So .... this is meant to be reassuring?

Hmm , let's see ... nope, I didn't post a thread here about cops shooting "assailants" in self-defense or to protect other members of the public, nor about individuals, in general, killing "assailants" in genuine self-defense. That also certainly happens quite a lot, but it wasn't what I intended this thread to be about at all.
Well, then it is a good thing I quoted post #15, rather than #1. That post, in turn, quoted #14, which quoted... you guessed it, not #1. It might be easier to understand a given post if you start from the top of the thread and read down.

Yeah, Pak AM, you're pissed about police screwing up and killing people. I get that. I'm pretty sure everyone gets that. It needs to stop. Got any ideas?

What some of us seem not to get is that police are not superheroes. They are not fearless kung-fu masters. They are not Doc Holliday. Asking them to use lethal force as a last result is obvious. Expecting them to never use it is... unrealistic. Some of them, when they are scared, shoot their guns. That is what Euc- and I were talking about, when is it appropriate for an officer to shoot their gun? Hopefully the officers are better trained to answer that question than are you and I. Still, two cents are; an officer can and should fire their gun any time they are assaulted with a lethal weapon and their lives are in danger or any time that the officer fears an attacker (even an unarmed one) may take control of their weapon. I'd say the same thing for citizens.

I'm not on the "go big blue" side. I am on the "let's not treat police officers like they are expendable robots" side.
 
I do find it a very strange story, I cannot figure out why you would shoot someone lying on the ground with his hands in the air,
I think you might re-read the stories.

also why arrest someone who isn't 100% who is just selling cigarettes, there doesn't seem much leeway, certain people seem to be arrested at the drop of a hat for minor offenses
Yeah, I don't thin anyone is going to understand that. Some cops are just a-holes. Some of them are over-stressed and need a few "mental health" days.

The laws have to be fair and the police have to be trained to enforce them fairly. This whole problem is exacerbated by number of citizens carrying guns, far as I see it.
 
Media reporting suggests that every person shot by the police is black and that it is the cops that are the problem. Yes, there are mistakes made by the cops and unfortunately, some are deadly. But I believe many of the problems could be avoided by simply fully complying with a police order and calmly trying to explain why you think the police are wrong instead of resisting.

The following sheds some light on the statistics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/07/18/police-shootings-and-race/
Think about this, please. You may be a cool, calm, collected, emotionally stable, intelligent and rational person (or at least a reasonable facsimile thereof). And your advice, theoretically, is soundly based in reason and it makes sense to think that indeed this could prevent many of the "problems" that occur in these police interactions with citizens (or non-citizens). But even a cool, calm, collected, emotionally stable and rational person may find themselves feeling just a bit stressed, nervous or on-edge when confronted by police: have you ever been in such a situation?

And even if you say you have (let's say a simple traffic stop): can you deny the possibility that some members of society might be treated or approached "somewhat" differently by "some" police officers than you were, even in the same or similar situation? If you are ready to assert that there is no difference, and since you like to refer to statistics, can you supply any to support this claim?

Now, please remember that many people who find themselves as being subjects of police investigations or interaction are NOT, necessarily, "Cool calm, collected, emotionally stable and rationally thinking individuals". The police themselves certainly are mindful of this all the time, though they might express it a bit differently. And naturally this is one of the reasons for the high stress levels which must be associated with the job of police officers working the streets. There are a lot of emotionally and / or mentally unstable individuals "out there": some are criminals or law-breakers, some are not; some are dangerous to themselves or others, some are not. The police clearly have a very difficult job in which they may often have to make "judgment calls" on such situations and individuals.

But the police are also supposed to be trained to deal with these issues, since it is a clear part of their job. And yes, sometimes it may be really necessary to shoot someone, with no obvious alternative.

But just because someone isn't emotionally stable enough or mentally able - or, in some cases, willing - to follow your wise advice, does that mean they deserve to die for their lack of ability or willpower? Or that police should not be held accountable for their actions, because of their function?

I have already stipulated that the issue or problem is about more than just race, and that incidents like these can and do involve interactions between individuals of all races in interactions with cops of all races.

Nevertheless, anyone who denies that people are "often" treated differently by police (as well as courts, prisons and parole boards) depending on their race and / or socio-economic status is a person hiding their head in the sand, in my opinion, and you can find an overwhelming amount of academic research and study statistic to support what I say.


I also believe that the only way progress will every be made is if people actually address the economic and educational problems of the inner cities instead of just paying lip service to the problems every election cycle.

I have always thought there was definitely some merit to this argument, as expounded by Bill Cosby, Alan Keyes and others (regardless of the former's current real or perceived status in society).

But you know what? American institutions, including law enforcement and the criminal justice system as well as the laws themselves and the very government, DO have a rather substantial "history" of treating the black race unfairly and in a negatively discriminatory (to put it mildly) way, and no matter how much truth there is in "You need to clean up your own house and stop playing the victim", it doesn't change that nor make it in any way acceptable that it (the discrimination and unlevel playing field) still goes on today ...


To edit/add

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/enforcement/

Use whatever numbers you want to pick. On a statistical basis, a law enforcement officer is more than twice as likely to be killed as any Black person.

I see this as an argument that goes nowhere and is is in a hurry to get there. Of COURSE, one would expect law enforcement officers to be more likely to be killed than ANY sector of the GENERAL PUBLIC, because of the dangerous nature of their job and the "facts of life" (guns, guns, guns) in the USA. I don't know what saying this shows. Law enforcement is a dangerous job. It may not sound nice, and I am not advocating nor cheering the violent deaths of law enforcement officers, but it does make more "sense" that cops get killed in the line of duty, at the hands of dangerous and violent people, than it does that citizens who go out to the street to sell loose cigarettes end up dead because of the actions of law enforcement officers.

