So, the new Energy and Minerals Minister may be a US Citizen

[PhilippeD]

?? Who care about election LOSER who think they are above the law??

Recent news:

Indonesia's president on Monday removed Arcandra Tahar as energy and mining minister, the state secretary said, following reports that he held both Indonesia and U.S. citizenship.
"To address public questions about the citizenship of Arcandra Tahar...the president has decided to honorably remove Arcandra Tahar and appoint Luhut Pandjaitan as interim minister," said State Secretary Pratikno

Just another flip-flop.

Now, the one who win the election have show the door to someone who think who could be above the law.


Following my conversation with Atlantis, I'm surprise they didn't just switch his nationality to Indoneisan... look like he had more interest in his American Nationality than being minister of new energy and minerals.

 

[Davita]

1. Prabowo did not renounce his Indonesian citizenship when Jordan's king gave him honorary Jordanian citizenship. Some Indonesians do not know their own laws, let alone follow their own laws.

Accepting another citizenship, or taking another countries oath of allegiance, automatically renounces Indonesian citizenship.
That didn't happen and he didn't lose his Indonesian citizenship...and that's the Law!

[h=2]Losing Indonesian citizenship[/h]This could happen if:

• a person over the age of 18 obtains another citizenship by his/her own will
• a person does not reject or release another citizenship even he/she has the opportunity to do so
• A person renounces Indonesian citizenship to the President of Indonesia on his/her own will with the provision that he/she is already 18 years old or married, is staying in a foreign country, and is not stateless if he/she loses Indonesian citizenship
• a person joins a foreign military without the President's permission
• a person voluntarily taking another country's oath of allegiance
• a person has a valid passport or other passport-like documents from a foreign country as proof of citizenship
• staying outside Indonesian territory for 5 consecutive years, not stating the will to stay as Indonesian citizen before the 5-year period is over, and not reporting every 5 years to a representative of the Indonesian government

 

[Tupai Hitam]

Yes. Ini negara hukum.

 

[fastpitch17]

I think this guy was one of the very few that qualified in knowledge to be a Minister. No, with current laws he couldn't do it but Indonesia needs to look seriously with burrying the 2006 law and seriously look into bringing in some outside help on a contractual basis.

 

[atlantis]

?? Who care about election LOSER who think they are above the law??

No offense intended, PhilippeD, but I think you misunderstood the citizenship law. We don't "switch" nationality as we switch on and off lights. As I said previously, it's a matter of weeks, not an overnight switch. There is a procedure, which can be hasted but which can not be completed in less than 3 or 4 months, even in hurrying it. The DPR have to be consulted and to give their recommendation. This alone will take weeks.

Also if you read Davita's quote you may notice that Luhut Pandjaitan has been named interim minister, with interim having in english (and as well in french) the notion of provisional or temporary, which leaves room to Jokowi to name Arcandra back in his function if conditions allow.

Joko has not "show the door to someone who think who could be above the law". The official term is memberhentikan dengan hormat which means dismiss with respect. At no time Joko or Kalla have criticized Arcandra by the way.

There was no choice for Joko. At the moment it was proven that Arcandra was a US citizen he could not be a minister as per the law. However unlike presidency and vice presidency, which are functions which can NOT be held by anyone not born Indonesian or having held another citizenship, being a former foreigner and a minister is not constitutionally a problem. Arcandra may at any time after regaining Indonesian citizenship be nominated minister.

 

[William King]

I think this guy was one of the very few that qualified in knowledge to be a Minister. No, with current laws he couldn't do it but Indonesia needs to look seriously with burrying the 2006 law and seriously look into bringing in some outside help on a contractual basis.

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

 

[dafluff]

I think this guy was one of the very few that qualified in knowledge to be a Minister. No, with current laws he couldn't do it but Indonesia needs to look seriously with burrying the 2006 law and seriously look into bringing in some outside help on a contractual basis.

He may have the knowledge, but his handling of this affair has raised doubts about his fitness for the post. He was not honest to the President and to the public, and in particular his "Padang face" commentary was really bad.

 

[fastpitch17]

He may have the knowledge, but his handling of this affair has raised doubts about his fitness for the post. He was not honest to the President and to the public, and in particular his "Padang face" commentary was really bad.

We have no idea how honest he was with the President and his public questioning responses could have been following Administrative orders. Shouldn't the President and his staff take a lit of tge responsibility for this error? Are not orospective Ministers checked out first? For someone that lived in the US for 29 years, wouldn't citizenship been questioned through appropriate channels like the US Embassy? No, don't place all the blame on him. The government itself has more responsibility in this then what he has.

