financial incentive is truly the primary motivation rather than ideology or religion, then one would expect similarly large participation from other economically disadvantaged groups, such as people from eastern Indonesia (including Flores, Maluku, and Papua). However, how many individuals from these regions actually took part in the demonstrations? Moreover, how does a purely financial explanation account for the fact that participants were reportedly required to wear specific religious attire, such as turbans, white robes, or, in the case of women, face coverings?

Additionally, how does the financial-motivation theory explain suicide bombings? It should be noted that police have confirmed that those responsible were identified as coming from religious boarding schools.

 

[Balifrog]

n Iran, women are legally required to wear a hijab, covering the hair and neck, along with modest clothing that covers the arms and legs in public spaces.

A Day in Iran (2025): What’s Life Really Like?

Walking Through Iran in 2025 – Everyday Life & PeopleWhat’s life really like in Iran in 2025? In this video, we take you on a journey through the streets, ma...

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Don't believe all the stuff the Western media are feeding us....
BTW : The comments are interesting.

 

[harryopal1]

It can be noted that there are few women seen in street demonstrations. Is it because their brains are smaller and they don't think? What women do and don't do is greatly influenced by cultural pressures in the societies in which they live. As with the habits of Catholic nuns these are women who have chosen a life of abstinence by choice but wearing of hijabs is not just for vestal virigins. (Since 1960 fewer nuns wear the full length costume.) It seems there is increasing pressure for women in Indonesia to wear hijabs. I wonder how many not particularly religions women think, "Ohh, I would love to cover myself head to foot in that dreary costume."

 

[Bob]

Wrong
In the high immigration suburbs the girls will be strongly pressured by their elder brother to behave and dress like a "proper muslim", even if she don't want.
Hijab or headscarf are not allowed for government workers, included teachers. Many private companies will not allowed it neither.
Don't forget France is a secular society, state and religion are completely separated.
Every religion is accepted but the display of obvious signs of faith is not allowed.

It's not wrong at all. I'm well aware of the conversations. Yes obvious signs of faith are not allowed there, except for the ones that are.
The ability to overhear conversations (in English) from another continent and to correct them would be very extraordinary indeed.

 

[Bob]

In Iran, women are legally required to wear a hijab, covering the hair and neck, along with modest clothing that covers the arms and legs in public spaces. Many Iranian women later study in Europe, particularly in the UK, where such legal requirements do not exist. Once living and studying in the UK, how many of these female students continue to wear the same attire in public areas on campus?

If wearing this clothing is primarily a matter of personal choice rather than legal or social enforcement, what factors influence whether they choose to continue or discontinue wearing it abroad?

The question for trio @Pak Tani, @Bob, @Hawk256

We're discussing Indonesia though. Would the factors ne the same?
I'm curious how you witnessed all those costume changes. How long were you a WC attendant and in which airports?

 

[Bob]

Yes she is. Entertainment, artistic, etc see how many are clicking her videos. She also make money from it.

That's art? I guess a strip club is a ballet then. Does an activity making money make it worthwhile?

It is widely reported that some demonstrators receive around IDR 50,000 to cover transportation costs. If financial incentive is truly the primary motivation rather than ideology or religion, then one would expect similarly large participation from other economically disadvantaged groups, such as people from eastern Indonesia (including Flores, Maluku, and Papua). However, how many individuals from these regions actually took part in the demonstrations? Moreover, how does a purely financial explanation account for the fact that participants were reportedly required to wear specific religious attire, such as turbans, white robes, or, in the case of women, face coverings?

It seems that you have yourself confused. The demonstrations were in Jakarta and about Jakarta, so participation of people from other provinces wouldn't be expected. You brought up financial incentive so I'll leave the answer on that to you.

Additionally, how does the financial-motivation theory explain suicide bombings? It should be noted that police have confirmed that those responsible were identified as coming from religious boarding schools.

What does that have to do with this conversation?