(shrugs) We are both entitled to our opinions, of course, I'm simply expressing mine.
 
Well, then it is a good thing I quoted post #15, rather than #1. That post, in turn, quoted #14, which quoted... you guessed it, not #1. It might be easier to understand a given post if you start from the top of the thread and read down.

Yeah, Pak AM, you're pissed about police screwing up and killing people. I get that. I'm pretty sure everyone gets that. It needs to stop. Got any ideas?

What some of us seem not to get is that police are not superheroes. They are not fearless kung-fu masters. They are not Doc Holliday. Asking them to use lethal force as a last result is obvious. Expecting them to never use it is... unrealistic. Some of them, when they are scared, shoot their guns. That is what Euc- and I were talking about, when is it appropriate for an officer to shoot their gun? Hopefully the officers are better trained to answer that question than are you and I. Still, two cents are; an officer can and should fire their gun any time they are assaulted with a lethal weapon and their lives are in danger or any time that the officer fears an attacker (even an unarmed one) may take control of their weapon. I'd say the same thing for citizens.

I'm not on the "go big blue" side. I am on the "let's not treat police officers like they are expendable robots" side.

No, I understood whom you were quoting, I have read the whole two pages of the thread. I was just putting a secondary emphasis on the fact that what I meant to comment on here is NOT about cops shooting or defending themselves from people who assault them with deadly weapons ... I can see that the lines can be quite fuzzy, which is one of the main reasons the cops usually walk out of the courtrooms as free men or women, even when they actually get charged in wrongful death or homicide / manslaughter cases etc.

Make no mistake, I wouldn't want a cop's job. But the fact that they choose, for whatever reasons, to do a dangerous job that many of us would not want does not relieve them of the responsibilities that come with it.

Superheroes? Kung Fu masters? Doc Holliday?

Yeah they are people not robots and yes of course all people make mistakes. I don't think anybody expects the police to never make mistakes, but I posted here about what I think was a particularly extreme and egregious example of law enforcement and the keeping of "the public order and safety" gone terribly wrong. Yes, at least no one was actually killed in this one, and yes, I suppose it was a good thing if everyone involved actually had good intentions, as seems to be the case if the account given can be considered credible.

But if you go back to the OP, at the end, it was a former cop with some 30 or more years experience, not PAM the armchair critic and amateur lawyer, who is quoted on what a colossal (and surely avoidable) screw-up this was.
 
No, I understood whom you were quoting, I have read the whole two pages of the thread. I was just putting a secondary emphasis on the fact that what I meant to comment on here is NOT about cops shooting or defending themselves from people who assault them with deadly weapons ... I can see that the lines can be quite fuzzy, which is one of the main reasons the cops usually walk out of the courtrooms as free men or women, even when they actually get charged in wrongful death or homicide / manslaughter cases etc.

Make no mistake, I wouldn't want a cop's job. But the fact that they choose, for whatever reasons, to do a dangerous job that many of us would not want does not relieve them of the responsibilities that come with it.

Superheroes? Kung Fu masters? Doc Holliday?

Yeah they are people not robots and yes of course all people make mistakes. I don't think anybody expects the police to never make mistakes, but I posted here about what I think was a particularly extreme and egregious example of law enforcement and the keeping of "the public order and safety" gone terribly wrong. Yes, at least no one was actually killed in this one, and yes, I suppose it was a good thing if everyone involved actually had good intentions, as seems to be the case if the account given can be considered credible.

But if you go back to the OP, at the end, it was a former cop with some 30 or more years experience, not PAM the armchair critic and amateur lawyer, who is quoted on what a colossal (and surely avoidable) screw-up this was.

Sure. Sorry, got caught up in the point-by-point arguments. I agree with you, things have gone very far off the deep end. Its gotten so bad, I'm wondering how many years they are going to need fix the tension and flare-ups of violence. I don't know what to say except "better training" and "more gun control".

I did see one positive story this week: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ves-matter-hold-a-cookout-and-praise-rolls-in
Its not huge, but its something.
 
Sure. Sorry, got caught up in the point-by-point arguments. I agree with you, things have gone very far off the deep end. Its gotten so bad, I'm wondering how many years they are going to need fix the tension and flare-ups of violence. I don't know what to say except "better training" and "more gun control".

I did see one positive story this week: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...ves-matter-hold-a-cookout-and-praise-rolls-in
Its not huge, but its something.

Yep. I guess neither of us are on the ground in the States to know what it actually "feels like" there, but it sure doesn't look good from here.

Anything that damps down the "us versus them" conflict-ready state of mind is a start, even if it's just a drop in the bucket.

The cookout also echoes a theme that we here at NPR have been covering lately: noncomplementary behavior, the act of departing from an established script when that script is likely to lead to conflict. In this case, both sides departed from what could have been a now-familiar story of clashes between protesters and police.
 
Just out of curiosity... do Canadian police carry guns?
& if so being as they are such close neighbours, do they have similar stats in gun crime & death by cop?


Canadian police do carry guns. A sidearm and a shotgun in the car
Don't know the stats but the Canadian populace is less likely to be carrying
Also Canadians are really nice :D

Thanks a lot NOSOX :)

Canadian police wear gun, but citizen are not allowed to carry gun in public and transportation of firearm are quite controled (in a box in the trunk).
The ration arm per population is similar than in the US. So far the dead by firearm are "none" compare to what happen to the US.

To answer an increase of violence the US population have choose to have MORE gun.
Until they will have this kind of mentality violence from all side will only rise.
 

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