 

[mauricio]

So… is he jobless now? Or stateless? I will not be surprised if someone had suggested him to renounce his US citizenship in order to fast-track the regaining of his Indonesian citizenship.

 

[Davita]

I'm with Atlantis to believe that Arcandra could be re-instated later when he qualifies. It is an embarrassing moment for the government and having Luhut for any length of time, to dictate policy in the energy portfolio, may not be in Indonesia's best interest....see below.
I'm hoping it can open the debate the Gov't was supposed to consider, over 2 years ago, about dual-nationality.

Fabby Tumiwa, the Institute for Essential Services Reform (IESR) executive director has said....

"He advised President Jokowi against keeping Coordinating Maritime Affairs Minister Luhut Pandjaitan as acting energy minister for a prolonged period of time, “considering that Luhut reportedly had a hand in the appointment of Arcandra.”
According to Fabby, Luhut was not the right pick to replace Arcandra, as Luhut was deemed to have many interests in the energy and mineral sector with his reported ownership in PT Toba Sejahtera, which owns four coal mining concessions, an oil and gas block on Madura Island and several power plants, including one in Palu, Central Sulawesi."

 

[Davita]

So… is he jobless now? Or stateless? I will not be surprised if someone had suggested him to renounce his US citizenship in order to fast-track the regaining of his Indonesian citizenship.

There is also the issue of his criminal act of entering Indonesia on a false passport which should be immediately confiscated.
This leaves him as an American citizen and therefore requires some sort of visa to stay in Indonesia....even assuming the Gov't fast-tracks his Indonesian citizenship.
Without being charged, as probably will not occur, he should still need to leave Indonesia and return with a VOA, or other type of stay permit.

This is what happens to all other Indonesians, like my wife, who gives-up RI citizenship automatically by acquiring another.

 

[atlantis]

.
I'm hoping it can open the debate the Gov't was supposed to consider, over 2 years ago, about dual-nationality.

I think it can help. I have read quite a few interesting comments from Indonesian of various walk of life on social network concerning Arcandra's dismissal and dual citizenship. You obviously have the usual stubborn nationalist who seem to be immune to shame considering that most of the time their arguments make little sense but you have also a sizable proportion of people who seem very open to accept that one can be Indonesian AND something else, especially in the young generation.

 

[Nimbus]

Somebody in my social media circle just posted a convincing picture of Arcandra Tahar's U.S. passport. I suspect that somebody in Imigrasi dug up his arrival record and pulled the passport scan. If he entered Indonesia using his american passport, then he has not broken immigration law.

 

[fastpitch17]

Somebody in my social media circle just posted a convincing picture of Arcandra Tahar's U.S. passport. I suspect that somebody in Imigrasi dug up his arrival record and pulled the passport scan. If he entered Indonesia using his american passport, then he has not broken immigration law.

The passport says issued in 2012. Doesn't that seem like a lot of hair loss in that amount of time?

 

[Davita]

Somebody in my social media circle just posted a convincing picture of Arcandra Tahar's U.S. passport. I suspect that somebody in Imigrasi dug up his arrival record and pulled the passport scan. If he entered Indonesia using his american passport, then he has not broken immigration law.

Of course he can be permitted to enter as a foreigner but, according to Gov't spokesperson, he was invited by the President to come for this position in the RI Cabinet. If he entered on a foreign passport, with a visa, then either the Gov't is complicit in giving a foreigner a job....or they were naive to say the least.

The Gov't spokesperson already admitted he arrived on an Indonesian passport and, if he is also a USA citizen, that constitutes an illegal act.

Associated Press....
"Tahar, 45, spent more than 20 years in the United States and reportedly has both U.S. and Indonesian passports. He entered Indonesia using the Indonesian one when he was summoned home by Jokowi to take the post."

 

[dafluff]

“He has two passports: US and Indonesian passports,” Yasonna said on Monday.


However, he claimed that Arcandra’s Indonesian citizenship was still intact because it took a ministerial decree to officially revoke someone’s citizenship.


“Legally, there has been no Indonesian citizenship revocation process through the Law and Human Rights Ministry for the minister,” he said, adding that Arcandra had returned to Indonesia and had decided to give up his US citizenship.

The above from the Jakarta Post is attributed to the Justice Minister. This goes against what we have already discussed here, namely that loss of citizenship is automatic if you obtain another citizenship. Is he right? Was he misquoted? Is Davita's wife and many thousands of other Indonesian in her situation actually still citizens of Indonesia? Or should this be filed under the ever larger pile of evidence that you don't actually need to know stuff to be appointed minsiter.

 

[Davita]

Thanks for posting dafluff...I was going to but worried it might appear as if I had a personal grudge.

On the same page in JP, next to the article you have mentioned, is the other to do with preventing this young girl (Gloria) from participating in the flag ceremony because she has dual-nationality She is only 16.

Here is what an a Police Chief allegedly said about Gloria....

"Jakarta Garrison I chief Brig. Gen. Yosua Pandit Sembiring, whose unit is in charge of the Paskibraka boot camp, said the State Palace would be off-limits for Gloria.
“Citizens will lose their citizenship if they have a [foreign] passport. Gloria has that,†said Yosua. “We must comply with the law.â€

On the same page here is what the Justice Minister allegedly said about Arcandra...

"He has two passports: US and Indonesian passports,†Yasonna said on Monday. However, he claimed that Arcandra’s Indonesian citizenship was still intact because it took a ministerial decree to officially revoke someone’s citizenship."

Cannot this President get his team together...both these officials need to resign....they are both wrong!

 

[dafluff]

Thanks for posting dafluff...I was going to but worried it might appear as if I had a personal grudge.

On the same page in JP, next to the article you have mentioned, is the other to do with preventing this young girl (Gloria) from participating in the flag ceremony because she has dual-nationality She is only 16.

Here is what an a Police Chief allegedly said about Gloria....

"Jakarta Garrison I chief Brig. Gen. Yosua Pandit Sembiring, whose unit is in charge of the Paskibraka boot camp, said the State Palace would be off-limits for Gloria.
“Citizens will lose their citizenship if they have a [foreign] passport. Gloria has that,” said Yosua. “We must comply with the law.”

On the same page here is what the Justice Minister allegedly said about Arcandra...

"He has two passports: US and Indonesian passports,” Yasonna said on Monday. However, he claimed that Arcandra’s Indonesian citizenship was still intact because it took a ministerial decree to officially revoke someone’s citizenship."

Cannot this President get his team together...both these officials need to resign....they are both wrong!

Yep, both high-profile dual citizenship articles were on the front page of today's Jakarta Post. I was reading it while shaking my head...it is no wonder that you can't get a straight answer out of low level Indonesian officials when even the ministers and generals have scant idea what they're talking about, but do not hesitate in giving their opinion.


I am more upset about Gloria's case however, because her citizenship status is entirely not her fault. For those interested, there is a thread discussing that case here.

 

[atlantis]

The above from the Jakarta Post is attributed to the Justice Minister. This goes against what we have already discussed here,

Have we discussed it here? If it has been discussed I apologize because I missed it and would have corrected it. As the Minister of Justice stated it requires:
1. A procedure,
2. A decision.

There is no such thing than an automatic loss of citizenship. It has to be documented and then acted by two ministers (Depkumham and Depdagri through Capil) before it becomes effective.

I have read in the thread that there would be an issue of his criminal act of entering Indonesia on a false passport. I beg to differ. Not that I want to defend him (to be honest I still have the Padang face bit stuck in the throat) but he has not committed any crime while entering on his paspor RI. I understand that many would like to stone him to death, but saying that he would have committed a crime is legally groundless (and therefore dangerous).

 

[Davita]

Have we discussed it here? If it has been discussed I apologize because I missed it and would have corrected it. As the Minister of Justice stated it requires:
1. A procedure,
2. A decision.

There is no such thing than an automatic loss of citizenship. It has to be documented and then acted by two ministers (Depkumham and Depdagri through Capil) before it becomes effective.

I have read in the thread that there would be an issue of his criminal act of entering Indonesia on a false passport. I beg to differ. Not that I want to defend him (to be honest I still have the Padang face bit stuck in the throat) but he has not committed any crime while entering on his paspor RI. I understand that many would like to stone him to death, but saying that he would have committed a crime is legally groundless (and therefore dangerous).

That's good news...then are you saying my wife can apply for an Indonesian passport as she has not lost her Indonesian citizenship and we have applied for Sosbuds/Kitas/Kitap over the years when she didn't need it.

The last time she tried to renew her passport at the Consul in Vancouver it was rejected on the ground she had taken Canadian Citizenship, there was no procedure nor a decision as they said it was automatic. Were they wrong some 20 years ago or has the system been changed?